The Never Ending Abuse of Phosphorous (Bloom foods) to Enhance Flowering

[Drr]

Wasn't trying to test any theories.. just tellin ya that my 10" pots easily supported 60" plants. Sure, they could've been bigger; I chose my switch to 12/12 arbitrarily. You said a plant only grows as high as its roots' depth.. maybe you didn't mean that literally. And I wasn't really thinking of the pot as a ballast. For the space I have, maxing out plant size in veg isn't an option, as much fun as it might be.

As far as Phos or any other nutrient flowing one way or another in a pot or plant, non-usage in one growth process doesn't translate to usage in another. It's not necessarily an "either/or" process. And, it's only partly true that root growth occurs at night. Roots grow day and night, but at different rates. In general, root growth is FASTER at night, but WHY?

Because in natural soil, the roots experience the warmer temperatures of daytime later at NIGHT, because there is a lag from when the daytime heat hits below the soil surface. So, the greater root growth is due to TEMPERATURE, not light or time of day per se. So, soil in pots in an indoor environment experience warmer temps when your light is ON, not off and thus, the normal natural relationship is inversed by the artificial environment.

So, there is no reason for root growth to take off when you go to 12/12. Quite the opposite... root growth slows down in 12/12 because they experience more time in the cool (unless you have rigid temp control in your room, which some do).

thanks for the info.. and I didnt mean it literally.. but i mean the pot size and more so weight can be a factor.. due it it falling over.. it wont do that to itself.. it will stop going up and bush out as far as it can.. I have experience with 2 clones like this.. 5 inch pots not big at all..

 

[frostythesnowthug]

bit slow on catching this thread..
i've been supplementing my plants with veg nutes all the way thru flowering since i started growing, just at 1/3 dose i would use during veg period.
I had a lil yellowing a couple of times and figured it was common sense to try to supply enough GROW type nutes during flowering, to maintain healthy new growth yet not soo much as it slows up the flowering process..
Works fine for me.. minimal stretch,dense buds and retain leaves til harvest.
My nutes of choice are generally biobizz grow, biobizz bloom or canna flores cant remeber the NPK levels...maybe a lil molasses and topmax if i have it to hand.

Interesting thread & Nice plants UB - keep up the great work - +rep

 

[Kriegs]

thanks for the info.. and I didnt mean it literally.. but i mean the pot size and more so weight can be a factor.. due it it falling over.. it wont do that to itself.. it will stop going up and bush out as far as it can.. I have experience with 2 clones like this.. 5 inch pots not big at all..

Cool.. It dawned on me what you meant as I was typing and by then, I just said what the heck... peace...

 

[Stoney Jake]

half gallon bags...They werent supposed to get this big lol week 4 of 10. Just starting to pack on the buds. Doesnt matter what size pot you put them in as long as you give them what they need they will grow as big as the strain wants to. These would easily be 36-40" tall plants if I didnt bend them

These clones have had grow nutes the whole way through(and bloom in flowering of course) and they havent yellowed one single leaf. They look 100 times better then the mothers they came from. Thanks again for helping me to see common sense UB

 

[Roseman]

Uncle Ben,

I try to read eveyrthing you post and skip the inbetween BS posts argueing with you.
(Like on that Lolipopping thread)

I am on my 8th indoor closet hydroponic grow, and I am experimenting with Nitrogen in the Flowering Cycle because of your posts.

I was using Bloom nutes with NO Nitrogen at all in them. I used them on 7 grows. I was told for the past 3 years that it ws natural for the plant's lower leaves to yellow and fall off during Flowring and I mistakenly accepted that as fact. HERD mentality.

What made me doubt it is when I grew outdoors in heavy fertilized patches many yers ago, heavy in manure and all kinds of nitrogen, none of the lower fan leaves yellowed and fell off then.

Then I read up on ADVANCED NUTRIENTS.
I was told by many growers that use them that they will balance the pH for you and you can toss the pH UP and the pH Down if you use Advanced Nutrients.
Sounded good to me, so I ordered the BLOOM, and they came in two one gallon jugs, labeled Part A and Part B. The instructions say to add them separately to the tank and make the ppm 800 to 900 per reservoir or 1.8 tablespoon per gallon of water.
That was simple enough.

I noticed that one container contained NO Nitrogen, and very high on Phosperous and very little Potassium.
The other container was High on Nitrogen, Low on Phosperous and High on Potassium.
Hmmmmm??? Nitrogen in Bloom Nutes????? That was rare to me.

They claim that ADVANCED NUTRIENTS is one of the very few nutrients sold and labeled that they are made especially for marijuana growing.

Hhhhhmmmm? Bloom Nutes High in Nitrogen??????

The container labeled High in Nitrogen looks like Liquid Karma, it is a brown liquid and not thin either. I decided to remain loyal to my SH pre-packaged nutes for this grow, but I wanted to try the ADVANCED NUTRIENTS, so I used them ONLY in my 5 gallon experimental bucket.

After two days, I noticed a couple of changes.
One, first thing I noticed is they started having a stronger skunk smell again, like when they were in the VEG cycle. A few days after I first started the BLOOM nutes , the strong smell diminshed. After adding the Advanced Nutrients with Nitrogen, the bad stink came back And strong too.
Two, secondly I noticed that the the lower third of the plant's leaves QUIT having dying off, falling off, yellowing leaves. I was averaging 3 or 4 leaves a day falling off per plant, and suddenly NONE fell off. They all quit yellowing and falling off.
Three, I noticed all kinds of new green leaves growing out of the flowers or bud sites.

Hhhhmmmm, had to be the Nitrogen!

So I spent almost an entire day googling and searching for info on adding Nitrogen during the Flowereing Cycle. VERY INTERESTING.
I ALSO LOOKED THROUGH 4 BOOKS. All I could find is advice saying DO NOT ADD VEG NUTES(Nitrogen) DURING THE BLOOM CYCLE, because of the affect on TASTE. There was no other reason NOT to do it.

So, I asked some expert growers.
You said that you always adds a small amount of Nitrogen nutes to the Bloom Cycle and none of your lower leaves yellow and fall off.
A nameless large outdoor commerical grower that I know told me he digs a giant hole and throws all the dirt away and fills the hole back up with an assortment of different soils, peat moss, all kinds of different manure and bat poop and all kinds of nitrogen. He said when his plants naturally go to 12/12, they never shed a lower leaf. He never adds any phosperous or anything else either. He grows those 15 to 20 foot tall trees too.
He said he does not flush them, how could he flush an outdoor tree in soil? And he says that he never gets any nitrogen-fertilizer taste in his buds either.

And in my asking around, many indoor hydro growers say their secret trick is to add a little Nitrogen during BLOOM to get larger plants and larger buds and a larger harvest.

So, on my other two tanks, when I added one gallon of water back, I added 1/6 packet of my regular VEG nutes. Now they are not shedding any leaves and the bud sites are rapidly filling in too.

And they are all stinking to high heaven.


I think most books and many experienced growers are wrong about this Nitrogen in Flowering Cycle and nee dto experiment with it to get larger yields..

And let me tell you two years ago, (I have pics) I was helping my X wife do a grow at her house, and her husband bought a book and wanted to lollipop her plants and she did. She averaged one and half oucnes of dried buds frome each plant, while I averaged 4, growing the same strain, in the same DWC system with the same lights.

Just because someone makes a name for a procedure , doesn't make it right.

 

[thewinghunter]

I appreciate the advice uncle ben i go into flowering on the 14

 

[Mammath]

Great post Roseman because the 'proofs in the pudding' so to speak.
Great experiment mate, and hopefully we've all learned a lot from your 'actual' experience.

I have posted about this earlier but I want to chime in again here to agree that N still plays a very important roll in flowering.

I always run plenty of N during flowering and almost lose no leaves, even until the end with a flush.
In my latest grow however, I've dropped the N from 20% to 14% during flowering by changing from 'Canna' to 'House and Garden' bloom nutes. ( I'm a coco - hydro fella)

I did this purely because 20% seemed too much, and probably was during flowering, but even at 14% my current plant is deep green with no loss of leaves and I'm at day 52.

It grieves the shit out of me when I see plants dropping yellow leaves at day 28.

Healthy foliage = healthy flowers in my experience

 

[Roseman]

This thread needs bumping.

 

[Roseman]

My experiments of adding N to my Bubbleponics grow are mind-blowing. I am adding a very very small amount of VEG nutes, every three days, and I have not picked up one dead leaf in two weeks now. My lower bottom 1/3 of each plant is very thick lucuious green too. My buds are thickening and growing like crazy too.

Look at the last 3 or 4 pages for pics here:
Roseman's DIY Bubbleponics Tutorial - Marijuana Growing

 

[GrowingStrains]

I would have to say that these factors arent direct to growers results. I noticed a few replies like mine here, i used 20-20-20 veg and now on 10-52-10, switched to that after 3ft plants, and they still look gorgeous just sitting on the ground in the closet. 2nd week of flowering now and all good. I like these debates tho... and you'll never know if it wont work until you try it, and hopefully using good soil and light.
DIEMS

 

[Uncle Ben]

My experiments of adding N to my Bubbleponics grow are mind-blowing. I am adding a very very small amount of VEG nutes, every three days, and I have not picked up one dead leaf in two weeks now. My lower bottom 1/3 of each plant is very thick lucuious green too. My buds are thickening and growing like crazy too.

Look at the last 3 or 4 pages for pics here:
Roseman's DIY Bubbleponics Tutorial - Marijuana Growing

Yep, it's all about the leaves, NOT the bud!

I would have to say that these factors arent direct to growers results. I noticed a few replies like mine here, i used 20-20-20 veg and now on 10-52-10, switched to that after 3ft plants, and they still look gorgeous just sitting on the ground in the closet.

Be interesting to see how gorgeous they look after being hit with a 10-52-10 for weeks on end.

It aint about debates, it's all about botany as you're soon to find out.

Good luck,
UB

 

[shannonball]

UB knows his weed. i've been following his advice for the past two years and never had an issue with his postings...we've been growing since 1975, mainly outdoors as we have the space and privacy, along with a few indoor grows. we recently switched to blue mountain organics and alternate feedings/waterings...when in the bloom stage we use something along this line...water one week, the next time use grow it green at 1/3 strength along with flower power, next time water and use a foliar spray, then the next time flower power only, and repeat the whole cycle...so we are giving them some N about every three time...here is a chart we use in case you are interested.

Yep, it's all about the leaves, NOT the bud!



Be interesting to see how gorgeous they look after being hit with a 10-52-10 for weeks on end.

It aint about debates, it's all about botany as you're soon to find out.

Good luck,
UB

 

[Uncle Ben]

Thanks for playing along! It's all about learning to read your plants, eh?

 

[MostlyCrazy]

You got it right UB! Reading the plant is where it's at. Roseman lead me to this thread and I will change my usual way of doing things and add more N as I transition. I use the GH Flora line and usually go with a 1-2-3 mix in flower right at 12/12. I think I'll go 2-2-3 this time around in an effort to support the stretch and help eliminate the usual leaf drop. Stronger plants for better bud!

 

[jjf1978]

Good on ya! That's how it's done. Have enough N available to support green (healthy) productive leaves. I tend to err on the high side of N during flowering because I understand it's leaves that produce flowers. Why anyone would sit there and watch their lower leaves prematurely drop is beyond me.
UB

This is exactly what is happening to me. I use Techniflora products (attached picture), BC Boost/Bloom, Sugar Daddy, MagiCal and Awesome Blossom during flowering. I am not sure what the ratios are, just by adding up the N-P-K values marked on each product it adds up to 9-16-21. Is this an accurate way to find the overall NPK values?

Anyway I have been wondering how to slow down or stop the lower fan leaves from dying so early. By week 5 all the lower fan leaves are yellow and the upper leaves are starting to yellow. I am not sure if the flowering mix doesnt provide enough N or whether I'm experiencing a pH problem and nutrients are being locked out. I measured my soil runoff at 6.0.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Picture of my white rhino week 5 flowering

 

[Mr Bomb]

imo, a healthy plant can take the vicious amounts of bloom boosters that you give it. Thats why the veg period is important. you wanna build strong roots, health, etc. to prepare it for the stressful attack of flowering.

I think I have finally found it. This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

 

[Uncle Ben]

This is exactly what is happening to me. I use Techniflora products (attached picture), BC Boost/Bloom, Sugar Daddy, MagiCal and Awesome Blossom during flowering. I am not sure what the ratios are, just by adding up the N-P-K values marked on each product it adds up to 9-16-21. Is this an accurate way to find the overall NPK values?

If you used equal amounts of the 4 products, add, and then divide by 4. It should give you the NPK values that your plants "see". It's quite obvious by your photos they're are not getting enough N. It's time to react.

Anyway I have been wondering how to slow down or stop the lower fan leaves from dying so early.

See the above response. That means switching to a high N food like a 30-10-10 or a 9-3-6. You have a choice - either go with The Herd's affinity for Bloom foods label hype, or give your plants what they require to remain healthy and productive.

Your call,
UB

[/QUOTE]

 

[Uncle Ben]

You got it right UB! Reading the plant is where it's at. Roseman lead me to this thread and I will change my usual way of doing things and add more N as I transition. I use the GH Flora line and usually go with a 1-2-3 mix in flower right at 12/12.

You're almost there, but not quite. A plant transitions because of hormonal changes, phytochrome, not because you have changed foods. It does not go hand in hand. You are here to support the plant's processes, throughout flowering, not some point in time. A plant makes it's own food and doesn't need our help other than giving it what it needs to maintain leaves in a green and healthy condition until harvest. Forget the bud and the ads, concentrate on the leaves.

UB

 

[riddleme]

Hey Uncle Ben

have posted a few pics here
https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/276324-nutes-budget.html
that I hope show what you are talking about, good, lush leaf development

Thank you so much for being here and sharing what you do/know

 

[Roseman]

Happy thanskgiving, friends!