Thoughts on using unground flower for cannabutter?

LeastExpectedGrower

LeastExpectedGrower

Well-Known Member
I've been playing around this fall and winter with cannabis infusion making, tinctures, etc. Eventually I'll get to more foodie stuff, but I've got plenty of jars of decent cannabis from my summer grow, and more on the way...so no worries about playing around in the research kitchen.

Thought I'd try some rice-crispy style treats...and the lovely Mrs. L.E.G. isn't a fan of 'herbal' flavor. Diving into the deep end of the pond without testing the waters is something of a specialty for me; so on thinking about making 'golden dragon' from whole bud to limit the amount of chlorophyll made me wonder if this would be effective when making butter.

So, rather than ask before my attempt, I figured I'd ask now; half way through (I don't always make logical choices). Everything you look at says to grind your cannabis, ostensibly to evenly decarb and to have 'more surface area'. That also ends up tearing open the plants' cell walls and allows lots of the green stuff in. We also know that the THC is in trichomes on the exterior, not in the plant itself. But will the butter be able to access the THC in the trichomes without the mechanical action of grinding? With alcohol, I believe it dissolves the exterior, but does oil/fat and heat do the same?

What I've done:
-4g (x2) into bags of smaller buds or pieces of them Fingernail-ish sized). Decarbed at 200f for 2 hours by sous vide. This should thoroughly decarb whether broken down or not.
-each 4g decarbed into Ball jar with 4oz (one stick) of butter (unsalted Kerry Gold for higher fat content), NO water.
-Jars submersed in sous vide bath at 185f for 4 hours, each jar agitated well for about 30 seconds each half hour then back in the bath.
-Strained into new jars warm water added to 'wash'. Kept warm in bath a few minutes.
-Each jar poured into a wider container and put in the fridge to separate/harden.

The straining & second jarring:

IMG_2728.jpg

IMG_2729.jpg

So, yeah, not green at all, but will it have any actual THC in it?

Thoughts?
 
Boatguy

Boatguy

Well-Known Member
LeastExpectedGrower said:
I've been playing around this fall and winter with cannabis infusion making, tinctures, etc. Eventually I'll get to more foodie stuff, but I've got plenty of jars of decent cannabis from my summer grow, and more on the way...so no worries about playing around in the research kitchen.

Thought I'd try some rice-crispy style treats...and the lovely Mrs. L.E.G. isn't a fan of 'herbal' flavor. Diving into the deep end of the pond without testing the waters is something of a specialty for me; so on thinking about making 'golden dragon' from whole bud to limit the amount of chlorophyll made me wonder if this would be effective when making butter.

So, rather than ask before my attempt, I figured I'd ask now; half way through (I don't always make logical choices). Everything you look at says to grind your cannabis, ostensibly to evenly decarb and to have 'more surface area'. That also ends up tearing open the plants' cell walls and allows lots of the green stuff in. We also know that the THC is in trichomes on the exterior, not in the plant itself. But will the butter be able to access the THC in the trichomes without the mechanical action of grinding? With alcohol, I believe it dissolves the exterior, but does oil/fat and heat do the same?

What I've done:
-4g (x2) into bags of smaller buds or pieces of them Fingernail-ish sized). Decarbed at 200f for 2 hours by sous vide. This should thoroughly decarb whether broken down or not.
-each 4g decarbed into Ball jar with 4oz (one stick) of butter (unsalted Kerry Gold for higher fat content), NO water.
-Jars submersed in sous vide bath at 185f for 4 hours, each jar agitated well for about 30 seconds each half hour then back in the bath.
-Strained into new jars warm water added to 'wash'. Kept warm in bath a few minutes.
-Each jar poured into a wider container and put in the fridge to separate/harden.

The straining & second jarring:

View attachment 5063042

View attachment 5063043

So, yeah, not green at all, but will it have any actual THC in it?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I have considered doing this with qwet or iso hash, but havent gotten to it. Curious to hear your results.
I hate the taste, and smell of the shit. Even my gummies with a ridiculous amount of flavoring were still pretty strong tasting
 
LeastExpectedGrower

LeastExpectedGrower

Well-Known Member
Boatguy said:
I have considered doing this with qwet or iso hash, but havent gotten to it. Curious to hear your results.
I hate the taste, and smell of the shit. Even my gummies with a ridiculous amount of flavoring were still pretty strong tasting
Click to expand...
I have some alcohol tincture that's reducing to FECO in the experimental kitchen as well, so that's another option. I would have done the standard Decarb-Grind-Butter-Waterwash but I had success with the cold alcohol wash, so I figured why not. I don't *love* the flavor but can handle it, not so much for my wife. Also, she'd like to gift some foodstuffs to a few friends who have never experienced any, so I want them to be good tasting as well as active, but they don't need to be terribly strong for noobs.

Bignutes said:
Eat it and see
Click to expand...
Yep. Next step. ;)

Herb & Suds said:
I always am nervous to
But smear a half teaspoon on toast wait one hour and decide
Click to expand...
Toast? So fancy. Spoon meet mouth. ;) Tonight instead of my usual half a teaspoon of honey I'll try the butter. If it has anything behind it, I'll make my first batch of 'treats' tomorrow.
 
Boatguy

Boatguy

Well-Known Member
LeastExpectedGrower said:
I have some alcohol tincture that's reducing to FECO in the experimental kitchen as well, so that's another option. I would have done the standard Decarb-Grind-Butter-Waterwash but I had success with the cold alcohol wash, so I figured why not.
Click to expand...
I was talking about a fresh frozen batch of herb doused in ice cold alcohol. After evaporated off, dissolved in butter, and to the double boiler for 6 hrs or so. No need to decarb if the boil is that long.
Shouldnt taste much like herb at all i would hope. Hope i say
 
LeastExpectedGrower

LeastExpectedGrower

Well-Known Member
Boatguy said:
I was talking about a fresh frozen batch of herb doused in ice cold alcohol. After evaporated off, dissolved in butter, and to the double boiler for 6 hrs or so. No need to decarb if the boil is that long.
Shouldnt taste much like herb at all i would hope. Hope i say
Click to expand...
;) That's always the goal, but not sure we get there. I haven't touched the tincture or the jar reducing to FECO yet. I'd kind of hoped that I could use the end product of the reduction and not have it be too flavorful, so good to know that's not necessarily the path forward. I decarbed the cannabis before I did the alcohol soak so that's all set as far as I know.

...I also plan on doing a 'rice crispy treat' that has cocoa crispies but also I'll add some special cocoa powder I have from King Arthur; it's 'black cocoa' which is super flavorful and dark, so it will hide any residual.
 
LeastExpectedGrower

LeastExpectedGrower

Well-Known Member
TerryTeacosy said:
Have you considered making caps instead of edibles? Yes, it's an extra step in the process, but since they just go straight down the hatch, there's no taste to contend-with.
Click to expand...
I have, but I haven't done it yet. The CBD we use on a nightly basis is in gel-caps and I love this form of dosing. I love having lab-tested & concretely dosed amounts. One of these moments I plan on doing this. I haven't messed with capsules since the late 80's when we were getting MDMA mailed in from Texas. I can certainly work this, just need to figure out how strong to make things and go from there.

Still want to make some treats in the meantime though...Just working to make some that are 'comfy' for those who don't want to go to heavy or have too much taste.
 
T

TerryTeacosy

Well-Known Member
LeastExpectedGrower said:
I have, but I haven't done it yet. The CBD we use on a nightly basis is in gel-caps and I love this form of dosing. I love having lab-tested & concretely dosed amounts. One of these moments I plan on doing this. I haven't messed with capsules since the late 80's when we were getting MDMA mailed in from Texas. I can certainly work this, just need to figure out how strong to make things and go from there.

Still want to make some treats in the meantime though...Just working to make some that are 'comfy' for those who don't want to go to heavy or have too much taste.
Click to expand...
Consistency of dose is why I like doing caps (that & I don't smoke anymore), as the whole mix is homogenised prior to final packaging.

Since you're doing small experimental batches, it would be a simple matter to work-out individual doses (lots of online calculators out there). If you start with a known & consistent mg/ml main batch, it can be cut-back incrementally with equal amounts of oil/butter to create 1/2->1/4->1/8th strength caps & work-out from there what works for you by taking a combination of different strength caps until you find that "sweet spot".

I do this for myself @ 100g/900g of coconut oil (the numbers were arbitrarily chosen as being easy, as that's how I buy my oil) & can get about 1200 caps from that, which I've found gives everything a very pleasant "sideways nudge" without being too strong. I cut that back to 1/4-strength caps for my sister, who has reduced her 20-year (prescribed) oxycodone intake by half.:D

If you're offering edible "treats" to friends, just let them know in an off-hand way that they "may" notice a slight weed flavour, but play it down, or don't mention it at all. By the time the goodies kick-in, they will have forgotten the intial taste anyway......;)
 
LeastExpectedGrower

LeastExpectedGrower

Well-Known Member
Strength test.

Whelp this morning I pulled the butter/waterwash out of the fridge and it wasn't 'set' I think by agitating the mix pretty good the fat droplets didn't pool as much as form small droplets in the milky water. I reheated it so it re-melted then hardened and I could certainly pour the water off.

After that I scooped a measured teaspoon and dropped that in my mouth. About 2 hours later I needed a good lay-down...for about 3 hours. :rolleyes: Now I'm just sort of cruising on it...

So yeah, it works. I don't know how strong it SHOULD be, but there's some activity to it. ..but I think I'll go-ahead with some treats.

What I can say is it has very very little cannabis flavor and remains buttery yellow not green. Next time I'll probably double the amount I decarb/soak and see where that goes.
 
ComputerSaysNo

ComputerSaysNo

Well-Known Member
LeastExpectedGrower said:
After that I scooped a measured teaspoon and dropped that in my mouth. About 2 hours later I needed a good lay-down...for about 3 hours. :rolleyes: Now I'm just sort of cruising on it...

So yeah, it works. I don't know how strong it SHOULD be, but there's some activity to it. ..but I think I'll go-ahead with some treats.
Click to expand...
What you made (8g into ~220g of butter) is very close to what I've made a few weeks ago. In my case a "measured teaspoon" of the butter would probably be too much already. I've taken less than you have and it lasted for almost 24 hours, and it was too strong in the first half for my preference.

As far as decarb goes, maybe the temperatures were a bit too low. Check out this comprehensive article: https://skunkpharmresearch.com/decarboxylation/

According to their research, the optimal parameters are ~30 minutes at around 250F, if you go longer you get a more stoney effect.

(Of course, if you're baking with the butter the decarb will happen anyway, so it won't matter for that use.)

For my butter, I've done that (about half hour at 120C in the oven), and then a good 4 hours at around 90-100C in the butter. No washing with water, but that should not affect the cannabinoid content at all, since they are not water soluble. My butter has a pretty strong taste to it, I don't find it repulsive like many, but could do without it.

Will try the water wash with some of the butter to see how much that changes things (the water is supposed to remove a good amount of the taste from the butter).
 
Last edited:
ComputerSaysNo

ComputerSaysNo

Well-Known Member
Here's another video that I found, which is pretty close to what I did, but he does the water wash as well. Not grinding the flower to small bits does not seem to make a difference.

(Edit: clarifying the butter can be done much easier than in the video by pouring the liquid butter into a freezer bag, then having the milk solids settle into one corner of the bag, then cutting off one corner of the bag and draining the milk solids.)

 
Last edited:
T

TerryTeacosy

Well-Known Member
Wow! You guys are really over-complicating things!

Stop looking-up You-Tube video's & get back to fundamentals (I won't do that for you - do your own extensive research & learn....). Take a step back.

Obviously, there are going to be variables in any process like this, but just stick with ONE thing & adjust your results from there, based on your OWN experiences & available raw material. You can always cut it back if it's too much. The "too much" experience should be yours to explore...& good luck with it ('been there - done that!).

Everyone is going to have different responses to any particular "mix", particularly when it comes to edibles, which can last for a LOOOOOONG time.

What may be "mediocre" for YOU may be "Stop the world, I want to get off!!" for another.

Don't presume for others & have some consideration for them before you offer it.

I'm going to step-down off my soap-box now & drop a cap of CBN-heavy stuff that I deliberately created for sleep.
 
cindysid

cindysid

Well-Known Member
I don’t grind my material. I throw it in the oven for an hour @ 240F, put it in melted butter on the stovetop. I add a couple of cups of water ( I’m using an oz of good trim per pound of butter). Simmer for 30 minutes, strain and refrigerate. I can’t stand the taste of brownies without weed. My butter tastes great! All the nasty stuff falls into the water which I wash away after the butter solidifies.
 
LeastExpectedGrower

LeastExpectedGrower

Well-Known Member
ComputerSaysNo said:
Here's another video that I found, which is pretty close to what I did, but he does the water wash as well. Not grinding the flower to small bits does not seem to make a difference.

(Edit: clarifying the butter can be done much easier than in the video by pouring the liquid butter into a freezer bag, then having the milk solids settle into one corner of the bag, then cutting off one corner of the bag and draining the milk solids.)

Click to expand...

ComputerSaysNo said:
What you made (8g into ~220g of butter) is very close to what I've made a few weeks ago. In my case a "measured teaspoon" of the butter would probably be too much already. I've taken less than you have and it lasted for almost 24 hours, and it was too strong in the first half for my preference.

As far as decarb goes, maybe the temperatures were a bit too low. Check out this comprehensive article: https://skunkpharmresearch.com/decarboxylation/

According to their research, the optimal parameters are ~30 minutes at around 250F, if you go longer you get a more stoney effect.

(Of course, if you're baking with the butter the decarb will happen anyway, so it won't matter for that use.)

For my butter, I've done that (about half hour at 120C in the oven), and then a good 4 hours at around 90-100C in the butter. No washing with water, but that should not affect the cannabinoid content at all, since they are not water soluble. My butter has a pretty strong taste to it, I don't find it repulsive like many, but could do without it.

Will try the water wash with some of the butter to see how much that changes things (the water is supposed to remove a good amount of the taste from the butter).
Click to expand...
The teaspoon full was a good experiment. ;) It proved to me that it's strong enough for me to batch out some treats and expect some kind of effect from them. I intentionally went with 4g per half cup so that it wasn't screamin' strong but you also lose some of your volume in the removal of milk solids, etc.

The thing I was surprised at is that without the grinding you have almost no chlorophyll in the end product, no color from it and the flavor is very mild. I was concerned that that also equalled 'no punch.'

I've done decarbing in jars in the oven at 250f as well, but the idea behind moving to sous vide (beyond the fact that I have one and can leverage it for a bunch of uses) is that it's super even and consistent in heating. Which theoretically means a really precise decarb. Cannabis goes into a bag and air removed/sealed sunk into a water-bath that circulates at a precise temperature. The catch is that my unit only goes up to 208f degrees (sous vide isn't boiling)...so I did some searching on best practices for it. And while I see that some in the Sous-Weed world are doing 196-198f, I ended up here:



Screen Shot 2022-01-10 at 9.29.44 AM.png

So, you net great conversion and not over-conversion...and doing it in a sealed bag underwater means no smell at all.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top