Apache AT600 led vs 1000w HPS Blue Dream Grow
- Thread starter Greengenes707
- Start date
Greengenes707
Well-Known Member
Who. I feel like I would have come across that. Would love to know my self?
hyroot
Well-Known Member
I don't remember who. But I'm pretty sure it was within the last few months. I'll dig around. I know there's only a small handful of people on here that have or had at200's. I think they were referring to electrical efficiency not photosynthetic efficiency.
foreverflyhi
Well-Known Member
Scotch said it, he left riu for personal reasons i believe, he said he will b lurking tho
Edit: not sure what he exactly said tho, dont know if he said mid bin
Edit: not sure what he exactly said tho, dont know if he said mid bin
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Greengenes707
Well-Known Member
Exactly...who owns one...me, puff, scotch, and now perge.
I'm pretty sure I know what you are referring to...It was Supra and he said until they come out and say what they use, he can only be assumed to be mid bins. Nothing but a statement calling them out to say otherwise. I believe it was in the "let's talk about yields" thread.
I don't believe you would be able to tell the bins of any chip once in the end product. It's the reel/box/recite/invoice that would show that.
foreverflyhi
Well-Known Member
Think u missed my last post
Greengenes707
Well-Known Member
Scotch said a51=400 at200=600...he was exaggerating but he said on many occasions that he preferred the AT. And I followed him closely. Don't remember any bin talk. Let me know if you guys ever find it. Otherwise I highly doubt it seeing everything else the AT's are made with.Think u missed my last post
foreverflyhi
Well-Known Member
This is not the post i was speaking about, i rememeber reading one a bit more detailed i think.... But either way cant seem to find it. But he clearly says he took it apart.
Greengenes707
Well-Known Member
He did take it apart, I know that, he asked me about it...but how would he get the bin#'s??? They aren't on the chips or anywhere on the unit it's self. Plus you only need to take the lenses off to get to the chips. He did that first day. He went inside later/recently. Nothing cool on the inside, just mean well drivers, and fatty fins.
Can every a51 owner go into and confirm their units bin#...no, it's a part number on his website. He never showed a xt-e engraved with the R3 bin...because that's not how chips are labeled/sorted.
If there was a way to just look at the chip and tell the bins we would have the information already. I own both an at200 and at600 with the chips and have been in physical contact with them on numerous lens swapping occasions. Nichia 119 or 219 for sure. Bins#??? Some one prove what they are or aren't with some real data not just she said he said...out of all this time I have been rocking apache's(new and old) no one has ever brought up anything of the sort to me. Just that they don't know what chips. Then we did, but not the bins...still the same situation now. I usually get put into the loop some way or another when serious AT conversations come up...this would definitely qualify as a serious conversation.
SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
Yep the Nichias have a very wide range of bins so it is important info and there would be no way to tell unless we had a known bin to compare against. You can mount the known bin on a small heatsink and record the stabilized temp. Then using the same ambient temp, same driver and same heatsink, mount the unknown nichia and check its stabilized temperature. That would give us a repeatable way to compare the relative radiometric efficiency.
Another way we could check is using a known bin and any old light meter. Regardless of the meter's accuracy, as long as the wavelengths were the same we would get a relative comparison.
The easier way would be for the manufacturer to just tell us, but then again there is nothing to stop them from simply lying besides the methods above (speaking in general, not accusing Apache of poor ethics).
Another way we could check is using a known bin and any old light meter. Regardless of the meter's accuracy, as long as the wavelengths were the same we would get a relative comparison.
The easier way would be for the manufacturer to just tell us, but then again there is nothing to stop them from simply lying besides the methods above (speaking in general, not accusing Apache of poor ethics).
DCobeen
Well-Known Member
good morning all. i also ran across that thread somewhere and it wasnt the new at200 he said had mid bin led's it was the at120's and the old style 200 's with uvb lights on them or whatever size it was. he had a few pics of them apart and a pile of cases. That is what i remember reading.
Greengenes707
Well-Known Member
I would love to see proof of theses claims.
Like supra says...it could be found out if you had a single chip from the unit and a known one...but that isn't going to happen either. I don't have the equipment...or a single chip on a star from a current AT model. OR old for that matter.
So please show me some actual support for this. Otherwise it has no validity at all. Nichia's are better than cree's...specifically xte to 119b. Bins matter but there is no support shown ghtey aren't top bins either.
And also A51 has only listed their original sgs and the xgs...nothing for the new 150's. No saying it isn't real, but he didn't post it. Speaking of posting stats...So is just putting a part number of a good bin part number up there good enough...I believe him, but the claim is no more out there than yours of AT and mid bins. Just a copy and pasted part number if you want get down to validity.
Suck's we don't know the bin...but that's the way it is and saying un supported things isn't going to change that.
And again...anytime against any other light(s) on the market.
EDIT:
In addition, apache runs theirs softer than a51. Longevity, cooling, and output/w all higher and better at the lower current.
I don't want to argue...specially about this shit. Find the real proof...just more reason for them to come out and prove otherwise if you actually have something. But until then...let's just watch my girls.
Like supra says...it could be found out if you had a single chip from the unit and a known one...but that isn't going to happen either. I don't have the equipment...or a single chip on a star from a current AT model. OR old for that matter.
So please show me some actual support for this. Otherwise it has no validity at all. Nichia's are better than cree's...specifically xte to 119b. Bins matter but there is no support shown ghtey aren't top bins either.
And also A51 has only listed their original sgs and the xgs...nothing for the new 150's. No saying it isn't real, but he didn't post it. Speaking of posting stats...So is just putting a part number of a good bin part number up there good enough...I believe him, but the claim is no more out there than yours of AT and mid bins. Just a copy and pasted part number if you want get down to validity.
Suck's we don't know the bin...but that's the way it is and saying un supported things isn't going to change that.
And again...anytime against any other light(s) on the market.
EDIT:
In addition, apache runs theirs softer than a51. Longevity, cooling, and output/w all higher and better at the lower current.
I don't want to argue...specially about this shit. Find the real proof...just more reason for them to come out and prove otherwise if you actually have something. But until then...let's just watch my girls.
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Scotch089
Well-Known Member
Just for the record I didn't state anything about the LEDs, and yes I did crack open the case, all I can say is "YES..!" It was more a self reassurance that they DO use the best they can be their hands on.. Worth the warranty? Hell with the warranty... Next panel, yea, I'll leave together, but I don't see that light coming undone at any point.
Green is right there is nothing special under the hood, I just wanted a better view of the heatsink and see how things were wired... Every thing about the AT is made for their application, big ass heatsinks, casings, PCB's, lenses, everything is for AT. Not an off brand generic renamed part. And I also think it is the first led panel I have personally owned that truly crosses LEDs over into the HID game ("g/w, g/sq.ft....") Dawg did a stellar job with the SGS' but I still feel like it is it's "own" in the LED game, but maybe not to the extent of part-for-part, or replacing HIDs entirely. Jbone is cool, once we got past the rough edges you are on the right track, whether t be 250w HID vs. 167w or 400, 600, whatever, my point of stating THAT was more to give the shop owners an idea in the SIGNIFICANT 1.) Coverage differences, 2,) Intensity differences [using the same/similar "ratio or spectrum"], 3.) the physical differences [weight, build, etc.]
But I would say the AT could keep up with a 250, if not a 400w with a good grower. the SGS could outperform 150w HID np but to say the two companies are equal is really silly... I do want to get my hands on an XGS but at that point I'd rather use the better WWs (ehhhh supe, let me know how many z4s you have left and/or can get? I'd love 6 of em for now. Too late?)
Jbone good luck with the LED endeavor, green you are just rippin it up brother, I'm keeping up with a few threads- and this is easily where it's at. Great job dude, hope life's treatin you right. And due credit to SDS (eyeroll) for that badass DIY build.
I should be back around before too long, I found three seedlings surviving in my mix pile on the tarp- I decided to save them and so far only 1 is looking like it is going to make it. The other one has ONLY cotyledons! Hope everyone is doing well and be SAFE
Green is right there is nothing special under the hood, I just wanted a better view of the heatsink and see how things were wired... Every thing about the AT is made for their application, big ass heatsinks, casings, PCB's, lenses, everything is for AT. Not an off brand generic renamed part. And I also think it is the first led panel I have personally owned that truly crosses LEDs over into the HID game ("g/w, g/sq.ft....") Dawg did a stellar job with the SGS' but I still feel like it is it's "own" in the LED game, but maybe not to the extent of part-for-part, or replacing HIDs entirely. Jbone is cool, once we got past the rough edges you are on the right track, whether t be 250w HID vs. 167w or 400, 600, whatever, my point of stating THAT was more to give the shop owners an idea in the SIGNIFICANT 1.) Coverage differences, 2,) Intensity differences [using the same/similar "ratio or spectrum"], 3.) the physical differences [weight, build, etc.]
But I would say the AT could keep up with a 250, if not a 400w with a good grower. the SGS could outperform 150w HID np but to say the two companies are equal is really silly... I do want to get my hands on an XGS but at that point I'd rather use the better WWs (ehhhh supe, let me know how many z4s you have left and/or can get? I'd love 6 of em for now. Too late?)
Jbone good luck with the LED endeavor, green you are just rippin it up brother, I'm keeping up with a few threads- and this is easily where it's at. Great job dude, hope life's treatin you right. And due credit to SDS (eyeroll) for that badass DIY build.
I should be back around before too long, I found three seedlings surviving in my mix pile on the tarp- I decided to save them and so far only 1 is looking like it is going to make it. The other one has ONLY cotyledons! Hope everyone is doing well and be SAFE
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captainmorgan
Well-Known Member
I don't understand this statement. If both companies use top of the line parts why don't they compare? Are Apache assembled by elf's or do they use unicorn blood in their manufacturing?
Scotch089
Well-Known Member
Lol... because its not worth the bickering! the only other guy I know that can speak to it on both ends, is puff. once you have both panels setting in front of you, then you know to what extent I am speaking to, or trying to explain...
1.)One is a closer to a square, the other a rectangle, and their footprints show that respectively.Both do not give off a perfect square footproont- but one better than the other.
2.) and I think this a good, obvious point where it starts speaking to the people in the company itself, the time and thought, effort and work they put into the actual design AND performance of their panels.... 2.) Fans, One uses smaller fans, running faster (assuming), and on the side of the panel itself, pulling air THROUGH, or OVER the fins of the heatsink, whereas the other uses the accustomed "out-the-top" move, and if you look in SDS' thread, he drew up a shmancy little schematic of what happens to the air..... just pulled right out the top, not necessarily drawn over/through the fins, yes this still cools things down, but is the air's temps that is drawn over the fins risen enough on the short path through and out the top? Or could the draw/pull on those big fans be used more efficiently? IDK (for the record) but, I have a gut feeling they did it right the first time, Apache has not redesigned SHIT since they released their first panel, which again, tells me they did their homework (and Im sure trial and error- BUT behind the curtains before release, and not "along the way...") before they decided to release ANY generation of their panels, the SGS is what... the.. 5th? Again, not ragging on any one at all, I enjoy all my panels, but it is what it is.
3.) Speaking to the design/thought/time/price put into the panels, one panel uses what I am assuming is custom fitted lenses. That would require a custom Mold/Casting to make, so not only did they get their hands on some "cool looking, or different" lenses, they went through all the shit to find a business or person(s) to make they Mold so then they could take THAT to a press and have their lenses made... or however those things are made. Either way, the point is there. Whereas the second company uses lenses that look like the ones I could purchase from Digikey/Mouser/whatthefuckever, and covered with a frosted plastic (which is STILL effort- EH still had to go thorugh and get those custom cut/made, but to the same extent or cost of the custom lenses...?) <-- see my point?
4.) Drivers, my AT200...yea..... here we go, get ready. has x2 96w Meanwell Drivers in them, and VERY tidy work. Now, I have not opened my SGS, but it wouldn't matter if I did- he doesnt redeem secondhand warranties, just so you all know. but I have rebuilt, tore down, etc the 2012 A51's, and those were not any better in a "wiring sense" than my ProGrows, chinese drivers, but I didn't see any resistors? So hey, plus there? ?Anyways, but I have noticed the wiring strung across the PCB through the fan ports on my SGS while its on- more noticeable when teh reds are on but they are there. Makes me wonder, again, whats in there. Supra has brought Driver Efficiency to the table in another thread.
5.) Warranties, I asked one about the warranty- at the time It was a lifetime (on my older panels), that QUICKLY went out the window entirely for some reason, even if only 1 out 3 were faulty. When I sold those they made it a point to remind me those didn't carry over. And the second company I was on the phone with laughed and agreed that if anything ever happened to the panel they would take care of it. Not really cocky but kindve surprised I even asked...
6.) LEDs, I don't know. Whatever, they both use reputable brands and thats the only reason I have em. Best of what we can get, pre assembled.
7.) and you gotta think about what kind of application these things are for... I think THATS what puts me so off on this comparison, one is OBVIOUSLY a greenhouse garden light, narrow lenses for high hanging--> to cast a smaller shadow over your crop, but still get as serious of light from em as you can. Fans on the side, im assuming to AT LEAST help with moisture not settling in the wrong spot, The other light is the quietest thing I've ever been able to put my ears to the test with (bullshit, but it IS the quietest panel I've had to date, and the only one I see topping that are a group of Hans) and the wider style of the panel suggest a smaller space, such as a closet footprint, or cabinet.
Idk, in the words of Kat WIlliams, I got shit ta do today! I really like both companies, and use each of them for their respective purposes to fill my needs, <-- yes, I do love my panels. and they love me too. Im using my SGS over my 3 (actual probably 1) seeding right now, because I can give em all white, and runs quiet (for my quiet part of the area), and lower draw/intensity more suitable for what I am doing.
Ta-da.
Sorry Green :/ I know... you're just trying to do your thing, we should just start a fucking sticky for this already, I vote chroni, psu and Hy to come up with the Title.
Edit: sorry puff I hadn't meant it in a radical way, it is all about preference and as for cap'n I could never come at him the wrong way, much respect in his direction.
1.)One is a closer to a square, the other a rectangle, and their footprints show that respectively.Both do not give off a perfect square footproont- but one better than the other.
2.) and I think this a good, obvious point where it starts speaking to the people in the company itself, the time and thought, effort and work they put into the actual design AND performance of their panels.... 2.) Fans, One uses smaller fans, running faster (assuming), and on the side of the panel itself, pulling air THROUGH, or OVER the fins of the heatsink, whereas the other uses the accustomed "out-the-top" move, and if you look in SDS' thread, he drew up a shmancy little schematic of what happens to the air..... just pulled right out the top, not necessarily drawn over/through the fins, yes this still cools things down, but is the air's temps that is drawn over the fins risen enough on the short path through and out the top? Or could the draw/pull on those big fans be used more efficiently? IDK (for the record) but, I have a gut feeling they did it right the first time, Apache has not redesigned SHIT since they released their first panel, which again, tells me they did their homework (and Im sure trial and error- BUT behind the curtains before release, and not "along the way...") before they decided to release ANY generation of their panels, the SGS is what... the.. 5th? Again, not ragging on any one at all, I enjoy all my panels, but it is what it is.
3.) Speaking to the design/thought/time/price put into the panels, one panel uses what I am assuming is custom fitted lenses. That would require a custom Mold/Casting to make, so not only did they get their hands on some "cool looking, or different" lenses, they went through all the shit to find a business or person(s) to make they Mold so then they could take THAT to a press and have their lenses made... or however those things are made. Either way, the point is there. Whereas the second company uses lenses that look like the ones I could purchase from Digikey/Mouser/whatthefuckever, and covered with a frosted plastic (which is STILL effort- EH still had to go thorugh and get those custom cut/made, but to the same extent or cost of the custom lenses...?) <-- see my point?
4.) Drivers, my AT200...yea..... here we go, get ready. has x2 96w Meanwell Drivers in them, and VERY tidy work. Now, I have not opened my SGS, but it wouldn't matter if I did- he doesnt redeem secondhand warranties, just so you all know. but I have rebuilt, tore down, etc the 2012 A51's, and those were not any better in a "wiring sense" than my ProGrows, chinese drivers, but I didn't see any resistors? So hey, plus there? ?Anyways, but I have noticed the wiring strung across the PCB through the fan ports on my SGS while its on- more noticeable when teh reds are on but they are there. Makes me wonder, again, whats in there. Supra has brought Driver Efficiency to the table in another thread.
5.) Warranties, I asked one about the warranty- at the time It was a lifetime (on my older panels), that QUICKLY went out the window entirely for some reason, even if only 1 out 3 were faulty. When I sold those they made it a point to remind me those didn't carry over. And the second company I was on the phone with laughed and agreed that if anything ever happened to the panel they would take care of it. Not really cocky but kindve surprised I even asked...
6.) LEDs, I don't know. Whatever, they both use reputable brands and thats the only reason I have em. Best of what we can get, pre assembled.
7.) and you gotta think about what kind of application these things are for... I think THATS what puts me so off on this comparison, one is OBVIOUSLY a greenhouse garden light, narrow lenses for high hanging--> to cast a smaller shadow over your crop, but still get as serious of light from em as you can. Fans on the side, im assuming to AT LEAST help with moisture not settling in the wrong spot, The other light is the quietest thing I've ever been able to put my ears to the test with (bullshit, but it IS the quietest panel I've had to date, and the only one I see topping that are a group of Hans) and the wider style of the panel suggest a smaller space, such as a closet footprint, or cabinet.
Idk, in the words of Kat WIlliams, I got shit ta do today! I really like both companies, and use each of them for their respective purposes to fill my needs, <-- yes, I do love my panels. and they love me too. Im using my SGS over my 3 (actual probably 1) seeding right now, because I can give em all white, and runs quiet (for my quiet part of the area), and lower draw/intensity more suitable for what I am doing.
Ta-da.
Sorry Green :/ I know... you're just trying to do your thing, we should just start a fucking sticky for this already, I vote chroni, psu and Hy to come up with the Title.
Edit: sorry puff I hadn't meant it in a radical way, it is all about preference and as for cap'n I could never come at him the wrong way, much respect in his direction.
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puffenuff
Well-Known Member
Well that escalated quickly...
Glad to see Scotch is around and doing well. I hate to see all the negativity that is going around. I understand that everyone feels entitled to know everything about everything, but let's not get carried away about things that ultimately don't matter. In the end, all that matters is you find a light and company you like to support and then grow some dank ass weed.
And that's what gg has been doing all along. Hopefully things can return to normal around here and let the homie get back to focusing on his pretty girls as they finish up.
I think one of your famous updates would be good to get things back on track.
Peace and good vibes to all.
Edit: no worries scotch, wasn't specific to anyone in particular. Just over the past day looks like things started to get away from gg's grow so I thought I'd try to help smooth things over and get back on track.
Glad to see Scotch is around and doing well. I hate to see all the negativity that is going around. I understand that everyone feels entitled to know everything about everything, but let's not get carried away about things that ultimately don't matter. In the end, all that matters is you find a light and company you like to support and then grow some dank ass weed.
And that's what gg has been doing all along. Hopefully things can return to normal around here and let the homie get back to focusing on his pretty girls as they finish up.
I think one of your famous updates would be good to get things back on track.
Peace and good vibes to all.
Edit: no worries scotch, wasn't specific to anyone in particular. Just over the past day looks like things started to get away from gg's grow so I thought I'd try to help smooth things over and get back on track.
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foreverflyhi
Well-Known Member
Word!!! ^^^^^
Brotha scotch, didnt mean to put words in your mourh, i just rememeber u stating something about taking it apart,
then shortly after i must of read from someone diffrent regaurding apache, rememebr pictures as well... Not sure...
Anyways good to kno u r ok!
Brotha scotch, didnt mean to put words in your mourh, i just rememeber u stating something about taking it apart,
then shortly after i must of read from someone diffrent regaurding apache, rememebr pictures as well... Not sure...
Anyways good to kno u r ok!
Chronikool
Well-Known Member
Hey Greengenes....best comparison grow i have seen yet bruv...keep it up....
Greengenes707
Well-Known Member
You ask and you shall receive...I actually posted on youtube this morning before this all went down....
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