Wow. This Whole Debt Ceiling Thing Is BS

[tet1953]

Obama and the democrats should simply thumb their collective nose at the republicans and tea partiers. Let them hem and haw all they want. They don't have a legal leg to stand on.

I have just heard about something that should change the whole debate. I have always felt that arguing whether to raise the ceiling is moot because we are talking about money that congress has already authorized..spent, really. So it is disengenuous at best to hold our obligations hostage to ideaology.

Well, guess what folks? Any notion of a debt ceiling is unconstitutional to begin with. Section 4 of the 14th amendment states, in part:

Section. 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.
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The rest of that section just talks about how public money can't be used against the U.S.

Once congress budgets and appropriates money, they're done unless they vote again to take it out of the budget. But to budget it and then later say we won't pay for it (i.e. have a debt "ceiling") is just not allowed under the constitution. If we owe it, we will pay it.

 

[Mr Neutron]

NOW the Constitution matters.

 

[mame]

NOW the Constitution matters.

Always has.

 

[NoDrama]

Debt has interest accruing at all times, you borrow 1 $Trillion and you need to pay $1 Trillion back PLUS interest. When the Gov sells a 30 year bond for a million, it costs taxpayers a couple of million after servicing the debt for that long and making all those interest payments. When Congress borrows the money they are only budgeting for the Principal. Its the interest and the overspending that are causing us to hit the debt ceiling. Perhaps until October we should discontinue all SS Checks, Disability Checks, pensions, military pay, federal employee pay etc etc etc..? The Republicans want so badly to defeat Obama they are willing to make people suffer to do it. Obama wants so badly to win again that he is willing to make people suffer to do it. Who will cave first? Politics. Instead of just making some big banks and corporations eat some losses they are willing to fuck us all.

 

[NoDrama]

Always has.

Not to a majority of the present politicians it doesn't.

 

[Dan Kone]

The debt ceiling gets raised as an uncontested procedural vote every time when we have republican president. It's only an issue when there is a democrat in office.

The republicans don't want the debt ceiling raised because they want the economy to fail so they can blame the democrats for it and regain power. It's nothing more than that.

 

[tet1953]

When and how did the debt ceiling come into being? Obviously it is a law passed by some congress. Thing is, it is not a valid law it would appear. I hope someone challenges it.

 

[UncleBuck]

The republicans don't want the debt ceiling raised because they want the economy to fail so they can blame the democrats for it and regain power. It's nothing more than that.

yes, i have noticed the republicans cutting off their noses to spite their faces many times.

even if the idea was theirs to begin with, once obama says it's a good idea, they shun it.

so funny to watch.

 

[Dan Kone]

When and how did the debt ceiling come into being? Obviously it is a law passed by some congress. Thing is, it is not a valid law it would appear. I hope someone challenges it.

It is a valid law, but it's been raise more than 70 times since the 1960's and no one ever makes an issue out of it until now. It's an invented issue designed by the republicans to get public support for crashing the economy so they can get a republican elected president.

 

[mame]

Not to a majority of the present politicians it doesn't.

Well, I'm sure depending on how often you agree or disagree with said politicians - and more importantly the SCOTUS - shapes that perception, doesn't it? You can say it's black and white but it's clearly not so... You've got the Abortion debate (life/choice), citizens united case and Arizona's campaign finance law (should money be considered free speech?), and you've got the Obamacare debate which BTW just had a federal appeals court rule in favor of it's constitutionality (so it's what, 3-1 atm as far as rulings go? The SCOTUS is likely to follow suit)...

 

[tet1953]

It is a valid law, but it's been raise more than 70 times since the 1960's and no one ever makes an issue out of it until now. It's an invented issue designed by the republicans to get public support for crashing the economy so they can get a republican elected president.

Has SCOTUS weighed in on its validity before? I just don't see how it jives with Section 4.

 

[Dan Kone]

Has SCOTUS weighed in on its validity before? I just don't see how it jives with Section 4.

Good question. I'm not sure actually. I thought it was challenged in the 60's but now I can't seem to find any evidence of that so I don't really know.

 

[redivider]

the treasury doesn't budget out the interest due on long term debt because it assumes that under ideal circumstances it is going to be able to call the treasury notes before their maturity because eventually there will be a budget surplus.

truth is interest on treasury securities is very low because US treasury securities are considered extremely safe investments.

we don't have a debt problem. the 'federal deficit' is expressed as a percentage of GDP for a reason. it isn't like credit card debt, where the interest you owe can become part of the principal and earn additional interest in a ever expanding exponential curve of death.

it doesn't work that way....... the US pays a constant interest rate which hovers below 10%, what sometimes happens is that the US will take 800,000 dollars for a 1,000,000 dollar treasury security package if the rate of return of the investor is higher than the interest rate on the face of the bond, which is a fairly regular occurrence since treasury securities pay low interest, because they are considered safe investments.....

if you think i'm going to let ppl here juts blabber on about how even families learn to deal with their debt, well, no. the federal deficit works differently.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

The debt ceiling gets raised as an uncontested procedural vote every time when we have republican president. It's only an issue when there is a democrat in office.

The republicans don't want the debt ceiling raised because they want the economy to fail so they can blame the democrats for it and regain power. It's nothing more than that.

Hmmm.

Sherman, set the Way-Back Machine for 2006.

The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.

So there is Senator Obama talking about leadership failure, reckless fiscal policies, etc., in relation to raising the debt ceiling.

What do you know, he voted AGAINST it.

But that was then.

NOW he knows what he's talking about.

 

[redivider]

way back in 2006.

way back when the economy was not in a recession.

way back when the only reason the republicans wanted to raise the debt ceiling was because they wanted some way to pay for tax cuts for the wealthiest americans.

barack obama called it what it was. lack of leadership. it was irresponsible to pay for tax cuts by borrowing money when times were good, and it's still irresponsible now. that's why we need to end tax cuts for the people who can afford to pay taxes.

thank you for that example.

 

[Carne Seca]

NOW the Constitution matters.

I think that's our line.

 

[londonfog]

Thats why the Repukes are the Repukes...!!!!

 

[Dan Kone]

Hmmm.

Sherman, set the Way-Back Machine for 2006.

So there is Senator Obama talking about leadership failure, reckless fiscal policies, etc., in relation to raising the debt ceiling.

What do you know, he voted AGAINST it.

But that was then.

NOW he knows what he's talking about.

It's one thing for a senator to symbolically vote against it. It's another thing entirely for a political party to actually hold it up for the purpose of weakening our economy. That has never been done, and for good reason. It was not a serious issue in 2006 nor has it ever been until the republicans decided it was a good way to sink the economy so it will be easier to elect a republican.

 

[Dan Kone]

way back in 2006.

way back when the economy was not in a recession.

way back when the only reason the republicans wanted to raise the debt ceiling was because they wanted some way to pay for tax cuts for the wealthiest americans.

barack obama called it what it was. lack of leadership. it was irresponsible to pay for tax cuts by borrowing money when times were good, and it's still irresponsible now. that's why we need to end tax cuts for the people who can afford to pay taxes.

thank you for that example.

There is also a pretty big difference between one senator voting against it and the entire party doing so.

 

[DelSlow]

What will happen if they don't raise the debt ceiling? Will society collapse into a living nightmare? Or will I still be able to look at porn?