HPS vs. LED Grow Lights — Which is Better for Growing Weed?

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snakedope

Well-Known Member
PJ Diaz said:
Except that photons are additive, which your math doesn't represent. A 600w HPS will have lower numbers, because much of it's energy is lost to non visible waves, which are outside of the PAR range.
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You Sure ? You really need to think reality wise, if this was the case, how the hell MJ grows so good under HPS ? and when i say "grows" i dont mean VEG ! i mean the other sticky stuff...
Its not that HPS wavelengths are out of the PAR spectrum, its just that they are very concentrated on limited PAR wavelengths
Now, ON PAPER i can see that this is baffling, because its colliding with reality (the full spectrum of the sun), but in reality like it has been proven for many many years by many many HID growers for max THC and FROST you dont need perfect PAR wavelengths you need INTENSITY ! every HPS grower that has ever lived can vouch for that.

EDIT: About LEC, they are amazing bulbs, just not so strong as HPS, but they make up for it in their perfect spectrum, ive seen the most high end meds from CMH, no doubt about it, you do sacrifice yield but the tech is there for many years and will only get better with more wattage bulbs and more intense full spectrum mini sun in our tents :)
 
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PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
snakedope said:
View attachment 5143351
You Sure ? You really need to think reality wise, if this was the case, how the hell MJ grows so good under HPS ? and when i say "grows" i dont mean VEG ! i mean the other sticky stuff...
Its not that HPS wavelengths are out of the PAR spectrum, its just that they are very concentrated on limited PAR wavelengths
Now, ON PAPER i can see that this is baffling, because its colliding with reality (the full spectrum of the sun), but in reality like it has been proven for many many years by many many HID growers for THC and FROST you dont need perfect PAR wavelengths you need INTENSITY ! every HPS grower that has ever lived can vouch for that.
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Yeah, I'm sure. I've already checked into all of this years ago. Your chart stops at 730nm. Neat trick at cutting off a bunch of the radiation from the chart. Here's what it looks like when we include the spectrum outside of the PAR range. See that huge IR spike around 820nm:



I was a HPS grower long before I was an LED grower. I know the differences.
 
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snakedope

Well-Known Member
I cut the pic cuz its very low peak after 730 nm, not worth even mentioning, as most of its strength a HPS bulb delivers within PAR range
What you show here is a CMH 3K Bulb, not a 2K HPS.

Here you go:
1654211657834.png
Does that 5 or maybe 10% if i go too far of 780Nm means anything ? most of the HPS 2K power is in PAR range.
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
snakedope said:
I cut the pic cuz its very low peak after 730 nm, not worth even mentioning, as most of its strength a HPS bulb delivers within PAR range
What you show here is a CMH 3K Bulb, not a 2K HPS.
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HPS does the same thing. All HID lights have a huge IR spike around 820 nm. Fact.
 
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snakedope

Well-Known Member
Cant find that spike with 2K bulb on google, they have a spike around 780 like the pic i posted yes, but its 5% of total output power.
Your bulb is a 3K bulb, even if they are close K rated, they are not the same.
 
S

snakedope

Well-Known Member
If you are saying that they dont show us the full spectrum map and in 820 Nm HPS 2K has a huge output spike, i would love to see this
New info for me

Also now i see in your 3K pic that Philips has almost non 800+ output compared to MAXPAR that look like that bulb is indeed wasting a good amount of power on IR heat
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
snakedope said:
If you are saying that they dont show us the full spectrum map and in 820 Nm HPS 2K has a huge output spike, i would love to see this
New info for me

Also now i see in your 3K pic that Philips has almost non 800+ output compared to MAXPAR that look like that bulb is indeed wasting a good amount of power on IR heat
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Check page 16 of the attached document to see a spectrum chart that goes all the way up to 2450nm, and you will see a huge IR spike. Here's a cut and paste from the same document:

High Pressure Sodium Lamps: These are HID lamps containing a sodium-mercury amalgam and trace quantities of inert gas, such as xenon, to assist in the startup. An electric arc passing through the chamber excites the electrons on the sodium and mercury atoms, causing them to glow. These lamps produce a characteristic golden-orange light. Spectra were measured for three high pressure sodium (HPS) lamps. The strongest emission line is from the set of sodium emissions at 819 nm (Figure 14). This emission line is also present in the metal halide lamp spectra. Other strong emission lines occur at 569, 594, 1,140, 595, and 598 nm. There is a dense cluster of strong emission lines from 569 to 616 nm. In addition to the 819 and 1,140 nm lines, there are infrared emission lines at 767, 1,269, 1,846, 2,207, and 2,339 nm. The mean and standard deviation analysis found that the most variable emission line is at 594, followed by the emission lines at 595, 598, 582, 585, 584, 1,140 and 615 nm (Figure 15). Overall, the HPS spectra have less variability than the fluorescent and metal halide lamps.
 

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S

snakedope

Well-Known Member
Just a lil info on panels,
i will compare them to COBs and why COBs are better then panels tomorrow.

When you have a panel thats rated 100K Lm (overall), but it covers a 4 x 4 in size, you cant make the claim that you hit the entire 4 X 4 or even a certain spot within its size with anything near 100K Lm, because the diodes are spread across the whole fixture and shed light to every spot on the canopy not just one spot (as opposed to HID mainly and COBs also), You can understand from this that adding up Lm in a QB or panel fixture can never apply in real life applications or to give any credit to this kind of claims, a 800w led panel fixture (like i have right now) will give avg umol of 900 to every section of the canopy within a 4 x 4 when driven to max output and at a height of 8 inch.

What does all this mean ? basically, you are getting 900 avg umol with more then 750 watt of electricity and not less heat then a HID 600,
So far it all sounds nice, 900 umol at every corner of the canopy at all times ? hard to beat that !
The problem starts when you start to go deeper in the canopy, i have my 800w panel at 6-8 inch right now, but my buds are easy 15-20 inch long so my panel is actually further then 8 inch, only the tops get the 8 inch power, (and u see this mainly with QBs or panels, the tops look rather good and 2-3 inch below it starts to look like cabbage)

Wonder why ? its because in terms of Lm output (with additive Lm count of nearby diodes), the diodes dont have enough power (Lm) to push those values (PAR) further down the canopy, its a no brainer, if at 8 inch you got X Lm then to measure penetration you need to apply same math like you measure PAR values from light to canopy, the thing is because there is a canopy in the way, its not like doing it with no obstruction.

So if at 8 inch i got 900 umol, at 16 inch i got 650 umol, and thats without nothing in the way ! so you can understand why penetration is so important and why the light diminish so fast when going through canopy.
You can also understand by this, that even at 800w and 8 inch height i only get 900 umol ! and thats not just at the sides, its at the center aswell.

If i used a HID i will get lower values (PAR) at the sides and higher values at the center, how high you ask ? well at 8 inch height with 2 400w HPS you will get more then 3500 umol directly under it, only problem - HEAT.
The thing is, those 3500 umols are at a very localized spot (usually around 1 x 1), but with 2 of those you expand that to 2 x 2 coverage, so lets say we put this setup inside a 4 x 4, we cut the numbers in half, so we get something around 1000-1500 umol across the canopy (maybe more)
Sounds pretty much like the LEDs setup... arent we forgetting something ?
Well, those 400w each (i say each because we cant add their Lm, just total it) has 55K Lm that comes from 1 source and goes directly into the 2 x 2 under it, pushing those PAR values way deeper then any lower intensity light can ever push while maintaining a higher intensity down the canopy.

You need to understand that a single light source (no matter HID or LED, well, LED is more efficient) that push high amount of Lm will always be superior to a single light source or many that push low amount of Lm.
This is the reason large commercial ops are putting 1000W HID 5-10 FT from canopy and still get decent results, and why commercial ops that use LEDs put them no more then 12 inch.

You also need to realise im talking about quality, not qty, as qty is much more easy target to reach, i saw the other day some dude on other site that got 600g from a 280w UFO inside a 4 X 8, but brother, i tell you, i wouldn't smoke that shit even if u pay me :D
 
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f.r

Well-Known Member
There are certainly companies making High powered units 1500w used for high bay lighting made from LED. Look at a company like agnetix LED they are doing 1500w water cooled units, used very high up. Growing style will dictate whether that is optimal, a lot of home growers in tents prefer bar style lighting or quantum boards because they don't have the ability to run high amounts of power from smaller points. and they change there grow style to accommodate the fact they aren't hitting the same PPF at floor level as they are at canopy.
 
S

snakedope

Well-Known Member
PJ Diaz said:
Check page 16 of the attached document to see a spectrum chart that goes all the way up to 2450nm, and you will see a huge IR spike. Here's a cut and paste from the same document:

High Pressure Sodium Lamps: These are HID lamps containing a sodium-mercury amalgam and trace quantities of inert gas, such as xenon, to assist in the startup. An electric arc passing through the chamber excites the electrons on the sodium and mercury atoms, causing them to glow. These lamps produce a characteristic golden-orange light. Spectra were measured for three high pressure sodium (HPS) lamps. The strongest emission line is from the set of sodium emissions at 819 nm (Figure 14). This emission line is also present in the metal halide lamp spectra. Other strong emission lines occur at 569, 594, 1,140, 595, and 598 nm. There is a dense cluster of strong emission lines from 569 to 616 nm. In addition to the 819 and 1,140 nm lines, there are infrared emission lines at 767, 1,269, 1,846, 2,207, and 2,339 nm. The mean and standard deviation analysis found that the most variable emission line is at 594, followed by the emission lines at 595, 598, 582, 585, 584, 1,140 and 615 nm (Figure 15). Overall, the HPS spectra have less variability than the fluorescent and metal halide lamps.
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Thank you, But in the study it says MH bulbs, not HPS, nice editing :P
However, "Other strong emission lines occur at 569, 594, 1,140, 595, and 598 nm" - PAR Range (Mostly)
"There is a dense cluster of strong emission lines from 569 to 616 nm" - Still Par Range
"The mean and standard deviation analysis found that the most variable emission line is at 594, followed by the emission lines at 595, 598, 582, 585, 584, 1,140 and 615 nm" - Still PAR Range

So HPS are Mostly PAR Range Bulbs with some emissions in IR and and past IR
 
S

snakedope

Well-Known Member
f.r said:
There are certainly companies making High powered units 1500w used for high bay lighting made from LED. Look at a company like agnetix LED they are doing 1500w water cooled units, used very high up. Growing style will dictate whether that is optimal, a lot of home growers in tents prefer bar style lighting or quantum boards because they don't have the ability to run high amounts of power from smaller points. and they change there grow style to accommodate the fact they aren't hitting the same PPF at floor level as they are at canopy.
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Would love to see those hung up at HIDs heights, but it will be suicide in terms of quality.
Qty, well, thats the industry std so i wont be surprised if they do it.
 
F

f.r

Well-Known Member
People say organic produces the best quality, the microbes poo helps so i dunno bout dat
 
S

snakedope

Well-Known Member
Magnesium Sulfate is Magnesium Sulfate, No matter if it comes from a banana peel or straight as a Mineral (salt) from the ground
The thing is the medium that its in, you can give lets say chicken shit to your plants, but they will burn from that shit decomp in your soil, making the soil hotter as the process moves along.
So altering the state of mediums and salts is a must when dealing with certain stuff
Btw, chicken and bird shit is the SHIT, gather some and put in a bucket of water, stirr and let sit for a couple of days, feed your plants with it, it wont burn them because the decomp heat already took place in the water.
 
F

f.r

Well-Known Member
Nah bro the microbes make the terps! the fact that you don't know that is laughable, lumens and microbes run my home tents.
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
snakedope said:
Thank you, But in the study it says MH bulbs, not HPS, nice editing :P
However, "Other strong emission lines occur at 569, 594, 1,140, 595, and 598 nm" - PAR Range (Mostly)
"There is a dense cluster of strong emission lines from 569 to 616 nm" - Still Par Range
"The mean and standard deviation analysis found that the most variable emission line is at 594, followed by the emission lines at 595, 598, 582, 585, 584, 1,140 and 615 nm" - Still PAR Range

So HPS are Mostly PAR Range Bulbs with some emissions in IR and and past IR
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I didn't edit anything guy, now you are just straight up lying. Here's screenshots to prove my case.

Screenshot 2022-06-02 7.24.36 PM.png
Screenshot 2022-06-02 7.24.58 PM.png

"The strongest emission line is from the set of sodium emissions at 819 nm (Figure 14). "
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
snakedope said:
Magnesium Sulfate is Magnesium Sulfate, No matter if it comes from a banana peel or straight as a Mineral (salt) from the ground
The thing is the medium that its in, you can give lets say chicken shit to your plants, but they will burn from that shit decomp in your soil, making the soil hotter as the process moves along.
So altering the state of mediums and salts is a must when dealing with certain stuff
Btw, chicken and bird shit is the SHIT, gather some and put in a bucket of water, stirr and let sit for a couple of days, feed your plants with it, it wont burn them because the decomp heat already took place in the water.
Click to expand...
It is highly unlikely that you will create magnesium sulfate from a decayed banana peel. You may get elemental Magnesium and elemental Sulphur, once the process is completed, but you aren't going to get Magnesium Sulfate.
 
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