1000w Citizen CLU048 1212 Garden

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

Wussup playas, I'm new to the site but I've been building all kinds of wacky COB creations for almost 3 years now. I like experimenting with cheaper alternatives to Cree's CXB line, although I do run a 1000w mixed spectrum 3590 tent if you ever want to see comparison photos. This journal will detail my CLU048 tent, in which I'm running 20 of them in the 3500k flavor @ 1400mA, actively cooled in an unairconditioned 4x8 tent. I'm a perpetual grower and as such, I find my self with WAYYY too many clones sometimes, so I like to burn them off in fun rigs like this one.

I've had this weird theory, that 3590s are less than optimal than less efficient chips with a smaller light emitting surface. I've grown side-by-side runs with my 3590 tent and a 3070 tent with identical spectra at identical current draw with identical cooling and identical clones and, invariably, the 3070 tent whoops the 3590 tent with about 10% more weight on my girls. That's what got my interest piqued in the CLU048. The metallic substrate seems to wick heat away from the chip somewhat more efficiently than the CXB's ceramic substrate, allowing for higher binning even when over-driven slightly. I'm seeing some really promising stuff on this first run, so stick with me here and I'll show you that 50w on a phosphor conversion COB is 50w regardless of the brand name.

 

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

Here's the tent at day 35, clones include:
3 Dr. Who by HGNW
2 Lemon Aliendawg phenos from seed (the huge one in back and the squat one in front of it)
4 Twizzler by G.A.S. (the really squat ones [total mutant cherry pie pheno that I'm in love with])
6 Alien Blues by Laplata Labs

I'll keep updating this guy with some close-ups of some more high-res stuff when the girls warrant it. Looking very healthy right now though. I've grown probably 10 runs of my Dr. Who under all different kinds of COBs and I'll say that I haven't seen nugs this big since my 3070 experiment. I'm really liking the economy of these things, and I think running a 3590 anywhere below 2 amps is a waste of money. For those of you guys who aren't efficiency purists, I hope I can compel you to slay the CXB hype dragon with me.

And for anyone interested, right now I've got a pheno run of 7 Guice females and 1 really good looking LBR45 lady from Exotic Genetix previous lineup in my 3590 tent. I'll throw up a few photos of how those are going periodically, I'm a huge Exotic fanboy. Also I got on the preorder for 2 packs of both Black Mamba and Blue Steel (shipped out today) that I'll probably be running in this CLU tent after the current run comes down. I have all kinds of crazy mothers that you guys will get to see here, I do at least 4 big pheno hunts a year you'll all get a front row seat.

 

[BOBBY_G]

Wussup playas, I'm new to the site

welcome!

This journal will detail my CLU048 tent, in which I'm running 20 of them in the 3500k flavor @ 1400mA, actively cooled in an unairconditioned 4x8 tent.

nice im about to build up 48 1825s in a 5x9 @ 27W/550 mA/65% efficiency

I've had this weird theory, that 3590s are less than optimal than less efficient chips with a smaller light emitting surface. I've grown side-by-side runs with my 3590 tent and a 3070 tent with identical spectra at identical current draw with identical cooling and identical clones and, invariably, the 3070 tent whoops the 3590 tent with about 10% more weight on my girls.

very interesting! on an equal current-basis the 3070s and 3590s arent too different on a light basis, though the 3070s are pulling more wattage due to higher voltage at the same current

That's what got my interest piqued in the CLU048. The metallic substrate seems to wick heat away from the chip somewhat more efficiently than the CXB's ceramic substrate, allowing for higher binning even when over-driven slightly. I'm seeing some really promising stuff on this first run, so stick with me here and I'll show you that 50w on a phosphor conversion COB is 50w regardless of the brand name.

heres a few threads/posts you make like
https://www.rollitup.org/t/cheap-and-cheerful-diy-using-citizen-cobs.909460/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/is-this-a-vero-29-killer.906620/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/top-bin-cob-comparison-2.897765/page-8#post-12770739

 

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

My theory is that the smaller surface area emits more IR that really open up your stomata. I really do like the resin production I'm getting from my 3590 tent, but the bud size is greatly diminished over smaller chips. I feel like 50w is 50w, if you can adequately cool your dice, you have roughly the same output per chip aside from counting angels on pinheads. The heat characteristics are what intrigues me about smaller surface areas. Something leads me to believe that plants really appreciate discrete point-source lighting (the sun maybe). The problem with the 3590s in my configuration is that they aren't hot at all. I run a 12v leg on each bar and three fans zap-strapped to the fins, and the lack of heat is definitely affecting the size of the buds. From a guy that's probably 10 harvests deep in 100% COB gardens, I'll tell you that the density=intensity adage just isn't the case. IR is definitely a factor, and a 3590 being under-driven even at 50w is just not throwing the same kind of discrete heat signature that plants appreciate for hormone distribution.

Take a look at these pictures for comparison. Here's two identical cuts vegged for the same amount of time. One was flowered under 3070s, the other 3590s. Definitely smaller colas and less resin production in the case of the 3590. Both were great, but one clearly stomped the other using identical fabric pots in pure coco with jack's 3-2-1 and soluble kelp from cutting to chop.

In the last picture, the girls on the far right are that same Dr. Who cut at week 7, the same size as the buds on the week 5 plants in the CLU tent with even less veg time. Something is definitely going on. Without a doubt, the 3590 is a beast of a COB and will definitely get the job done, but I'm thinking the 3070 and the CLU might be a better option for those of us who need those larger vegetative yields.

 

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

Also, if this works out, already got a side-by-side lined up with the CLU048 1212 3500k vs 4000k. Look at all the shiny COBs.

 

[BOBBY_G]

couple of thoughts:
too much light = light stress
particuary if temp arent ideal

lets assume your 3070 setup is perfect for what youre trying to do

3590 is perfect+ extra light+ lower temp = ???

i think there are a lot of factors there you might not be considering

 

[Airwalker16]

It seems to me that all buds (including my own) under 3590's seem to spear head. You might be on to something. Thank heavens my new Ecosunlite uses 3070's!!!

 

[Milliardo Peacecraft]

It seems to me that all buds (including my own) under 3590's seem to spear head. You might be on to something. Thank heavens my new Ecosunlite uses 3070's!!!

DUDE OKAY IT ISN'T JUST ME. Seriously, there are some cuts I keep specifically because they are fingery, and my 3590 tent always winds up looking like a klan rally.

From a welding background, I can tell you that the more current you arc, the more UV and IR you are emitting. The way a gallium nitride crystal emits light is basically nano-arcing current between the billions of imperfections (electrons and "holes") formed in the crystal lattice. The stronger your arcing current, the more you are changing the IR and UV characteristic of the output. I feel like there is a huge difference between a 3590 at 700mA and 1400mA, even if your ppfd are reading identically. Photomorphology is so crazy man, I love this shit even if I'm a total hack. So utilizing a smaller chip with fewer individual dice at the same current draw, you're producing a different UV and IR characteristic in the resulting emission. This is all speculation though, I'm only going on raw results and anecdote. I know a good amount about how LEDs work, but phosphor conversion is slightly out of my depth yet, though I would assume a different characteristic of photon being used as a pump would result in a different resulting emission. I could be totally wrong though.

Hey look at this pretty twizzler girl though:

 

[Airwalker16]

DUDE OKAY IT ISN'T JUST ME. Seriously, there are some cuts I keep specifically because they are fingery, and my 3590 tent always winds up looking like a klan rally.

From a welding background, I can tell you that the more current you arc, the more UV and IR you are emitting. The way a gallium nitride crystal emits light is basically nano-arcing current between the billions of imperfections (electrons and "holes") formed in the crystal lattice. The stronger your arcing current, the more you are changing the IR and UV characteristic of the output. I feel like there is a huge difference between a 3590 at 700mA and 1400mA, even if your ppfd are reading identically. Photomorphology is so crazy man, I love this shit even if I'm a total hack. So utilizing a smaller chip with fewer individual dice at the same current draw, you're producing a different UV and IR characteristic in the resulting emission. This is all speculation though, I'm only going on raw results and anecdote. I know a good amount about how LEDs work, but phosphor conversion is slightly out of my depth yet, though I would assume a different characteristic of photon being used as a pump would result in a different resulting emission. I could be totally wrong though.

Hey look at this pretty twizzler girl though:

Those calyxs are so BEAUTIFULLY swollen. "DROOOOOooooollll"
...

 

[BOBBY_G]

im gonna go out on a limb and say that a lot of peoples stretching under 3590s is jsut light intensity causing stress. current does shift spectrum slightly but not way into the uv and ir ranges

 

[The Dawg]

im gonna go out on a limb and say that a lot of peoples stretching under 3590s is jsut light intensity causing stress. current does shift spectrum slightly but not way into the uv and ir ranges

A Plant Will Burn Up And Die If Theirs Too Much Light Intensity Jesus These Calculator Non Growing Internet Jockey's Is Really Starting To Get On My Last Nerve

Elongated, stretchy stems are the bane of any new marijuana grower. They don’t provide the seedling, which can end up affecting the plant throughout its lifecycle. But, getting rid of the stretchy stem is really a matter of replanting the seedling so it doesn’t continue to grow disproportionately. When they’re in their seedling stage, stems will stretch out for a variety of reasons, but generally because the light is too high and they are trying to “reach” up towards it. Lowering your lights can keep you from experiencing this problem.

But, first, let’s talk about how to fix the problem if it occurs to you. The first thing you want to do is make sure the soil is dry. If it’s wet, the roots will have a tendency to cling and you don’t want them to be damaged in any way. Then, very carefully remove the marijuana seedling from its current container. Clean off the roots so that there is no more soil attached.

You may want to use a deeper container or just dump the soil out from the seedling’s current container. Leave a little bit of soil in the bottom of whatever container you decide to use so that the roots won’t try to grow through the drain holes. Place the seedling down in the container in such a way that you can bury the stem. It is ideal to bury the stem almost completely so that only the Cotyledon leaves are showing. After that, provide the marijuana plant with just a touch of water to get it going again.

At this point, your stem will be buried and it will eventually start to grow roots of its own. This is something that can apply to little seedlings and even incredibly long, emaciated stems. Again, as long as you’re extremely gentle with the plant, you should cause no harm and the plant will not be stressed.

To avoid stretchy stems make sure your marijuana seedlings get enough light an place them under a cfl bulb (3 watt per seedling). Distance between plant and cfl bulb should be around 2 inch. Distance between plant and HPS bulb should be around 40 inch for seedlings (20 inch for vegging plants) but make sure temperatures don’t exceed 77 ºF.

 

[The Dawg]

My theory is that the smaller surface area emits more IR that really open up your stomata. I really do like the resin production I'm getting from my 3590 tent, but the bud size is greatly diminished over smaller chips. I feel like 50w is 50w, if you can adequately cool your dice, you have roughly the same output per chip aside from counting angels on pinheads. The heat characteristics are what intrigues me about smaller surface areas. Something leads me to believe that plants really appreciate discrete point-source lighting (the sun maybe). The problem with the 3590s in my configuration is that they aren't hot at all. I run a 12v leg on each bar and three fans zap-strapped to the fins, and the lack of heat is definitely affecting the size of the buds. From a guy that's probably 10 harvests deep in 100% COB gardens, I'll tell you that the density=intensity adage just isn't the case. IR is definitely a factor, and a 3590 being under-driven even at 50w is just not throwing the same kind of discrete heat signature that plants appreciate for hormone distribution.

Take a look at these pictures for comparison. Here's two identical cuts vegged for the same amount of time. One was flowered under 3070s, the other 3590s. Definitely smaller colas and less resin production in the case of the 3590. Both were great, but one clearly stomped the other using identical fabric pots in pure coco with jack's 3-2-1 and soluble kelp from cutting to chop.

In the last picture, the girls on the far right are that same Dr. Who cut at week 7, the same size as the buds on the week 5 plants in the CLU tent with even less veg time. Something is definitely going on. Without a doubt, the 3590 is a beast of a COB and will definitely get the job done, but I'm thinking the 3070 and the CLU might be a better option for those of us who need those larger vegetative yields.

Brother I Like Your Style And Your Observations. I Myself Has ordered Some CLU48-1212 To See if They Can Compete With My Beloved Vero29's

 

[BOBBY_G]

A Plant Will Burn Up And Die If Theirs Too Much Light Intensity Jesus These Calculator Non Growing Internet Jockey's Is Really Starting To Get On My Last Nerve

you should probably address them then

Elongated, stretchy stems are the bane of any new marijuana grower......(snip)

fine info but not sure why you typed all that off-topic into a thread where nobody who needs it will ever see it

 

[wietefras]

Interesting observation. 1000W in a 4'x8' tent is less than 350W per m2. That sounds like normal light levels, so light stress really shouldn't be an issue. Also, I don't see why smaller COBs would emit more IR. It's the same base diodes with a coating on top. It's just about a third less on a 3070 compared to a 3590.

If heat is an issue you should make sure the temperature in the grow tent is increased by changing your ventilation/circulation. The temperature should be the same no matter what lights you use.

Perhaps increasing the number of COBs makes the light more dispersed and diffused. That would increase penetration.

I have no comparison unfortunately I only use CXB3070, but I'm interested in the cheaper Citizen solutions. So I'm eagerly awaiting your build

I pay 23cents per kWh and based on that I calculated that a CXB3590 36V at 1750mA (62W) and CXB3070 at 1400mA (50W) is the most economical solution. Anything more efficient and it takes years to recover the extra investment on the little savings that it offers. Driving them harder will cause the electricity cost increase to outweigh the savings within 18 months.

Running at those wattages, both COBs run at the same efficiency. That would negate any of the spectrum or heat aspects that you propose cause the difference between your grows.

 

[BOBBY_G]

I pay 23cents per kWh and based on that I calculated that a CXB3590 36V at 1750mA (62W) is the most economical solution.

CLU048-1818 run neck and neck with the 3590s at 62W and are $24
CLU058-1825s are $42 and are about 10% more efficient than 3590s at 62W (or alternatively you can run them at 105W at the same efficiency as the 3590s and use a lot less chips

 

[dandyrandy]

5¢ a kW here

 

[dandyrandy]

I am running 16 3590's at 750w in 15 sq ft at 16". No bleaching, just growth.

 

[wietefras]

CLU048-1818 run neck and neck with the 3590s at 62W and are $24
CLU058-1825s are $42 and are about 10% more efficient than 3590s at 62W (or alternatively you can run them at 105W at the same efficiency as the 3590s and use a lot less chips

Yeah sounds good. Although I saw some efficiency charts and it seemed you needed more of these Citizen leds at lower wattages. Which means you need to buy more COBs and also more heatsinks. Which reduces the price benefit a lot already.

Personally I rather compare COBs at the same efficiency level to keep electricity costs out of the equation. CXB3070 @ 50W and CXB3590 @ 62W are about the same efficiency. Then you only need to calculate the cost of the fixture to see which option is "least expensive".

I was also wondering which drivers would work well with the Citizen leds because COBs at 50V seem to not fit very well with Mean Well drivers.

BTW I was responding to this remark:

Here's the tent at day 35, clones include:
I think running a 3590 anywhere below 2 amps is a waste of money.

As I said, for me 1750mA would be the most economical.

 

[BOBBY_G]

Yeah sounds good. Although I saw some efficiency charts and it seemed you needed more of these Citizen leds at lower wattages. Which means you need to buy more COBs and also more heatsinks. Which reduces the price benefit a lot already.

maybe in the 1818s case.
but the cheaper (than 3590) 1825 beats the 3590 across the board, even at low wattages

 

[coreywebster]

maybe in the 1818s case.
but the cheaper (than 3590) 1825 beats the 3590 across the board, even at low wattages

Is there a mA which the 1825 can be run to get to 64% or above efficiency?