1st Grow, Ebb & Flow system, Hydroton

[Dapps420]

Howdy!

Im a newbie to hydro, as well as these forums, but have been toking for quite some time. I recently purchased an Ebb& Flow system and was looking for some advice! The plants themselves are about 3"-4", and they are about 1 week old. My setup is as follows:

Lighting:
1 Sunsystem 150W HPS.
From what I have learned so far, this is more than enough for 1sq. foot of a growing table, its not large at all, but im hoping for at least two plants.... Perhaps I am wrong?
The lamp is about 16Inches above the tray. The timer is set to ON: 7AM; OFF: 1AM.

Irrigation:
I have a 132GPH submersable pump. Its set to run twice a day, at 7AM when the lights turn on and 7PM 5 hours before the lights go out. I have a thermometer on the inside of the resevoir and it is reading about 82degrees on a regular basis. I know thats not good, so I am going to try swapping frozen water bottles throughout the course of the day to try and bring the temp down.

Growing Medium:
I germinated the seeds (Random seeds I have been collecting for years) in a moist paper towel and got 10 seedlings so far (I figured the more I start out with the better of a chance I have to end up with at least two). I dropped the seeds in 1.5" Rockwool plugs. A few days later the roots were coming out the bottom so I decided to get some Hydroton and try it out. I soaked the crap out of the Hydroton until the water ran clean and placed the rockwool cubes directly in the tray about 1" under the top of the Hydroton.

Growing Environment:
Its a closet setup, and gets quite hot. I have not purchased a thermometer yet for the room, but its prob about 80-85 degrees in the evening. I'm not sure about humidity, but I havn't seen any issues with the seedlings yet.

Nutrient Solution:
Currently I am using the nutrients that came with the hydroponics system I purchased from Sunshine Hydro (very helpful staff btw) Its Dyna-Gro Liquid Grow Plant Food 7-9-5... Not sure if this is good fert for my budds.

I am also using Green Fuse Root Stimulator, I figured why not? I mix all of this with Wal-mart "Great Value" brand drinking water, balance the PH, and let the system do its thing, and so far so good.

Some Problems:
-The Water Temp... too high..
-The water seems to be slimy, and has a slight white tinge to it... (when the solution is fresh, its green)
-Room temp... maybe too hot?
-Too many seedlings for such a small bed? I will thin them out as they start to grow, and only keep the strongest... Seem like a good idea, or should I but another tray, and set up another system with the same pump? Or maybe buy another pump? I don't have a lot of money to spend though.

So anyway, take a look at my pictures and let me know if you think I am on the right track. I would greatly appreciate any input from the experts.
and be happy

 

[Dapps420]

Sorry the Pics are a little dark, if you would like to see better ones, let me know! Thank you everyone for your knowledge, it has gotten me this far!

 

[Dapps420]

Oh Oh, and I forgot! I used Flora Clean to flush once, becuase I saw some crystal like stuffs on the outside of the Rockwool last week.

Also is it safe to Pre-Mix Nutrient Solution and leave in gallon jugs until needed? Or should it only be mixed right before adding it to the system? What exactly is an Air Stone, and should I use one? Or should I purchase an air pump?

 

[dopedragon]

Oh Oh, and I forgot! I used Flora Clean to flush once, because I saw some crystal like stuffs on the outside of the Rockwool last week.

Also is it safe to Pre-Mix Nutrient Solution and leave in gallon jugs until needed? Or should it only be mixed right before adding it to the system? What exactly is an Air Stone, and should I use one? Or should I purchase an air pump?

An air pump with air stones is a must. Roots thrive on oxygenated water. Nutes can be left for a few days with a cap in a jug, wouldn't leave it for too long though and you should test the ppm and ph before you use it.

I'm confused tho, I wouldn't recommend growing all those plants in one flood table. For one you don't which are male and female. When you pull the males you will leave dead rotting material and that will cause disease. I suggest a drip system somewhere else to veg your plants under cfls and a place to determine sex, then move the ladies to the flood table.

 

[Dapps420]

Hmm... I see, thanks for the reply! I will have to read up on the sexing aspect, I assumed it was too soon to even consider, but I see what your saying about the dead material left behind. I will also be purchasing an air pump today. Thanks again! Any other comments are always appreciated!

 

[dopedragon]

Hmm... I see, thanks for the reply! I will have to read up on the sexing aspect, I assumed it was too soon to even consider, but I see what your saying about the dead material left behind. I will also be purchasing an air pump today. Thanks again! Any other comments are always appreciated!

Frozen 2L bottles for the water and fans to control the temp.

 

[Dapps420]

Oook, so I added a five inch air stone hooked up to an air pump. I also changed the solution because it was looking all cloudy form being stagnant.I have also been rotating the frozen water bottles and the temp of the water is generally between 60-75 depending on how often I change them out (almost 4 or 5 times a day). Also I picked up a thermometer/Hydrometer, and the Temp low (at night) is 79 degrees and the temp high (around 7pm) is 88 degrees. They seem to be doing really well. The solution looks to be a lot healthier now that it has an air pump. Thanks! Ill be posting new pics soon.

 

[simpsonsampson420]

Some Problems:
-The Water Temp... too high.. sounds like you figured this one out... unless you have a water chiller you'll have to change out water bottles.. its a pain in the ass.. but temps above 80 will make for slow growth and can cook the roots

-The water seems to be slimy, and has a slight white tinge to it... (when the solution is fresh, its green) i dont know what you mean by the water is slimy.. but i can tell you temps you are running are ideal for algae growth... try to keep them down.. and make sure to change the reservoir out frequently to avoid issues... you may also want to put some hydrogen peroxide in the res to kill any bacteria/algae/fungus present

-Room temp... maybe too hot? the temps your running are a little high.. if you can get them down about 10 degrees that would be good.. but if res temps are ok, then its less of an issue...

-Too many seedlings for such a small bed? I will thin them out as they start to grow, and only keep the strongest... Seem like a good idea, or should I but another tray, and set up another system with the same pump? Or maybe buy another pump? I don't have a lot of money to spend though. you can run 2 trays off the 1 pump with no problem.. your biggest problem will come if the roots start growing together.. transplanting soon is a must... if the root systems do start tangling up with one another you'll have a hell of a time serperating them..


having the air stone will make a HUGE difference.. but it will also raise the temps of the res.. since it uses air around the res, the warmer the temps, the more it will warm the res... just a heads up there... but having a well aerated solution will do wonders...

as far as the white cloud it can be a simple nutrient cloud... i cant think off the top of my head which nutes do this, but if 2 specific nutes get mixed together without 1 being mixed right, or is added before the other, it can form a white cloud in your water.. its calcium something... fuck me... to early to think.. i'll post it later when i figure it out... just make sure if you are using a 3 part system to add the micro/boost formula first and mix well, then add the gro or bloom formula...

and lastly here is just a little list of things to remember

1) keep ph between 5.5 and 6.5... 5.8 to 6.2 ideal.. but dont try to adjust daily.. a little bit of a ph swing through the week is ok... if you need to adjust it just do a few points at a time.. anything over .5 at a time can cause issues..

2) make sure to watch your ppm... dont use to strong of a nute solution

3) make sure to keep the reservoir sealed from light... light coupled with the temps you have can grow algae easily...

4) just try to maintain a mid 60's to lower 70's res temp as best you can...


other wise things look and sound good.. keep me informed how they are going!

 

[Dapps420]

Hey man, Thank you so much for your tips, I admire all of you with such knowledge. I'm heading out to my local hydro shop to pick up some fittings, then I'm going to Walmart to pick up some Tray like bins, and I'm going to bump my system up a notch... I'm worried though perhaps I will have to buy another 150W Lamp? Also How much room should I allow for the roots, If I'm shooting for a 3-4ft plant? I see people using pots and placing them in the tray table, as apposed to just plopping in hydroton and putting them in there. What method is best? If I were to use the pots, how big should they be, and what sort of drainage should be allowed? Simple Holes on the bottom or? Thanks for your help! Much appreciated, I can't wait till harvest

 

[Closet Grow (BuD)]

Nice grow setup so far, Simpson basically told you everything... But seriously try to seperate those because if you leave them for another week or 2 they will have tangles roots and that is a pain in the a$$.
good luck SUB'D

 

[Dapps420]

awesome thanks! I just got back from the stores, and have everything i need to fix my setup, I'm even going to have a separate reservoir to make for easier maintenance and changing. I Bought Basket Pots, to allow the roots to spread but I plan on putting them on a few inches apart, but I dont think that I will be transplanting them again so should I be worried about roots tangling if transplanting will not be an issue? The only issue I can think of is when I sex them, and remove the males, I may have a problem.......... I'm going to give it a shot anyway, more tips are always obliged. Thanks I will post pics of my new setup asap

 

[simpsonsampson420]

Hey man, Thank you so much for your tips, I admire all of you with such knowledge. I'm heading out to my local hydro shop to pick up some fittings, then I'm going to Walmart to pick up some Tray like bins, and I'm going to bump my system up a notch... I'm worried though perhaps I will have to buy another 150W Lamp? Also How much room should I allow for the roots, If I'm shooting for a 3-4ft plant? What method is best? If I were to use the pots, how big should they be, and what sort of drainage should be allowed? Simple Holes on the bottom or? Thanks for your help! Much appreciated, I can't wait till harvest

alright... so we have a little bit of an issue with the light situation...

first 3 to 4 foot plants is way to big for 150w lights... if you are planning on growing that big you might as well get a 600w light or 1000w light, expand the set up a little, and have more plants... if you want a couple 18'', maybe 24" plants, that you will train a little, then 150w is ok... so that is something you will have to decide...

with hydro root space isnt such an issue.. since they are flooded when fed the plant wont ever have to worry about nutes or water.. so you can have a smaller pot size and still get larger plants.. but i would recommend at least a 2 gallon pot... 3 gallons is about as big as you need to go....

now... i guess im a little confused on what sort of hydro set up you are going with... or at least what you mean by "I see people using pots and placing them in the tray table, as apposed to just plopping in hydroton and putting them in there.".. i ate a couple special treats i made yesterday and today.. so im a little off.. so i'm prolly just reading more into it than i should.. but if you could explain what you mean by that or word it differently for me i am sure i can give you an answer...

regardless of how you do it you want to make sure that all, or almost all of the nute solution is drained either back into the reservoir or wherever you drain to waste...

 

[duguP]

Thanks for posting. I had a few of the same questions for my grow as well

 

[Dapps420]

Hmm... I see. Ok well I'm still in the process of getting my new setup going. Im putting a lid over the baskets to keep the root area dark (almost like an aero ponics setup, but with much more hydroton, some also in the tray. I understand how it can be confusing... Give me a little while until I finish setting up, Ill post some pictures to show you what I mean, if there are any issues after that, Ill deal with them accordingly! I am also thinking that another light is going to be necessary. I'm a bit worried about my electric bill, but I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem... right?

For that matter, I purchased this stuff on a debit or credit card at a hydro store, I'm not the paranoid type, but should I be concerned hah?

anyway, Ill post pics as soon as I have them. This lid is a pain in the ass to cut with a saw.

 

[simpsonsampson420]

i've been thinking about possible answers or meanings to your question about leaving pots in the thing...

anyways.. i have two answers so far.. so here they are.. the first thing i think you are talking about are big flood trays/tables.. in which large (5"x5" or even 6"x6" http://www.wormsway.com/detail.aspx?t=prod&sku=PB375&AC=1 ) rock wool cubes is usually used as a medium.... nute solutions flood the trays and then drain.. either back into a reservoir or drain to waste... these are good for clone setups since rockwool cubes dont offer a ton of root space... but can support a straight to flower 12/12 clone very easily...

these tables can also utilize a drip system as well..

either work great... both take adjusting for watering schedules... both can have similar concerns tho...

again rockwool can lower ph.. and takes a while to level out.. you can soak these cubes in ph'd water for 24 hours to help avoid this... but if that cant happen you may need to adjust the ph a few times over the first few days to a week...

having exposed area to light can promote algae growth... using a chemical nute with a little hydrogen peroxide in it will not only kill all bacteria and fungus but will also add some oxygen to the water.... a good ventilation system will help also....


the other system i have come up with is an aeroponics system in which the plants are suspend and grow in the "air" or a dwc system where the roots are grown in highly oxygenated water... either of these can be done it tiny 3" net pots...

in an aero system the roots are suspended in air and are sprayed with a nutrient solution.. either constantly or on a timed schedule such as 1 min on 4 min off..

in a dwc system roots are suspended in a nutrient solution that is highly oxygenated via an airstone or air pump...

both take almost no medium.. and look like there can be no medium at all depending how pics are taken... but i could still be wrong.. and probably am.. but figured i'd give it a shot..

 

[simpsonsampson420]

try to pay with cash... the less of a trail the better.. make the stop at an atm if you need too..

and you can get another light if you want.. but again, if you are going to do it you might as well go for a 600w hps with a digital ballast... its the most ecomonical way and will maximize your lighting and the way your money is invested...

i run 2500w's 24/0 for veg and it only adds about 25 to 30 on my elec bill... its not a lot of light at all and nothing to be worried about.. especially if you run an 18/6 for veg..

 

[Dapps420]

Hey Simpson, Thanks for the posts! You were pretty much dead on with the DWC system... I guess. I thought I was still doing Ebb and Flow, but I know nothing. I built this entire setup today and just finished, I snapped some photos to go along. Take a look and let me know what you think. Im hoping the reflectors will maximize my 150W HPS for now. I suppose they dont need to be too big, I'm just looking for a successful first grow. In any case, I have a seperate resevoir now so it will be a little easier for maintanence, and PH measurments. Its an 8 Gallon res... I switched to GH 3 Step system. I put 7tsp in for 8 gallons of water of each of the three nutes. Thats what the guy at the store told me to do any how. Oh and plus root Stimpulator. The plants had a tough day today getting transplanted and all... They are looking a little droopy, hopefully they will rebound. Im planning on covering the bottom half of the table with black ducktape as to keep light out and allow the roots to expand. Also I am planning to flood about 4 inches into the tray for 15 min once a day (when the lights come one). This should touch most of the rockwool cubes if not 1/2 way up, than at least 1/4 way. Does this sound reasonable? Perhaps two times a day as the plants get larger, but I imagine that leaving the lid on the tray is going to keep it very very moist in there. Hopefully I am on the right track, I put a ton of work into this new setup, let me know what you think? Thanks man.

 

[eXploit]

awesome thread dude...answered man Q's i had aswell...i would appreciate some "plumbing" pics of ur tank... pics of where ur inlets/outlets are etc...

also what timings are u using on ur flood? i ask because i want to go ebb n' flow and i've read everything from twice daily to 15mins every 4 hrs, etc...

keep up the great updates man...peace

 

[Dapps420]

Alrighty... So I woke up this morning, and there are two plants that are severely drooped , actually one of them is my biggest and best . I imagine it is the cause of root damage in transplant... A few of the plants were already rooted pretty well in the old box, prior to transplanting, so when I moved them I dont think it worked very well for them... the other plants look the same as they did last night. The only thing is... I read somewhere that if the veins in the plants are raised like in pic 4 of my last post, it means they are trying to get rid of moisture, so they are being over watered. Is that true or do they look this way becuase they are brand new leaves? In any case, I'm upset that two of them are not doing well at all, (if not already dying) but I'm happy that the rest of them are looking ok. Some leaves are pointing down, does that mean that i am over nuting? Like I said I switched to the GH 3 Part system, so there is a lot of measuring going on, but I have precised measuring shot glasses with tsp on them, and my measurements were exact!...

Oh,EXploit, I will try to post some photos of the pluming parts, but I used a hose from my pump into at netted fitting that keeps it from plashing everywhere, it fills the box about 4 Inches for 15 min ONCE a day (for now... I may switch to twice a day after I study how the plants are reacting to the new system.) The overflow valve is actually a laudry hose I bought at walmart that has a rubber end to it so it helps seal the hole up. Then I took some Loctite Epoxy underwater cement/glue and worked it in real good around the cracks... there are still TINY TINY leaks but I can deal with it for now. Oh an my air pump goes right into a check valve, then splits to two hoses where there are two 12 inch, bubble stones at the bottom of my res. Any other questions just ask, I check the thread pretty often, so I will be glad to help.

Sooo... this day is off to a pretty shity start, two of my babies are dying and I'm not sure if my new system works well... I guess its a wait and see. If anyone has any advice just let me know!

Dapps420

 

[Dapps420]

Im not sure but I may have a problem with my flooding amount... It doesnt seem like the Rockwool is getting thouroughly soaked when the water comes around... What level of moisture should I be looking for in the rockwool? My take floods to about 1/4 up the RW, but I'm not sure if thats enough, I can't flood anymore cuz its a ten gallon res and I'm already up to ten gallons. So my only other option is to lower the rockwool into the net pots so it can get deeper into the tray to get more water... Any suggestions?