Is my soil hydrophob?

[changarian]

Good morning!

Probably an often asked question, sorry for that:
(First grow in soil)

My 5g buckets can't hold much water.

I use plagron lightmix, clay pebbles(just cleaned, didn't adjust ph) on the bottom
Day 20, plants look good.

I was watering them slowly in 2 steps with a total of 2q of solution. Run off was a third!
I spray the top layer to make it wet before watering.

I was told the buckets should hold about a third of their volume before run off. About 6q maybe less with the pebbles.

I think the middle and bottom layers of soil stayed dry for too long because I never watered the hole Buckets since the plants are growing in them from day1 and are too small to use all that water. The water probably runs off in smalls canals formed by hydrophob soil?

What can I do?

Maybe I water them from the bottom? Let them sit in a bigger bucket with solution or just water?

Or I just panic and wait until more roots grow and the soil gets used to beeing wet?

What I know already is that this will also be my last grow in soil. I just like to be in charge over my lady, for once

Thanks!

 

[VincenzioVonHook]

if your worried about the bottom portion being hydrophobic, giving it a solid feed from the bottom will fix that right up.

Im in peat based medium and have had similar issues if my watering hasn't been on point, and a bottom feed sorted it out quickly.

 

[Milky Weed]

I looked up plagon light mix, and it said its mostly peat. Peat can dry out in the center near the rootball making it hydrophobic. A wetting agent can fix that.

You could go the cheap easy way with a drop of something like dawn, or get something more proper like yucca. Theres lots of wetting agents out there.

 

[OldMedUser]

A 5gal pail should take 4 - 5qt to soak it well so sounds like you have dry zones in there not taking up the water. I have that happen too using ProMix and if I let it get too dry I'll add what I know it needs and let the drip pan fill up then leave it sit overnight. Usually it's all gone by morning and if there's any left I'll get rid of the extra and hoist the pot to see how heavy it is. A tsp of dishwashing soap in 5gal helps and acts as a surfactant in future waterings as well.

 

[changarian]

I looked up plagon light mix, and it said its mostly peat. Peat can dry out in the center near the rootball making it hydrophobic. A wetting agent can fix that.

You could go the cheap easy way with a drop of something like dawn, or get something more proper like yucca. Theres lots of wetting agents out there.

Thanks! This looks just like what I need. I will try that and report back

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Yucca.

 

[changarian]

A 5gal pail should take 4 - 5qt to soak it well so sounds like you have dry zones in there not taking up the water. I have that happen too using ProMix and if I let it get too dry I'll add what I know it needs and let the drip pan fill up then leave it sit overnight. Usually it's all gone by morning and if there's any left I'll get rid of the extra and hoist the pot to see how heavy it is. A tsp of dishwashing soap in 5gal helps and acts as a surfactant in future waterings as well.

Thanks this are good tips. I tried to get a feeling for the weight of the bucket before the first watering and it only feels slightly heavier now.
Since I used clay pebbles/hydroton on the bottom, the run off cant get sucked back into the bucket.
I thought this would be a good idea to prevent water sitting there but I see it also can leave the bottom layer dry.

 

[VincenzioVonHook]

Thanks this are good tips. I tried to get a feeling for the weight of the bucket before the first watering and it only feels slightly heavier now.
Since I used clay pebbles/hydroton on the bottom, the run off cant get sucked back into the bucket.
I thought this would be a good idea to prevent water sitting there but I see it also can leave the bottom layer dry.

you can still bottom feed, you'll just need a deeper container to put it in when you do so. As long as its deeper than the layer of hydroton you should be okay.

 

[OldMedUser]

Thanks this are good tips. I tried to get a feeling for the weight of the bucket before the first watering and it only feels slightly heavier now.
Since I used clay pebbles/hydroton on the bottom, the run off cant get sucked back into the bucket.
I thought this would be a good idea to prevent water sitting there but I see it also can leave the bottom layer dry.

Unless you have paper on top of the hydroton balls water will wick up just fine from the peat that's fallen between them. You really don't need the balls tho. I've been growing in peat based medium for over 20 years when not in DWC.

As a general rule a dry pot will take about 1/4 it's volume to saturate it depending on medium. Real soil will hold more whereas a bucket full of hydroton will take a lot less.

I like to measure how much a pot takes the first time I water it well then when you have a few pots you just multiply that volume by the number of pots and reduce 10%. Comes in handy when mixing up nutes or bottom watering a bunch of pots in a SoG setup. I bought 25 10L square pots that fit nicely in a 4x4' footprint with a couple inches all around. Plan is to make a flood tray with 1x4" lumber and line it with panda film, white side up. May just use 16 in a 4x4 so there's a bit more space.

 

[calvin.m16]

You should put the more aerated mediums at the top of the pot with cannabis. The tap roots like to stay wet, putting perlite or clay pebbles at the bottom is going to cause the bottom to dry out before the top. Some people practice this with AutoPots but they bottom feed as other users have stated.

I would top feed to runoff but let the plants soak in the runoff for a few minutes before draining it out. OR you can try to bottom feed and hope to not run into salt buildup issues.

Next time just run the mix alone and maybe look into pure coco or coco/perlite if your worried about watering issues coco seems to be the most forgiving option.

 

[changarian]

Unless you have paper on top of the hydroton balls water will wick up just fine from the peat that's fallen between them. You really don't need the balls tho. I've been growing in peat based medium for over 20 years when not in DWC.

As a general rule a dry pot will take about 1/4 it's volume to saturate it depending on medium. Real soil will hold more whereas a bucket full of hydroton will take a lot less.

I like to measure how much a pot takes the first time I water it well then when you have a few pots you just multiply that volume by the number of pots and reduce 10%. Comes in handy when mixing up nutes or bottom watering a bunch of pots in a SoG setup. I bought 25 10L square pots that fit nicely in a 4x4' footprint with a couple inches all around. Plan is to make a flood tray with 1x4" lumber and line it with panda film, white side up. May just use 16 in a 4x4 so there's a bit more space.

I will consider this if I ever try soil again. It's a totally different and interesting challenge. I was like "never change a running system" and was always happy with my oldschool recirculation, top feed/clay pebble setup. But I had no more clones available and I can't handle seeds in my setup. After I've found some old cheese in the fridge I put it in soil.

Your plan sounds solid to me. Just do it. I want to get out of my comfort zone and start experimenting with different setups. I want to grow "real" hydro in the future and have some fun building the systems.
This is another thread tho.

Thanks for your help!

 

[changarian]

You should put the more aerated mediums at the top of the pot with cannabis. The tap roots like to stay wet, putting perlite or clay pebbles at the bottom is going to cause the bottom to dry out before the top. Some people practice this with AutoPots but they bottom feed as other users have stated.

I would top feed to runoff but let the plants soak in the runoff for a few minutes before draining it out. OR you can try to bottom feed and hope to not run into salt buildup issues.

Next time just run the mix alone and maybe look into pure coco or coco/perlite if your worried about watering issues coco seems to be the most forgiving option.

This is all very good information I may use in the future.
I'm not sure where I'm headed atm but I want to use my top feed system (Atami Wilma) this year to grow peppers and tomatoes outside. For this I want to use coco and get a feeling for it.

Thank you

 

[changarian]

Yucca.

Ok, after researching this I have to say I know why I come here. This is information I don't get in my country easily. But it's also not easy to find.
I could order it from the UK but it'll take weeks after the brexit.
Only product I've found is this by a professional seller with no price and probably high capacity.

Yuccah - PHC

Yuccah consists of purely natural wetting agents, derived from the Yucca schidigera plant. This plant species produces natural wetting agents to survive under the driest and most extreme conditions. The natural wetting agents help the plants to use water more efficiently and improves water...

www.phc.eu

What about baby shampoo? Any experience on that?

 

[DrOgkush]

Water fucking SLOW!!! Fixed my hydrophobic medias every single time. Soak Fresh water or feed at bottom helps to. Do not use run off to soak. I picked up a bug sprayer. Nozzle adjust quite well. This is how I water.
I water to just moisten the top first. Then I wait like 5 min. Smoke a bowl/dab. Whatever. Then water again. lol heavier. Wait. Like 5 min again. Continue. I water every single watering like this. But it also helps with hydrophobic peat.
it’s water resistant. Not proof. So allow that moisture to truly soak into the media. Usually if run off in soil comes out the bottom right away and it’s the same color it went In. That’s your sign. Water very slow in small ass Increments and that root ball will absorb it. Or like said above. Get a wetting agent.

 

[mudballs]

Common baby shampoo should work in tiny amount.
Ingredients. Water, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, PEG-80 Sorbitan Laurate, Sodium Trideceth Sulfate, PEG-150 Distearate, Fragrance, Polyquaternium-10, Tetrasodium EDTA, Quaternium-15, Citric Acid, Yellow 10 and Orange 4.

The cocamid and PEG-80 are surfactants. Dont go overboard and it might replace your hard to source yucca.

 

[calvin.m16]

Water fucking SLOW!!! Fixed my hydrophobic medias every single time. Soak Fresh water or feed at bottom helps to. Do not use run off to soak. I picked up a bug sprayer. Nozzle adjust quite well. This is how I water.
I water to just moisten the top first. Then I wait like 5 min. Smoke a bowl/dab. Whatever. Then water again. lol heavier. Wait. Like 5 min again. Continue. I water every single watering like this. But it also helps with hydrophobic peat.
it’s water resistant. Not proof. So allow that moisture to truly soak into the media. Usually if run off in soil comes out the bottom right away and it’s the same color it went In. That’s your sign. Water very slow in small ass Increments and that root ball will absorb it. Or like said above. Get a wetting agent.

I use a similar method, 30 gal brute bucket with my nutrient mix, EcoPlus 1000 GPH pump with a garden hose and DRAM Watering Wand.

The key to even saturation is definitely allowing some wicking, think of wetting a sponge you won't just full blast pour water on it when its dry you slowly let it drain through.

With my setup I just walk through my row of plants water all of them gently then come back and water through once again then wait a few mins and then go back through and only water plants that didn't runoff until all pots drip into the trays, let the pots not dry but get almost dry and then repeat.

Lots of people are telling new growers to "let it dry" and then they have this issue because the core if their peat is dry, you need to keep peat and coco constantly wet never "DRY". When pros talk about "dryback" they don't mean DRY they mean when the medium dries back to a certain point irrigate again. In coco for example you want to keep at least 30% water in it.

Optimal available water in a coir substrate is 35-45%. Consistently over saturated media greatly increases the risk of root diseases and decreased crop yields. Media that dries to the permanent wilting point may cause irreversible damage to plant roots. It is important to maintain consistent moisture to ensure root absorption of nutrients without allowing plants to reach the wilting point.

Growing in Coco Coir: Best Practices for Cannabis - RX Green Technologies

Coco coir is a popular cannabis growing medium for commercial cultivation. Learn the best practices for coco coir in cannabis in RX Green's technical paper.

www.rxgreentechnologies.com

 

[calvin.m16]

OP maybe try using a rain shower type watering can instead of just dumping or pouring water in. Peat needs to stay moist you can't let it get dry or it will do this exact crap.

 

[changarian]

Common baby shampoo should work in tiny amount.
Ingredients. Water, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, PEG-80 Sorbitan Laurate, Sodium Trideceth Sulfate, PEG-150 Distearate, Fragrance, Polyquaternium-10, Tetrasodium EDTA, Quaternium-15, Citric Acid, Yellow 10 and Orange 4.

The cocamid and PEG-80 are surfactants. Dont go overboard and it might replace your hard to source yucca.

My first thought is that I don't want that in my soil but I could try that just in one pot and see what it does to the plant and if it fixes my problem

 

[mudballs]

Castile soap is better choice, but the amounts of those ingredients in ppm(parts per million) is so ludicrously low you can trust baby soap in small quantities wont fk up ur grow. You fk up and use 2tbsp a gallon and it's on you.

 

[changarian]

OP maybe try using a rain shower type watering can instead of just dumping or pouring water in. Peat needs to stay moist you can't let it get dry or it will do this exact crap.

I have this type of sprayer with adjustable nozzle which I use to make the top layer wet but I might use up the whole bottle, about 1,5q for a pot.

I thought I was watering slow but I will even slow it down more.
This is kind of hard work for my lazy and old ass