Lets talk about re amending

myke said:
So I made some new soil yesterday,idea being I could mix this with the older stuff.
Have a feeling that with all the 444 Ive added my Ca maybe climbing.pH tests showing a slight more green then fresh stuff.
Added more kelp,alfalfa ,frass and dialed back the 444.
I think my future add backs will have less Ca in them.My water has plenty.
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Ca is important during veg, but if added during flower, it will lock out K. It would be your base saturation ratio on soil tests. There isnt a set target value, but they need to be in the ratio to keep from locking each other out.
 
Hairybuds said:
i cringe looking back at subcools recipe with all the phosphorus
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High phosphorus is a common problem in my garden! I started getting my soil tested in 2015 and I didnt exactly know how to fix it until I hired an expert. I mean, $40 isnt too bad to get advice from someone who has a PhD. Soil testing and soil agronomist changed my game for sure!
 
MustangStudFarm said:
It was Tad Hussey on KiS Organics that said to not re-ammend P. He also suggested getting your soil tested to take the confusion out.
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Huh...I actually use the KIS organics nutrient pack for re-amending, and the NPK is 2.5-3.5-1 (P is the highest).

The last couple runs I've re-amended with 50/50 KIS and Espoma organic tomato tone (3-4-6) to balance the relatively low K and Ca in the KIS stuff.

I hadn't heard about not adding P when re-amending, but I have read about the relationship between mycorrhizal fungi and P in the soil. The fungi are very good at breaking down phosphates and making them available to the plants, like you don't need very much P if you have active, well established mycorrhizae, but too high levels of plant-available P will actually discourage mycorrhizae from growing. So maybe it would make sense to add P in the beginning, then wait until the mycorrhizae have broken it down before adding more... Also probably depends on where the P is coming from in the first place...
 
MustangStudFarm said:
High phosphorus is a common problem in my garden! I started getting my soil tested in 2015 and I didnt exactly know how to fix it until I hired an expert. I mean, $40 isnt too bad to get advice from someone who has a PhD. Soil testing and soil agronomist changed my game for sure!
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So true! Where else could we get that kind of service. Also huge piece of mind during the grow. Just imagine having two or three overlapping deficiencies and the mixed messages that could create during a grow.
 
Hairybuds said:
So true! Where else could we get that kind of service. Also huge piece of mind during the grow. Just imagine having two or three overlapping deficiencies and the mixed messages that could create during a grow.
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I was treating P tox with only Fe and Mn. I should have been adding Ca and Zn too. I've been low in Ca, Fe, Mn, and N but couldn't figure out why I was yellowing so badly. Each one listed causes yellowing lol. You cant tell the difference from looking at the plant until severe deficiency and your plants are fucked by then. Soil testing has stepped up my game and getting professional help has helped me understand how to actually fix problems.
 
weedstoner420 said:
Huh...I actually use the KIS organics nutrient pack for re-amending, and the NPK is 2.5-3.5-1 (P is the highest).

The last couple runs I've re-amended with 50/50 KIS and Espoma organic tomato tone (3-4-6) to balance the relatively low K and Ca in the KIS stuff.

I hadn't heard about not adding P when re-amending, but I have read about the relationship between mycorrhizal fungi and P in the soil. The fungi are very good at breaking down phosphates and making them available to the plants, like you don't need very much P if you have active, well established mycorrhizae, but too high levels of plant-available P will actually discourage mycorrhizae from growing. So maybe it would make sense to add P in the beginning, then wait until the mycorrhizae have broken it down before adding more... Also probably depends on where the P is coming from in the first place...
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90% of soil P is in an unusable form, so just unlocking it in the soil is enough. I'm talking about potting soil with peat anyways. High calcium soil is different
 
I stopped using subs recipe, then looked at coots but found it too difficult to source those inputs. Talk about a rabbit hole. Really do I need neem, karanja, and oyster shell???? WTF, we aren’t flying to the moon. Finding good vermicompost is also hard.
 
Easily sourced inputs like Gypsum for ca, alfalfa for N and K, whole wheat flour for NPK and the elusive Manganese, blood meal for N, wheat bran to bump up P with N and K included, epsom salt for Mg. Everything is bought easily by the bushel and substantially less than grow store. Rice hulls for aeration, ime the best on a volume basis.
 
MustangStudFarm said:
90% of soil P is in an unusable form, so just unlocking it in the soil is enough. I'm talking about potting soil with peat anyways. High calcium soil is different
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Makes sense, although I think the fertilizer manufacturers would rather you dump more P in the soil, instead of focusing on the micro herd. Or to make sure you're not short of P if you have low mycorrhizal activity.
 
Hairybuds said:
I stopped using subs recipe, then looked at coots but found it too difficult to source those inputs. Talk about a rabbit hole. Really do I need neem, karanja, and oyster shell???? WTF, we aren’t flying to the moon. Finding good vermicompost is also hard.
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The part of Cootz's mix that is overlooked is black leaf mold. It takes 2yrs to make pure leaf mold btw lol. I can have good castings in 8-12weeks... I found a mix that had both neem and karanja but it was def expensive. I'm thinking that is part of his outdoor regimen because he's stated that he's an outdoor grower. Cootz is also the one that started using barley with crab meal. Barley has chitininase to break down the chitin in crab meal. However, I have done my own research and found out that Streptomyces produces chitinase also. I get a lot of Streptomyces with my homemade Grokashi. It took me a while to realize why they use beet juice in the Grokashi recipe, it's for the Streptomyces culture. I'm rattling on now...
 
Hairybuds said:
Easily sourced inputs like Gypsum for ca, alfalfa for N and K, whole wheat flour for NPK and the elusive Manganese, blood meal for N, wheat bran to bump up P with N and K included, epsom salt for Mg. Everything is bought easily by the bushel and substantially less than grow store. Rice hulls for aeration, ime the best on a volume basis.
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Red wheat bran has a healthy dose of Mn too. For a while, I was looking at natural Mn inputs and realized how hard it is to find.
 
weedstoner420 said:
Makes sense, although I think the fertilizer manufacturers would rather you dump more P in the soil, instead of focusing on the micro herd. Or to make sure you're not short of P if you have low mycorrhizal activity.
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Paul Stammets said that there is no college course that focuses on fungi and that the American Gov does not see the importance of micro biology in farming. Yes, all of their fertilizer is made from phosphoric acid
 
MustangStudFarm said:
The part of Cootz's mix that is overlooked is black leaf mold. It takes 2yrs to make pure leaf mold btw lol. I can have good castings in 8-12weeks... I found a mix that had both neem and karanja but it was def expensive. I'm thinking that is part of his outdoor regimen because he's stated that he's an outdoor grower. Cootz is also the one that started using barley with crab meal. Barley has chitininase to break down the chitin in crab meal. However, I have done my own research and found out that Streptomyces produces chitinase also. I get a lot of Streptomyces with my homemade Grokashi. It took me a while to realize why they use beet juice in the Grokashi recipe, it's for the Streptomyces culture. I'm rattling on now...
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I appreciate the contributions subcool and coots made. Coots is very much a specific recipe tailored to his situation but I agree the chitin thing was pretty cool. I wish someone would make a working man’s soil recipe with inputs readily accessible to the masses. I grow beets, will have to look into that. I’m getting more interested in starting a worm farm, way more doable than the black leaf method, lol, good point
 
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