Hps or MH or LED?

[Kingrow1]

The advantages of led are not neccasarily on the energy cost per say.
if your running 1k of HID and you swap to the same 1k of LED then you now have a space that's1/4 to a 1/3rd larger. Thus your yields for the same 1k wattage would be 1/4 to a 1/3 more.
That's the kicker with LED, you get more canopy for the equivalent W.

And yes your not heating a gas so its slightly cooler. A w of light is a w of heat, the heat saving is in the not having to heat a gas like you do in HID.

Heat gas or dont the laws of thermodynamics are the same, hps dosent give off nearly enough ir heat as the sun.

We need to stop this lame led speech, they dont grow a third more than a De, i refer to the de growers who take the piss out of led growers in many threads.

Led growers think blurple was total shit yet some here nail karge yeilds with them, leds aint that much better than day 1....

Seriously if i can do it then others can, leds are weak lights, yet to see peeps stop selling hps and cmh are more popular now, leds not left the best impression....

 

[Kingrow1]

lol looks like classic nitrogen/MG clawing you goon. see how dark the plant is?

Under t5s the colour is rendered correctly, it only looks dark like that under hps but you would know that right or do i need a pro to correct you there.

Why i dont have the same problems you do on these boards, better attitude better science. Never felt the need to join ic or 420, you wont find me there just years of the first three forums here.

 

[Luvthatgreen]

So is your total usable area 12 x 10? If so you will need a veg area, blooming area, and a work area that will also act as a lung room. I'd recommend not going all in based on your experience level. Maybe start out with a 5x5 bloom tent with one air cooled 1k hps on the cheap. Get a feel for the plant and it's full life cycle, germination to harvest. Learn the light and how to deal with heat. Then after have some experience under your belt think about switching out lights to something else that fits your grow style and making a bigger bloom area.

Okay thanks! Ill have a window AC unit, and the central air unit. Temps should be great. Wish I could say the same about the electricity bill.

 

[Flowki]

Heat gas or dont the laws of thermodynamics are the same, hps dosent give off nearly enough ir heat as the sun.

We need to stop this lame led speech, they dont grow a third more than a De, i refer to the de growers who take the piss out of led growers in many threads.

Led growers think blurple was total shit yet some here nail karge yeilds with them, leds aint that much better than day 1....

Seriously if i can do it then others can, leds are weak lights, yet to see peeps stop selling hps and cmh are more popular now, leds not left the best impression....

Thing is with hps though, they might grow buds that ''look big'' but I often see that as a fluffing response from too much canopy heat. I'm not saying you can't get dense buds from hps, but to get that you will end up with a light height that will reduce over all foot print yield or you suffer lower quality on other parts of the canopy in the danger zone, and it's a lot less quality too. Buds that are too close will simply get heat stress and even genuine burn. Buds that are in the hotter zone will grow big but fluffy, I guess that's a surface area heat reduction response or something. The buds toward the outer foot print will be smaller but the most dense. Buds out side of that are just airy, similar to those airy buds lower in the canopy.

I understand what you are saying about light but you do still need to consider canopy temp from bulb heat.. and ofc too much air flow over leaves isn't good either. So in those terms it makes hps very difficult to use correct and trying to grow with it in a flat canopy is most definitely the wrong way to use hps, 100%.

I think the general upside on leds, cobs yada yada is that they spread the light intensity over the top canopy so that the upper biggest buds are consistently dense and healthy across the foot print. At-least cobs don't appear to have the best penetration though, so mid/lower buds suffer (although I read high end leds have better penetration than hps?). However, space provided you can expand a top canopy by some 50% when swapping hps out for multiple light source led/cob of equal W. If I only had a 3x3 area max to work with then I'd very likely use 2x cmh for good horizontal and depth. In-fact I'd probably pick cmh for far bigger spaces but the cost and bulb replacement is a huge deterrent.

So yeah, for me.

Small canopy area > cmh
Large canopy area > cob, possibly with a cmh here and there

Seems to me led and hps fall through the cracks but if it's what you have, make the most of it.

 

[Piratemccall]

Opinions? First hand pros and cons? For a 12x10 room fitting as many plants as possible. Thanks

HID base with supplemental UV. Get 4 1000 w digital ballasts that can run MH and hps. Mix in 10k or uv florescent and you got full spectrum at disposal with far more coverage than led

 

[Kingrow1]

Thing is with hps though, they might grow buds that ''look big'' but I often see that as a fluffing response from too much canopy heat. I'm not saying you can't get dense buds from hps, but to get that you will end up with a light height that will reduce over all foot print yield or you suffer lower quality on other parts of the canopy in the danger zone, and it's a lot less quality too. Buds that are too close will simply get heat stress and even genuine burn. Buds that are in the hotter zone will grow big but fluffy, I guess that's a surface area heat reduction response or something. The buds toward the outer foot print will be smaller but the most dense. Buds out side of that are just airy, similar to those airy buds lower in the canopy.

I understand what you are saying about light but you do still need to consider canopy temp from bulb heat.. and ofc too much air flow over leaves isn't good either. So in those terms it makes hps very difficult to use correct and trying to grow with it in a flat canopy is most definitely the wrong way to use hps, 100%.

I think the general upside on leds, cobs yada yada is that they spread the light intensity over the top canopy so that the upper biggest buds are consistently dense and healthy across the foot print. At-least cobs don't appear to have the best penetration though, so mid/lower buds suffer (although I read high end leds have better penetration than hps?). However, space provided you can expand a top canopy by some 50% when swapping hps out for multiple light source led/cob of equal W. If I only had a 3x3 area max to work with then I'd very likely use 2x cmh for good horizontal and depth. In-fact I'd probably pick cmh for far bigger spaces but the cost and bulb replacement is a huge deterrent.

So yeah, for me.

Small canopy area > cmh
Large canopy area > cob, possibly with a cmh here and there

Seems to me led and hps fall through the cracks but if it's what you have, make the most of it.

There is very little heat from a hps that isnt ir in reality, seriously very inefficient thermal/convection/conduction heaters and you will need more wattage to heat a room which is where traditional heaters do not use light so much as thermal mass and higher wattage.

Hps are not air heaters, mainly the heat is ir and still far from what the sun kicks out, dont believe me then go stand in a field in Afghanistan in mid summer and tell me them plants are suffering.

The point on air flow is correct, vpd is pretty useless, leaf cooling is by far a more complex subject and deals with how a leaf transpires even in stagnant air through thermal upflows.

Im not here to argue but i can take a stance and say all is not as it seems and a lot of led science is easily dismissed, before leds peeps didnt struggle so much in hotter countries but since led some whole new brand of science has sprung up and it dosent correlate with what universities teach (michigan)......

 

[HotKarl2]

Opinions? First hand pros and cons? For a 12x10 room fitting as many plants as possible. Thanks

My room is roughly that, though the table itself is only 8x4. Pics speak words so here is the 1.1kw QB output, 30 plants:

 

[Flowki]

There is very little heat from a hps that isnt ir in reality, seriously very inefficient thermal/convection/conduction heaters and you will need more wattage to heat a room which is where traditional heaters do not use light so much as thermal mass and higher wattage.

Hps are not air heaters, mainly the heat is ir and still far from what the sun kicks out, dont believe me then go stand in a field in Afghanistan in mid summer and tell me them plants are suffering.

The point on air flow is correct, vpd is pretty useless, leaf cooling is by far a more complex subject and deals with how a leaf transpires even in stagnant air through thermal upflows.

Im not here to argue but i can take a stance and say all is not as it seems and a lot of led science is easily dismissed, before leds peeps didnt struggle so much in hotter countries but since led some whole new brand of science has sprung up and it dosent correlate with what universities teach (michigan)......

It's a difference between the heat the sun provides, natural air flow or other mechanisms us less than amateurs understand compared to indoor. What I do know for certain is that the ''pro'' growers you mention don't actually put the lights close from what I've seen. They hang lots of 1k lights high, more than you'd typically use to cover the same % area in an amateur indoor grow. The reason being from what I understand is that it removes the immediate physical heat generated from the bulbs but at a cost of light saturation, thus the reason they use more lights to get that back. This gives them cooler canopy temps in the physical sense and no heat stressed fluffy top buds across the canopy. Indoor growers don't have the cash or likely ventilation to do the same as pro setups so they use less lights and run them closer. The result is good yield yes, but very varied quality across the canopy, such as heat stressed fluff bud near hot zones.

The sun isn't a focused beam but putting a light in a closed hood and having it close to a plant most certainly is.. so while the sun is way more powerful it does not focus any of that light on a cm2 area of a leaf, indoor lights and reflectors can and do that. I don't need to prove it, we've all seen it.

If you hold a marginally concave translucent object over an outdoor plant it will begin to focus light and fry the area, I had an inquisitive enough child hood to have done that personally, only on ants o0. Car windows are doing the same, it's effects have been researched on magnifying the sun in a harmful way for us. Outdoor gardeners also suggest not to water plants on a hot day because the droplets will magnify and burn the leaves.

I'm not being argumentative it's just that your logic of ''the sun is hot plants don't burn'' is flawed in how you are trying to apply it to justify hps. I thought you had found a way to maintain a closer hps distance whilst avoiding the downsides, so I was very curious.

Vert gorwers use a floor fan, that will likely keep the leaves moving more to remove some of the single spot magnification issues. The fan is also constantly blowing on the bulb/s pushing hot air directly up and off the canopy. Fans on horizontal mainly push the heat into the canopy in actual practice. They also don't use hoods, another big factor.

 

[Kingrow1]

My room is roughly that, though the table itself is only 8x4. Pics speak words so here is the 1.1kw QB output, 30 plants:

Its not hard to rip pics of a 1000watt hps grows that will make those thirty look like royal dwarf strains. As said many times the king is the 1000w De, if peeps want to say cmh is better thats there bag but as to leds, pull the other one, most pics are of small fluffy buds that have very little depth.

Id rather be called a dumbass by led growers than back down to their stupidity, seven years and every year they have been wrong and had to change somthing because their yeilds didnt match those far out claims, idiots that just ruin it for the rest...!

 

[Kingrow1]

It's a difference between the heat the sun provides, natural air flow or other mechanisms us less than amateurs understand compared to indoor. What I do know for certain is that the ''pro'' growers you mention don't actually put the lights close from what I've seen. They hang lots of 1k lights high, more than you'd typically use to cover the same % area in an amateur indoor grow. The reason being from what I understand is that it removes the immediate physical heat generated from the bulbs but at a cost of light saturation, thus the reason they use more lights to get that back. This gives them cooler canopy temps in the physical sense and less airy top buds that are of higher quality across the board. Indoor growers don't have the cash or likely ventilation to do the same as pro setups so they use less lights and run them closer. The result is good yield yes, but very varied quality across the canopy, such as heat stressed fluff bud near hot zones.

The sun isn't a focused beam but putting a light in a closed hood and having it close to a plant most certainly is.. so while the sun is way more powerful it does not focus any of that light on a cm2 area of a leaf, indoor lights an reflectors can and do that.

If you hold a marginally concave translucent object over an outdoor plant it will begin to focus light and fry the area, I had an inquisitive enough child hood to have done that personally, only on ants o0. Car windows are doing the same, it's effects have been researched on magnifying the sun in a harmful way for us. Outdoor gardeners also suggest not to water plants on a hot day because the droplets will magnify and burn the leaves.

I'm not being argumentative it's just that your logic of ''the sun is hot plants don't burn'' is flawed in how you are trying to apply it to justify hps. I thought you had found a way to maintain a closer hps distance whilst avoiding the downsides, so I was very curious.

Its not bro, your dead wrong, can rip experiments off google that prove the sun is more powerfull all round and that indoors its easy to create the same envir. as outdoors.

This rabbit dosent believe you fools and can check this stuff him self... guess what, your full of copy and pasted wrong led science shit it so laughable it hurts.....

Please guys i have answered everything with hard facts and your still spinning trying to grasp at answers. Yer im a dweeb except theres lots that just flat out agree with me on these boards and others.

 

[Purpsmagurps]

Its not bro, your dead wrong, can rip experiments off google that prove the sun is more powerfull all round and that indoors its easy to create the same envir. as outdoors.

This rabbit dosent believe you fools and can check this stuff him self... guess what, your full of copy and pasted wrong led science shit it so laughable it hurts.....

Please guys i have answered everything with hard facts and your still spinning trying to grasp at answers. Yer im a dweeb except theres lots that just flat out agree with me on these boards and others.

I love how you pretend to be talking about something we dont already know. I REALLLY like you use of the work "pros" you want to be one but know you never have grown in your life. why cant you show a picture of at least ONE of your many grows you successful bastard?!?!?

 

[Purpsmagurps]

found another sig quote!!!!

 

[Kingrow1]

I love how you pretend to be talking about something we dont already know. I REALLLY like you use of the work "pros" you want to be one but know you never have grown in your life. why cant you show a picture of at least ONE of your many grows you successful bastard?!?!?

I did, re-read a few post back.

Such a noob dick move to judge on how well peeps grow, here to be part of a community not conquest till im the best, you'll find this is why you dont do well on these forums bro.

I have cited pure science in response to your claims on leds, i got back very little except the same claims.... go figure noobie, i'm not so green here

 

[Purpsmagurps]

Its not bro, your dead wrong, can rip experiments off google that prove the sun is more powerfull.

Please guys i have answered everything with hard facts and your still spinning trying to grasp at answers. Yer im a dweeb except theres lots that just flat out agree with me on these boards and others.

I like how you are the one ripping information off of other peoples grow like you went through the experience yourself. I bet you we can give you everything you need and you'd drown in all the knowledge trying to put it toghether for your first time

Didnt see it I cant go through all of your bullshit posts can you just post it again?

 

[GanjaSnake]

So, is there anyone in here like me who actually uses the heat from the bulbs as a supplemental heat source?

I have a tiny veg cabinet with a 250W MH that stays on 24/7 and when it gets really cold I add a heat mat under the plants to keep them happy.

Of course I live in a fairly cold climate, and my cabinets are located in outbuildings on my property. I like the idea of running LED's but I've got this system dialed in over the past 12yrs or so and I'm scared I'd have to add more heat sources to the mix.

 

[Flowki]

Its not bro, your dead wrong, can rip experiments off google that prove the sun is more powerfull all round and that indoors its easy to create the same envir. as outdoors.

This rabbit dosent believe you fools and can check this stuff him self... guess what, your full of copy and pasted wrong led science shit it so laughable it hurts.....

Please guys i have answered everything with hard facts and your still spinning trying to grasp at answers. Yer im a dweeb except theres lots that just flat out agree with me on these boards and others.

Don't take this as a personal thing. All I am doing is pointing out things I have seen first hand or read a lot about. Everything I have said above is 100% true in that it is common place. You suggest the pro's now run lights very close and that may be true but as I said, I've only ever seen the exact opposite. I don't feel like looking around google scholar or where ever you source it from, since you have advocated this tactic it's on you to give me the links. Seriously it's not about being right or wrong, I am simply giving opinion based on current knowledge and will most definitely alter it once you have proven what you've stated. Hps is still a thing of the past for me but cmh is not.. so it's still very relevant info.

 

[Flowki]

So, is there anyone in here like me who actually uses the heat from the bulbs as a supplemental heat source?

I have a tiny veg cabinet with a 250W MH that stays on 24/7 and when it gets really cold I add a heat mat under the plants to keep them happy.

Of course I live in a fairly cold climate, and my cabinets are located in outbuildings on my property. I like the idea of running LED's but I've got this system dialed in over the past 12yrs or so and I'm scared I'd have to add more heat sources to the mix.

Every efficient person strives to do that, but only to a point. That is why thermo automatic variable in/out takes are a thing.

I would not be slamming lights onto plants just to save on some heating though. The mistake some people also make is this. If light on temps are low they think they can add another light instead of a heater so that they get more light for the W used. That does nothing to help lights off temps so a even bigger on/off temp swing will arise. But this is getting into climate control and off topic.

 

[Purpsmagurps]

I like how you talk to LED owners liek we are MARS FKN HYDRO. LOL liek we dont know half the LED market is for posers like you (cept the other posers can afford it) then those posers realize they should have QBS or COBS

 

[Kingrow1]

Didnt see it I cant go through all of your bullshit posts can you just post it again?

No, after seven years i dont re-post for noobs i have no respect for and that dont manage to get anywhere on these boards except arguments. My ethos here has always been against putting anyone down because of their grow ability although it is required that you can grow before we take you seriously.

My comments stand and many will read, they see that led growers can be very aggressive when us science types lay down some thermodynamic principles right in your faces.

Booom and like that the rabbit dissapeared in a flash of brilliant blue and white smoke with the odd damp thunderbolt lingering around a recently formed puff of smoke, see ya

 

[Purpsmagurps]

No you didnt post your IC username you fucking scaredy cat. SHOW US YOUR GROWS OR SHUT THE FUCK UP KINGROW NOONE CARES.