lights that are cooled?? HOW.........

[mihjaro]

That's what i was thinking as far as the ballast btu/heat subject.....didnt sound correct...but as far as the hybrid system we're talking about, maybe his way is the best...

[using the 1 icebox to "cool" + re-ciculate air, not vented, (best if using CO2) and use another icebox with it's own fan attached outside the tent to act as an A/C for surrounding room which all can be ran off the same chiller, lines, manifold,pump ect......that way you can cool everything in your tent/room and cool everything else outside the tent/room...ie; ballast, ambient temp of room, chiller, if it is in the same room]

I'm not sure I understand the last part but at the very least you wouldn't want to use the water to cool the area where the chiller resides. Heat can't be destroyed it can only be moved and it can't be moved with 100% efficiency. So, I think the heat the chiller produces when chilling the water you are using to cool the room where the chiller resides will be greater than the cooling effect of the water. Hydro Innovations definitely recommends that the chiller be in another place from the area to be cooled. It's kind of like running an air conditioner to cool your air conditioner.

Having the chiller, ballast, etc. outside of a lighted area which is sealed means that the ambient temps of the outside will rise but not impact the temps much inside the lighted area. Running a chiller and ballast won't create much more heat than running a big screen tv and high wattage home entertainment system. I have a media closet off of my living room which houses computers and amplifiers that I ended up having to duct A/C into to manage the ambient temp but the house A/C had no problem dealing with it. The equipment in there produces way more heat than a 1/2 HP aquarium chiller and an electronic ballast create.

Here's a chiller than Ive been using to think about a 1000W + CO2 using a hybrid air/water heat management system.

http://www.nationalgardenwholesale.com/ngw/gardening_supplies.aspx?request=HORT_ECPLUS_CHILLER_HALF&title=Pumps / Irrigation&type=product

It's 540W and 5400 BTU of cooling. The Hydro Innovations water cooled MicroGen CO2 system only runs 1250 BTU. The 1000W light produces 3500 BTU so I'm pretty much safe with some to spare. Using Insulated Ducting and the Heat Shield on the light with a fan to use attic air, which tops out about 90 during the lights on period and gets pretty cool in the wee hours of the night (when I'm heating the house I'd run air from the house through the lights and back into the house) should reduce the BTUs from the light substantially. This would mean my chiller would run less often working to keep the temp of the reservoir low.

It's still a sealed room, right? I know the air cooling path is going to leak a little but with a sealed reflector and aluminum tape it shouldn't be much more than the walls/doorway.

 

[jberry]

some more of my 2 cents...

i think if you only have one light than you should be able to cool it without a ice box or chiller, unless you live in a really hot climate or cant run your lights at night or cant get a fresh air intake ...

also, if you are doing a co2 enriched room than you really should be concidering the chiller/ice box method.

I had 5 lights that were air cooled by fresh outside air > threw a sealed lighting system> and back outside... I did this with 8" vortex fans.

I ran the system at night so the air running threw the reflectors would be cold, (night time air around 50's degrees)... This works okay and the first light is cooled well, but by the time the air reaches the 2nd or 3rd or 5th light reflector the air is warm/hot from running across the first light...
the room temp was around 80-90 degrees even though i had a 13,000 btu A/C unit running at all times that the lights were on...

the lesson is: even if you are using cold ass air to run threw your lights/reflectors, the air will still get hot as hell after passing over one light... this shouldnt happen with the ice boxes, because the air keeps getting re-cooled between lights.

if you live where its hot in the day and hot in the night and you want to set up a 8 1000 watt lights, than you are going to need one big ass split system a/c or one big ass chiller... both will use the same amount of power (btu for btu and amp for amp), but the chiller will be able to cool anything in the room that puts off heat, directly at the source, as well as cool your nutrient tank ect... and your a/c just blasts cold air into the room from 1 vent and then relies on wall mounted fans to mix the hot air with the cold air.

i know i keep repeating myself, but sometimes new concepts are hard to grasp... ive been researching all this for a few months and i still have a lot of questions and misunderstandings myself.

 

[That 5hit]

some more of my 2 cents...

i think if you only have one light than you should be able to cool it without a ice box or chiller, unless you live in a really hot climate or cant run your lights at night or cant get a fresh air intake ...

also, if you are doing a co2 enriched room than you really should be concidering the chiller/ice box method.

I had 5 lights that were air cooled by fresh outside air > threw a sealed lighting system> and back outside... I did this with 8" vortex fans.

I ran the system at night so the air running threw the reflectors would be cold, (night time air around 50's degrees)... This works okay and the first light is cooled well, but by the time the air reaches the 2nd or 3rd or 5th light reflector the air is warm/hot from running across the first light...
the room temp was around 80-90 degrees even though i had a 13,000 btu A/C unit running at all times that the lights were on...

the lesson is: even if you are using cold ass air to run threw your lights/reflectors, the air will still get hot as hell after passing over one light... this shouldnt happen with the ice boxes, because the air keeps getting re-cooled between lights.

if you live where its hot in the day and hot in the night and you want to set up a 8 1000 watt lights, than you are going to need one big ass split system a/c or one big ass chiller... both will use the same amount of power (btu for btu and amp for amp), but the chiller will be able to cool anything in the room that puts off heat, directly at the source, as well as cool your nutrient tank ect... and your a/c just blasts cold air into the room from 1 vent and then relies on wall mounted fans to mix the hot air with the cold air.

i know i keep repeating myself, but sometimes new concepts are hard to grasp... ive been researching all this for a few months and i still have a lot of questions and misunderstandings myself.

not only do you have a cool avatar but you are cool also

some more of my 2 cents...

i think if you only have one light than you should be able to cool it without a ice box or chiller, unless you live in a really hot climate or cant run your lights at night or cant get a fresh air intake ...

also, if you are doing a co2 enriched room than you really should be concidering the chiller/ice box method.

I had 5 lights that were air cooled by fresh outside air > threw a sealed lighting system> and back outside... I did this with 8" vortex fans.

I ran the system at night so the air running threw the reflectors would be cold, (night time air around 50's degrees)... This works okay and the first light is cooled well, but by the time the air reaches the 2nd or 3rd or 5th light reflector the air is warm/hot from running across the first light...
the room temp was around 80-90 degrees even though i had a 13,000 btu A/C unit running at all times that the lights were on...

the lesson is: even if you are using cold ass air to run threw your lights/reflectors, the air will still get hot as hell after passing over one light... this shouldnt happen with the ice boxes, because the air keeps getting re-cooled between lights.

if you live where its hot in the day and hot in the night and you want to set up a 8 1000 watt lights, than you are going to need one big ass split system a/c or one big ass chiller... both will use the same amount of power (btu for btu and amp for amp), but the chiller will be able to cool anything in the room that puts off heat, directly at the source, as well as cool your nutrient tank ect... and your a/c just blasts cold air into the room from 1 vent and then relies on wall mounted fans to mix the hot air with the cold air.

i know i keep repeating myself, but sometimes new concepts are hard to grasp... ive been researching all this for a few months and i still have a lot of questions and misunderstandings myself.

 

[jberry]

I'm not sure I understand the last part but at the very least you wouldn't want to use the water to cool the area where the chiller resides. Heat can't be destroyed it can only be moved and it can't be moved with 100% efficiency. So, I think the heat the chiller produces when chilling the water you are using to cool the room where the chiller resides will be greater than the cooling effect of the water. Hydro Innovations definitely recommends that the chiller be in another place from the area to be cooled. It's kind of like running an air conditioner to cool your air conditioner.

Having the chiller, ballast, etc. outside of a lighted area which is sealed means that the ambient temps of the outside will rise but not impact the temps much inside the lighted area. Running a chiller and ballast won't create much more heat than running a big screen tv and high wattage home entertainment system. I have a media closet off of my living room which houses computers and amplifiers that I ended up having to duct A/C into to manage the ambient temp but the house A/C had no problem dealing with it. The equipment in there produces way more heat than a 1/2 HP aquarium chiller and an electronic ballast create.

Here's a chiller than Ive been using to think about a 1000W + CO2 using a hybrid air/water heat management system.

http://www.nationalgardenwholesale.com/ngw/gardening_supplies.aspx?request=HORT_ECPLUS_CHILLER_HALF&title=Pumps / Irrigation&type=product

It's 540W and 5400 BTU of cooling. The Hydro Innovations water cooled MicroGen CO2 system only runs 1250 BTU. The 1000W light produces 3500 BTU so I'm pretty much safe with some to spare. Using Insulated Ducting and the Heat Shield on the light with a fan to use attic air, which tops out about 90 during the lights on period and gets pretty cool in the wee hours of the night (when I'm heating the house I'd run air from the house through the lights and back into the house) should reduce the BTUs from the light substantially. This would mean my chiller would run less often working to keep the temp of the reservoir low.

It's still a sealed room, right? I know the air cooling path is going to leak a little but with a sealed reflector and aluminum tape it shouldn't be much more than the walls/doorway.

i may be misunderstanding you but if you plan on running it 90 degere attic air threw your reflectors, than i think you are setting your self up for disapointing cooling results...

 

[Burger Boss]

i may be misunderstanding you but if you plan on running it 90 degere attic air threw your reflectors, than i think you are setting your self up for disapointing cooling results...

Good grief!!! If you have THAT much of a heat problem, maybe you might want to get away from those energy sucking HID'S.

If I was to set up an indoor grow, it would definitely be CFL's or LED. However, you folks seem to really enjoy all the complications of EXCESS heat, etc., so good luck with that!
BB

 

[mihjaro]

i may be misunderstanding you but if you plan on running it 90 degere attic air threw your reflectors, than i think you are setting your self up for disapointing cooling results...

That's the high point yeah. Usually at the start of the lights on period but it drops from there. Using house A/C and ventilation keeps temps topping out at 75 but when hoping for a sealed room I can't be pushing A/C in and circulating house air through the room. Hence the desire for the IceBox as A/C for in the grow room. They actually make an A/C diffuser now that looks super simple to DIY. But I want to keep the air cooled lights so I can keep the chiller size low. I definitely don't want to spend 1600 on a hydro innovations chiller and I don't want anything hanging out a window or installed outdoors.

How does one convert a degree temperature difference into BTUs. I know I'm running about 1-5 degrees above ambient with lights on (5 degrees when the attic is 90) and almost no difference when the attic gets to around 60. Ambient house temps are around 70 in the summer and we let it get down to 62 at night in the winter. So, how many BTUs does it take to get rid of 5 degrees? That, coupled with the 1250 for the CO2 would really help me size the chiller.

Or, am I completely off track with this water cooling stuff?

 

[jberry]

to sum things up... if you are enriching your room with c02 than all this should be simple...

1.) seal your room up tight!

2.) put the chiller outside the room in a vented area... (1/3 hp per light)

3.) put a ice box on each reflector (on the side of exiting exhaust)

4.) make sure the exhaust coming out of the last reflector is coming out at a min. of 250 cfm.

5.) you dont need any venting at all... use the fan to pull air from the room > threw the lights > and back into your room... The only way you would want to stray away from this method is IF you are using fresh air for your co2...

6.) if you are NOT enriching your room with co2 and plan to use air from outside to provide co2 then there is a lot more questions and concerns to think about.

 

[jberry]

That's the high point yeah. Usually at the start of the lights on period but it drops from there. Using house A/C and ventilation keeps temps topping out at 75 but when hoping for a sealed room I can't be pushing A/C in and circulating house air through the room. Hence the desire for the IceBox as A/C for in the grow room. They actually make an A/C diffuser now that looks super simple to DIY. But I want to keep the air cooled lights so I can keep the chiller size low. I definitely don't want to spend 1600 on a hydro innovations chiller and I don't want anything hanging out a window or installed outdoors.

How does one convert a degree temperature difference into BTUs. I know I'm running about 1-5 degrees above ambient with lights on (5 degrees when the attic is 90) and almost no difference when the attic gets to around 60. Ambient house temps are around 70 in the summer and we let it get down to 62 at night in the winter. So, how many BTUs does it take to get rid of 5 degrees? That, coupled with the 1250 for the CO2 would really help me size the chiller.

Or, am I completely off track with this water cooling stuff?

i would eliminate the co2 burner completely and replace it with a tank and regulator... as far as im concerned the co2 burners should only be used when heat is needed /wanted in icy climates... if you have heat issues i would use a tank because it lets off zero btu's.... that right there would most likely solve all of your worries.

 

[mihjaro]

i would eliminate the co2 burner completely and replace it with a tank and regulator... as far as im concerned the co2 burners should only be used when heat is needed /wanted in icy climates... if you have heat issues i would use a tank because it lets off zero btu's.... that right there would most likely solve all of your worries.

I thought emitters were alot more expensive to operate as bottled CO2 costs alot more than propane.

I'd still want to water cool the room though, right? Without that I'd need exhaust cycles which means a more expensive controller (to coordinate CO2 injections with exhausts needed to remove heat buildup). I've always just used fresh air so cooling has been easy. Keeping a sealed room cool is new to me.

 

[jberry]

""and I don't want anything hanging out a window or installed outdoors.""

you could TRY putting the chiller in the attic next to a attic vent but it may be too stuffy and hot up there.

as far as not wanting to buy a expensive chiller, nobody wants to!
If I have learned one thing in this industry, its buy the good/right stuff the first time or else you will end up upgrading and buying everything twice and installing everything twice, and that does not save any money...

 

[jberry]

I thought emitters were alot more expensive to operate as bottled CO2 costs alot more than propane.

I'd still want to water cool the room though, right? Without that I'd need exhaust cycles which means a more expensive controller (to coordinate CO2 injections with exhausts needed to remove heat buildup). I've always just used fresh air so cooling has been easy. Keeping a sealed room cool is new to me.

yep, they cost more to run, but you are going to have to run a larger chiller / ac to battle the heat from your burner.... its all a viciuos cycle.

honestly, i would not even use co2... i have experience with both and dont think co2 is worth the trouble... UNLESS you are totally sure you know ALL about growing with co2, AND have the big bucks for the real chiller and all the the other stuff they recommend... just my opinion.

 

[mihjaro]

you could TRY putting the chiller in the attic next to a attic vent but it may be too stuffy and hot up there.

as far as not wanting to buy a expensive chiller, nobody wants to!
If I have learned one thing in this industry, its buy the good/right stuff the first time or else you will end up upgrading and buying everything twice and installing everything twice, and that does not save any money...

I agree with both of these points.

Looking at chiller performance curves it's easy to see that temps around the chiller have a big impact. The chillers I looked at don't even operate above 90F.

I definitely know what you mean by having to do things twice. Been there, done that. I don't want to take hydro innovations word, however, that an aquarium chiller wouldn't work given that they sell the only thing else on the block that I've found. There's may be more efficient but I'm looking for something I can stick in the adjoining room that doesn't sound like a converted window shaker. I don't know what the noise specs on either types are since I can't find them anywhere but I'd bet that the hydro innovation chillers sound just like what they are: A/C units.

 

[mihjaro]

yep, they cost more to run, but you are going to have to run a larger chiller / ac to battle the heat from your burner.... its all a viciuos cycle.

honestly, i would not even use co2... i have experience with both and dont think co2 is worth the trouble... UNLESS you are totally sure you know ALL about growing with co2, AND have the big bucks for the real chiller and all the the other stuff they recommend... just my opinion.

Vicious cycle....ain't that the truth.

I'm more interested in sealing the closet so I can reclaim the adjoining bedroom than I am about using CO2. But sealing implies CO2 right?

 

[stumps]

co2 is very cheep compared to propane. It just depends on how and where you get it. It tales allot of propane to make a little co2. No I don't know the break down. I can get co2 for around 20.00 for 20 lb's 20 lb's of propane is about the same cost. propane burns and puts off a small amount of co2. co2 gas is 99% co2 no waste same cost. co2 is about the last thing you need to worry[SIZE=+0] about. Air has more then enough co2 for plants,If your in or close to a big city the co2 is even higher is the air. Just a thought, nothing to do with co2/propane. I was thinking about a sealed room closed system and adding He to the co2 air mix. Don't have a clue if it would help/work. but burn victims are given a blood gas mix of o2/he to help them breath[/SIZE]

 

[jberry]

Good grief!!! If you have THAT much of a heat problem, maybe you might want to get away from those energy sucking HID'S.

If I was to set up an indoor grow, it would definitely be CFL's or LED. However, you folks seem to really enjoy all the complications of EXCESS heat, etc., so good luck with that!
BB

your suggestion shows your ignorance...

IF you were to grow indoors than you would realize a lot of things...but you dont, so you wont.

you can grow a couple of plants with cfl but i would never even bother...

trying to grow a serious large scale crop with led or cfl's is not going to happen, unless you are just interested in fluffy mid grade personal smoke...this isnt the 1960's anymore.

if you were growing 100 plants than you would need like at least 500 cfl bulbs, which is just retarded !... and guess what?? It would still get hotter than shit! CFL put off heat too when you have 500 of them.

i'm not trying to dis anyone using cfl's but i think everyone knows that they arent they ideal set up.

 

[stumps]

thats true watts = heat . I use 180w of cfl light. the two lights put off allot of heat. if I added two more 100w lights I would have about the same heat out put as my 400w hid. and less useable light for the plants.

 

[That 5hit]

your suggestion shows your ignorance...

IF you were to grow indoors than you would realize a lot of things...but you dont, so you wont.

you can grow a couple of plants with cfl but i would never even bother...

trying to grow a serious large scale crop with led or cfl's is not going to happen, unless you are just interested in fluffy mid grade personal smoke...this isnt the 1960's anymore.

if you were growing 100 plants than you would need like at least 500 cfl bulbs, which is just retarded !... and guess what?? It would still get hotter than shit! CFL put off heat too when you have 500 of them.

i'm not trying to dis anyone using cfl's but i think everyone knows that they arent they ideal set up.

i have to agree , i use cfls. and they produce mad heat even with the fan blowing i have 8 42 w'er and 8 26w'er and a whole lot of heat- i plan on switching to a 600w hps system soon i feel as though it will be ezer to cool it down then the cfl setup

 

[jberry]

Vicious cycle....ain't that the truth.

I'm more interested in sealing the closet so I can reclaim the adjoining bedroom than I am about using CO2. But sealing implies CO2 right?

yes, if u want to seal the closet, than you will need to co2 enrich... you can save even more co2/$ by keeping the co2 level at like 600ppm instead of 1200-1600 or whatever... 600 ppm will do you just fine and it will last twice as long.

try putting the chiller in the attic, next to a vent with a fan blowing up there... it just might work.

sorry, i cant really tell you the difference between the aquarium chillers and the chillking but they DO have the same btu's i believe.

 

[That 5hit]

Good grief!!! If you have THAT much of a heat problem, maybe you might want to get away from those energy sucking HID'S.

If I was to set up an indoor grow, it would definitely be CFL's or LED. However, you folks seem to really enjoy all the complications of EXCESS heat, etc., so good luck with that!
BB

what we choose to talk about is our right as riu members and hueman being were not breaking any rules here- go take a piss somewhere eles- why take from our injoyment- learn what you can learn and add what you can add Peace and love


oh yeah + rep for being a dick

 

[mihjaro]

co2 is very cheep compared to propane. It just depends on how and where you get it. It tales allot of propane to make a little co2. No I don't know the break down. I can get co2 for around 20.00 for 20 lb's 20 lb's of propane is about the same cost. propane burns and puts off a small amount of co2. co2 gas is 99% co2 no waste same cost. co2 is about the last thing you need to worry[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]

really. what kind of stores refill CO2 tanks. If they are comparably priced I'd definitely go with an emitter system as I'm kind of sketched out by the idea of a gas grill sized tank of propane being in my house. I don't even keep camping propane in the house, I'm so paranoid about gas. I don't mind pressure or electricity but that propane stuff will blow up!