The Never Ending Abuse of Phosphorous (Bloom foods) to Enhance Flowering

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
Thanks UB!

I do have a small Fungus Gnat problem, I've seen just a few of them so I neem oiled but they are still hanging around. I also flushed yesterday in case it was a build up of salts, hopfully that does the trick.

Thanks Again!
Dr Gruber, go buy some mosquito dunks immediately. You can find them at any Lowes or Home Depot in the insecticide section. There are a couple of ways to use it.

Add a dunk to your reservoir, and keep it in there at all times. Just water like normal, and the bacteria in the dunks will put an end to the fungus gnats. It disrupts the larvae cycle preventing new adults from growing and laying eggs. If you dont have a reservoir to put it in, you can simple crush up the dunks and put a quarter of a teaspoon of it on top of your soil and just water like normal. It'll take 2 weeks to really see a drop in them, and by the end of 3 or 4 weeks your problem will be gone. You may see a lone gnat here and there, but since I have been using them my problem is gone.

Ive tried some of the things Riddleme said. Sand is better than perlite since its not as course and harder for them to get past, but it makes watering from above just about impossible, so be prepared to water from the bottom up if you go that route. Im not a fan of the drying out technique to try and kill the larvae. That just puts our plants under more stress, and it probably isn't highly effective.

Also, ditch the Neem Oil. Its useless for killing fungus gnats, ime. Its a pain in the ass to mix up, and stinks all to hell.
 

Dr Gruber

Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone for your replies and advice.

I will try the "dunks"...I agree the Neem oil stinks....didnt want to use it again because of that.
At this point I only see 1 or 2 of them floating around, when I had a Gnat problem on a previous grow I could see 30 or 40 of those suckers flying around.

I want rid of them once and for all so the Dunks sound like good advice.

BTW, where do these things come from...I try so hard to keep it clean but they always show up?
Could it be eggs in the Foxfarm soil that i use?
 

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone for your replies and advice.

I will try the "dunks"...I agree the Neem oil stinks....didnt want to use it again because of that.
At this point I only see 1 or 2 of them floating around, when I had a Gnat problem on a previous grow I could see 30 or 40 of those suckers flying around.

I want rid of them once and for all so the Dunks sound like good advice.

BTW, where do these things come from...I try so hard to keep it clean but they always show up?
Could it be eggs in the Foxfarm soil that i use?
30-40 would have been a dream come true for me about 4 weeks ago. As soon as I would open my tent, I would get assaulted by the little fuckers. I put about 10 yellow gnat strips in my tent, and within 3 days they were completely covered. Now, Id be hard pressed to find a gnat buzzing around.

The gnats pretty much always show up in your soil, or compost that you might buy. I would suggest to always pretreat the soil you buy with a watering solution that contains the mosquito dunks, or to crush them up and add it to your soil and water it in.

I had made up two 18 gallon tubs of soil awhile back, and moistened it with some water from my reservoir that had mosquito dunks in it. Those tubs of soil never developed any gnat problems, yet my plants were infested with them took a few weeks to be rid of the gnats.

Now Im gnat free, and so happy. Getting gnats in your buds is quite annoying. I had that happen on my last grow. Not this time.
 

Dr Gruber

Well-Known Member
30-40 would have been a dream come true for me about 4 weeks ago. As soon as I would open my tent, I would get assaulted by the little fuckers. I put about 10 yellow gnat strips in my tent, and within 3 days they were completely covered. Now, Id be hard pressed to find a gnat buzzing around.

The gnats pretty much always show up in your soil, or compost that you might buy. I would suggest to always pretreat the soil you buy with a watering solution that contains the mosquito dunks, or to crush them up and add it to your soil and water it in.

I had made up two 18 gallon tubs of soil awhile back, and moistened it with some water from my reservoir that had mosquito dunks in it. Those tubs of soil never had a single gnat buzzing around in it, yet my untreated plants were infested with the fuckers.

Now Im gnat free, and so happy. Getting gnats in your buds is quite annoying. I had that happen on my last grow. Not this time.

Thats a great idea....i'll be getting those dunks tomorrow, and will treat my soil with them from now on.

With as many as you had, did you see obvious problems they caused?

Now just to get this straight; 1/4 teaspoon spread over the dirt and then watered....how many times do I need to do it?
 

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
I never had any problems caused by the gnats. All my plants looked great and were healthy except for one runt, but it was a runt from the moment it cracked the surface of the soil. I didn't have bad gnat problems back then, but it probably didn't help to have to deal with it later in life. I ended up culling it.

If your plants are already in pots, I would either place the dunk in your water source and water as usual, or if you dont have a reservoir, just crush it up and topdress each pot with 1/4th of a teaspoon.

If your just pretreating soil before using it, you can either moisten your soil with water thats already been treated with the Dunks, or you can just crush up the dunks and mix it into your soil like you would do with any amendment, but you'll still need to water afterwards.

You'll only need to treat your soil once afaik.
 

Illumination

New Member
Why bother with RO water when tap water is fine for soil?

This link explains the relationships better than I can or ever will be able to. http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/IPAWaterQuality.pdf
Go to this link and READ IT OVER AND OVER!!! For reals!!! Once it clicks you will amaze yourself!!!
Thanx UB after I read and reread this then slept on it all clicked and I use it as a guide to mix my jack's-dynagro personal recipe fert to cause a near perfect ion exchange cycle...UB is da man!!! PERIOD!!!

Namaste':eyesmoke:
"A state licensed personal grow...Thank you"
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Go to this link and READ IT OVER AND OVER!!! For reals!!! Once it clicks you will amaze yourself!!!
Thanx UB after I read and reread this then slept on it all clicked and I use it as a guide to mix my jack's-dynagro personal recipe fert to cause a near perfect ion exchange cycle...UB is da man!!! PERIOD!!!

Namaste':eyesmoke:
"A state licensed personal grow...Thank you"
Quite a gem of a site, eh?

Have fun,
UB
 

Grower Z

Member
Great thread Uncle Ben.

I thought you might like this from Maximum Yield magazine. If this article wasn't written about and for Cannabis growers, well than I will eat my hat.

Nutrient Ratios for Modern Crops
by Erik Biksa 2009-08-01

So, now back to the question: “Who has determined the nutrient values and ratios in your crop feeding program?” All right, well most folks are likely to say “the manufacturer.” Okay, so the manufacturer determined the nutrient ratios. That beckons the question of how they were able to determine what concentrations and ratios of plant nutrient elements to provide for your particular crop and at what times in the vegetative and bloom phases of growth. Well from there you can only guess, unless you have information that says otherwise.

[..]

Due to archaic field crop research crossed over into nutrient formulations intended for modern high producing indoor crops, there are some really huge misconceptions about what is optimal for nutrient ratios in the bloom phase for indoor crops grown in artificial environments. The simplest way to illustrate this fact is to look at one of the most popular types of products in the hydroponics industry, and that’s the “bloom booster.”

The majority of bloom boosters contain very high levels of phosphorous and moderate to lower amounts of potassium. They may also contain other macro and micro elements including magnesium, sulfur and iron. Growers begin to apply these types of products through the early bloom phase and late into flowering prior to “flushing” the crop before harvest. There seems to be a general consensus that the modern indoor containerized (or “systemized,” if you prefer) plant in the bloom phase needs abundant amounts of phosphorous relative to other nutrients. Well the truth is that they do not, because:

Phosphorous is highly available to containerized or systemized plants grown indoors relative to outdoor conditions where it is quickly leeched away from the root zone via mass flow.

When examining analytical reports charting the nutrient profile of a high yielding indoor crop at harvest (plant tissue analysis) it becomes clear that even in a variety of strains within the same plant type, that the plant requires nearly five times more each nitrogen and potassium relative to phosphorous.​

For example, if the plants elemental profile at harvest time was analyzed to reveal that healthy yields consisted primarily of nitrogen, potassium and calcium relative to phosphorous, why then are growers applying so much phosphorous (relative to other nutrient elements) in the bloom phase, and more importantly, what effect is this over abundance of phosphorous having on crops?

To answer the first part of the question, as indoor growers we are applying too much phosphorous because the recommendations for applications and formulations have been based on outdoor field agriculture practices, which simply don’t apply directly to indoor gardens. In nature the soil is very deep, and roots do not occupy the entire body of soil as they do in containers, beds or systems found with indoor gardens. Phosphorous leeches from the root zone in natural soils quickly, washing away from the contact zone with plant roots, as it drains with water further into the depths of the earth. To ensure a healthy supply of phosphorous, outdoor conventional field agricultural growers do a sort of “over-application” of phosphorous, because it has been determined that much of it will be quickly leeched away from the plant roots; what remains at any given time can be taken up by the crop. From this, we can learn that excessive “P” values in our N-P-Ks are not necessary for indoor growers, where phosphorous maintains a high level of contact within the root zone of plants grown in artificial soils and in containers, beds and systems commonly found with intensive indoor growing environments.​
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Good read. Contrary to popular belief, cannabis is a weed and should be treated no differently than a tomato or petunia. It is a flowering foliage plant. The question stated in my first post remains, "just how much P is required to support good flowering?" Or to say it another way, "how much of an overdose of P (or K) can there be where leaf chlorosis and/or necrosis is induced?"

For every new crop of noobs, I present a foreign concept - the importance of leaves. Here the grower is thinking only of bud production, which is driven by leaf health and mass, only to use popular forum practices that induce the loss of the very unit that produces what they're after! It's ironical. Check out Advanced going back a couple of pages. Here are these misguided folks with threads about plucking fan leaves off, "double your yields" threads.....all about exposing inner bud sites, yanking or moving fan leaves out of the way and other crap that makes no botanical sense. If you can link to my posts, I've explained the fallacy of these "popular" practices. For example, folks think that it's a lack of light that induces negligible bud production at the bottom of the plant when in reality it's apical dominance, a hormonal response. It doesn't matter whether it's an apple tree, tomato, or cannabis - the top part, the terminal leader(s), is gonna get most of the goodies.

I am now hitting an outdoor plant with high N foods, and still am getting some leaf yellowing. Most of that caused by my inconsistent watering. The poor plant is always in a state of wilting when I water it. It is flowering well however, having seen only a high N food, like the 35-5-10 I'm giving it now. Go figure....
 
Can I get some help??? I am one of those advanced nutrient fools. I am a new grower and i dont really understand everything yet, could someone please offer me some help as to what the plant needs during what weeks in the flowering cycle. i see how UB says during the first 2 weeks of flowering the plant needs high N, I guess what im really asking is at what weeks of flowering should i change to new nutes? because i dont really at what stage N,P, or K is important to the palnt.
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Can I get some help??? I am one of those advanced nutrient fools. I am a new grower and i dont really understand everything yet, could someone please offer me some help as to what the plant needs during what weeks in the flowering cycle. i see how UB says during the first 2 weeks of flowering the plant needs high N, I guess what im really asking is at what weeks of flowering should i change to new nutes? because i dont really at what stage N,P, or K is important to the palnt.
The plant simply needs good nutes and we as growers need to learn how to read the plants needs and feed it accordingly, that is the problem with rocket fuels and schedules, the schedule is based on their garden not yours and no two gardens are the same.
 

crud

Member
the stuff you recommend, Peters Pro Blossom Booster is water soluble. Does this mean i can use it in 5 gallon DWC buckets or an aero setup? soil only?
 

docsativa

Active Member
I use earthjuice grow and bloom all the way to harvest. during veg i feed my SB about 2 tsp a gal. As soon as i go 12/12 i feed EJ grow 1tbsp and EJ bloom 2tbsp up until about week four when i start to lower the N and start feeding molasses with the bloom until week six, when i give it another shot of N 2tbsp per gal with 1tbsp bloom not that much run off. on week 7 just bloom and molasses til harvest. I do this with coco and 1 gal water jugs. My harvest is lush and my buds have a sweet light skunky taste. I strongly beleive that N is highly important during flowering because the leaves feed the buds. i used to let my leaves yellow ALOT. now i just keeep it GREEN =)
 

lime73

Weed Modifier
So the greener @ 2 weeks left, start flushing, the better? I only have one yellow leaf at very bottom, this is good?
 

riddleme

Well-Known Member
I use earthjuice grow and bloom all the way to harvest. during veg i feed my SB about 2 tsp a gal. As soon as i go 12/12 i feed EJ grow 1tbsp and EJ bloom 2tbsp up until about week four when i start to lower the N and start feeding molasses with the bloom until week six, when i give it another shot of N 2tbsp per gal with 1tbsp bloom not that much run off. on week 7 just bloom and molasses til harvest. I do this with coco and 1 gal water jugs. My harvest is lush and my buds have a sweet light skunky taste. I strongly beleive that N is highly important during flowering because the leaves feed the buds. i used to let my leaves yellow ALOT. now i just keeep it GREEN =)
Good for you!

So the greener @ 2 weeks left, start flushing, the better? I only have one yellow leaf at very bottom, this is good?
Yeppers
 

HowzerMD

Well-Known Member
30-40 would have been a dream come true for me about 4 weeks ago. As soon as I would open my tent, I would get assaulted by the little fuckers. I put about 10 yellow gnat strips in my tent, and within 3 days they were completely covered. Now, Id be hard pressed to find a gnat buzzing around.

The gnats pretty much always show up in your soil, or compost that you might buy. I would suggest to always pretreat the soil you buy with a watering solution that contains the mosquito dunks, or to crush them up and add it to your soil and water it in.

I had made up two 18 gallon tubs of soil awhile back, and moistened it with some water from my reservoir that had mosquito dunks in it. Those tubs of soil never developed any gnat problems, yet my plants were infested with them took a few weeks to be rid of the gnats.

Now Im gnat free, and so happy. Getting gnats in your buds is quite annoying. I had that happen on my last grow. Not this time.
Thank you for your tid-bit on the dunks Dave. I've been interested in trying them out but haven't seen anyone talk about them and haven't bothered to ask either. I'll picking some up soon . I don't have an infestation, save the usual lone gnat from time to time. None-the-less having zero gnats all of the time would be even better. :D
 
UB, I have read many of your threads and if anyone on this forum can answer this question I know you can. I was wondering to myself how the scientific community can determine nutrient requirements for plants besides doing controlled grows. If stem, stalk and leaf samples are taken from a plant at different stages of its life, the samples dried and the salts extracted leaving nothing but plant tissue, can the percentage of each salt be used to determine the macro and micro values needed in a fertilizer at a given stage of growth? If not, there should be some kind of correlation though. Is there? Thanks UB, great threads, I love ‘em all! :weed:
 
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