What if Christianity Was True?

[tyler.durden]

i love nova!! ill def watch it all right now actually im bored lol...im well versed in the big bang theory, the something without nothing clause, and many other theories such as those in scientology and after hearing everything i have so far from both sides i feel like life didnt come by chance through evolution, im honestly more apt to say we were made by aliens or even our whole universe was manufactured as an experiment or testing grounds before i truly feel we just fell into place by the grace of the universe that just came into existence for no absolute reason and by no absolute intervention..also the near proof of the multi-verse shows that every option happens every single thing is fact, just not here and at this time, which further points to what i say about us just being machines why is it that once we compute sometihng in our brain other realities disappear...im rambling i love talking about this stuff and i dont claim to know it all or be right in anything im saying because its all still open to interpretation!! but hey my thoughts on this subject change with the wind and thats the good thing i will never, unless i know the full truth, say hey we were SURELY created on purpose or no thats not possible because it just doesnt make sense...but for now im leaning on the side of a creator, ya we have flaws but im not saying the creator is a god maybe just another low life form as ourselves with a little more understanding and power..hey maybe were a grain on an animals back i dont know, thats what intrigues me though i truly dont know...check out the vid i posted a page or two back that is the latest thing that has me saying hmmm makes more sense that we were created somehow by something instead of pure evolution...

also i dont disbelieve certain truths of evolution...thats why this all gets confusing i dont deny any of these theories i just choose to meld them together when it seems logical...sure i believe monkeys evolved to humans but do i believe single cell organisms evolved so far as to become monkeys..i just dont know if i can believe that happened without intervention and anyway where did the first cell come from then!!??? i wish i had alllllll the answers lol

Well, it's great that you're searching and attempting to think critically and use logic. You raise some great questions that we just don't yet have the answers to, but some possibilities are certainly more probable than others. I feel it's best to go to where the most credible evidence leads, as opposed to choose an idea or explanation simply because I like the sound of it. Remember, on your search for answers, Occam's Razor is your friend I'd be interested on your thought process after you watch the Nova series, and I'll try to find the one you posted...

 

[mindphuk]

ya....i know i said the same thing im agreeing with him lol...then i told you why i agree...and also yes alot of theories such as darwins basically says hey our cells were arranged in the perfect way to create this intelligent life by chance through evolution, to say the opposite would be to propose a "god"....this video is my ultimate response to you http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=FJ0J0JNU ...i guess the guy in my video and the guy who wrote your page link need to get together and decide if monkeys can write shakespeare lol

Yes, I understand you echoed his comments but you did so in an apparent reply to my post asking for more detail why he (and you) think that it is impossible for us to be the non-designed product of nature. All you did was say "he's right", i.e. I'm wrong. You did not give a clear explanation as to 'why' except that you cannot comprehend it, which is why it is an argument from incredulity. You said to look at science but science is saying the opposite of what you are so you will have to be much much more specific. Sorry, I will not accept a video of Strobel's meanderings as your explanation. He is a well-known creationist that creates way too many straw men when he 'explains' the science.

You point to life being so complex yet all you seem to be aware of is modern, extant life. Do you not have the ability to imagine the early forms of life and proto-life that existed for a long time before we get to even the most primitive fossilized life? Are you not able to imagine simple organic molecules that are able to replicate and propagate? Inorganic molecules are able to do that. We call them crystals. There are inorganic clays that act this way too. The first 'life' was probably not much more than what we see in a non-enveloped virus. Maybe something like prions are the precursors to modern life. The point is, to introduce something totally from left field, like an intelligence behind it all, without any evidence except your lack of imagination, is fallacious reasoning. That's why I take issue with people that tell me to look at science to see why a natural explanation for life is impossible. I look at science and see not only possibilities but probability.

 

[mindphuk]

i love nova!! ill def watch it all right now actually im bored lol...im well versed in the big bang theory, the something without nothing clause, and many other theories such as those in scientology and after hearing everything i have so far from both sides i feel like life didnt come by chance through evolution, im honestly more apt to say we were made by aliens or even our whole universe was manufactured as an experiment or testing grounds before i truly feel we just fell into place by the grace of the universe that just came into existence for no absolute reason and by no absolute intervention..also the near proof of the multi-verse shows that every option happens every single thing is fact, just not here and at this time, which further points to what i say about us just being machines why is it that once we compute sometihng in our brain other realities disappear...im rambling i love talking about this stuff and i dont claim to know it all or be right in anything im saying because its all still open to interpretation!! but hey my thoughts on this subject change with the wind and thats the good thing i will never, unless i know the full truth, say hey we were SURELY created on purpose or no thats not possible because it just doesnt make sense...but for now im leaning on the side of a creator, ya we have flaws but im not saying the creator is a god maybe just another low life form as ourselves with a little more understanding and power..hey maybe were a grain on an animals back i dont know, thats what intrigues me though i truly dont know...check out the vid i posted a page or two back that is the latest thing that has me saying hmmm makes more sense that we were created somehow by something instead of pure evolution...

If we were created by other intelligent beings that are not gods. That doesn't really give us an answer the question, 'how did life begin?' You cannot use existing life to explain the existence of life without invoking infinite regress. Those intelligent beings themselves must have got here somehow and the most likely answer seems to be some form of Darwinian selection. We have no other explanation as to how such complexity can come about.

 

[kermit2692]

i understand but i was never seeking to answer how did life begin with the statement i made about the possibility of humans beginning from other intelligent life, that was simply a statement of possibility on human existence alone..or earthly existence, which can surely be explained by other intelligent beings...so you believe in god then since you say existence of life could not have come from other life(which is obvious)?? i think the possibility of life originating from god is less likely than the possibility of humans just not being in the highest plane of existence we may or may not be the top dogs here in our universe but somewhere above our comprehension i still think we were created....so if everything i say is wrong then lets hear what you think, its much harder to be the guy trying to explain life than the guy shooting the ideas down, we can all do that quite well.

 

[kermit2692]

Well, it's great that you're searching and attempting to think critically and use logic. You raise some great questions that we just don't yet have the answers to, but some possibilities are certainly more probable than others. I feel it's best to go to where the most credible evidence leads, as opposed to choose an idea or explanation simply because I like the sound of it. Remember, on your search for answers, Occam's Razor is your friend I'd be interested on your thought process after you watch the Nova series, and I'll try to find the one you posted...

watched part one so far...and i simply dont disagree with any of it but its really only touching on evolution after apes exist already and the really interesting part of the question, were we created or did we evolve, comes way before that when the earth may have been just able to support amino acids. the liklihood of amino acids forming into single celled oranisms on their own is just imensely small. also the video led me to question if all of the "links" between apes and humans have died off why do we still have apes!?!...id love to sit down with neil himself and hear his views and have him answer some of the questions i bring up...just saw the big bang theory today that he cameoed in oddly enough lol ...id also love to hear from both of you what you guys think the truth is or your best guess at interpreting the existence of life as we know it from before mammals.

 

[tyler.durden]

watched part one so far...and i simply dont disagree with any of it but its really only touching on evolution after apes exist already and the really interesting part of the question, were we created or did we evolve, comes way before that when the earth may have been just able to support amino acids. the liklihood of amino acids forming into single celled oranisms on their own is just imensely small. also the video led me to question if all of the "links" between apes and humans have died off why do we still have apes!?!...id love to sit down with neil himself and hear his views and have him answer some of the questions i bring up...just saw the big bang theory today that he cameoed in oddly enough lol ...id also love to hear from both of you what you guys think the truth is or your best guess at interpreting the existence of life as we know it from before mammals.

I actually saw Neil on BBT The likelihood of chemistry becoming biology (chemicals into life) may be extremely small, in fact it is so small that the only life we've found as far as we can detect (which is pretty fuckin' far) is only on this planet. But think of it this way, no matter how small it may be it happened here because we are discussing it. We are close to creating life in the lab, either by discovering the exact organic recipe, or by creating synthetic DNA and synthetic 'live' cells (we have actually accomplished the items in red). The next episodes of Becoming Human get into other humanoid forms (they discern up to five types existed simultaneously!) and the 'missing links' of evolution. By the way, we are great apes. As you get further into evolutionary theory, many of your questions will be answered. Some great books are Climbing Mount Improbable and The Ancestor's Tale, both by Richard Dawkins. He has an amazing ability to put complex biological theories into layman's terms. I think your last question is asking how life began in the first place, and the short answer is it seems that chemistry coming together in specific ways along with energy (solar, heat and pressure from the ocean) as a catalyst somehow sparked the genesis of the first self-replicating molecule. Evolution by natural selection gives all the explanatory power we need from that point. Another thing to keep in mind is that none of this happens by 'chance', layman often think there are two options: an intelligent creator or random chance. Aside from random mutations in DNA/RNA, evolution is guided and shaped by a very specific (albeit a blind) force , that is natural selection. It is the very opposite of random chance. But why am I talking about this? Mindphuk is the heavy biology and evolutionary expert on this forum, he can better explain all of this if we're lucky...

 

[kermit2692]

well he sure is good at telling me how wrong i am ....lol im just giving shit i welcome anyone who tells me im wrong about anything because id rather be corrected than ignorant..obviously you guys have found yourselves on another thread with the same premise if you know he possesses knowledge of this type of stuff so id love to hear your views as well mindphuck!...as i said i dont claim to be a molecular phycisist lol sometimes paying attention to so much of this type of stuff leaves me muddling it all together and forgetting the strong points...also just reread part of your post above mindphuck..you say crystals are inorganic and replicate but dont crystals form from slowly dripping and drying hcl?? i think im going to take some physics and advanced biology classes, im still young enough to spend time in college learning something i care about instead of trying to get a degree that wont get me a good job in this economy anyway

 

[mindphuk]

well he sure is good at telling me how wrong i am ....lol im just giving shit i welcome anyone who tells me im wrong about anything because id rather be corrected than ignorant..obviously you guys have found yourselves on another thread with the same premise if you know he possesses knowledge of this type of stuff so id love to hear your views as well mindphuck!...as i said i dont claim to be a molecular phycisist lol sometimes paying attention to so much of this type of stuff leaves me muddling it all together and forgetting the strong points...also just reread part of your post above mindphuck..you say crystals are inorganic and replicate but dont crystals form from slowly dripping and drying hcl?? i think im going to take some physics and advanced biology classes, im still young enough to spend time in college learning something i care about instead of trying to get a degree that wont get me a good job in this economy anyway

Please point to the post where I said you were wrong. In fact, the most I said is you are using a fallacious reasoning, i.e. argument from incredulity.
I have admitted I have no idea how life started but you seem sure it was created somehow. You have not however, explained how and why you think that way except that you can't imagine the natural process. Then you go on to explain about how it could have been aliens, but when I point out that doesn't really 'explain' anything about how life really got started, which IS what we are talking about, you sidestep it by saying, "i was never seeking to answer how did life begin with the statement i made about the possibility of humans beginning from other intelligent life "
Then what was the point of bringing that up in a conversation about the question of how life began. If it was meaningless, then it was a red herring and maybe would have been better discussed in another context.

So basically, I can't say whether you are right or wrong about your beliefs because you really haven't detailed them except to repeat that you think we were created, without ever once giving a an actual defense of that belief, even when pressed for one.

 

[tyler.durden]

I was so baked that I didn't even see him post a while back I'm going to bed, talk tomorrow...

 

[mindphuk]

mindphuck!...as i said i dont claim to be a molecular phycisist lol sometimes paying attention to so much of this type of stuff leaves me muddling it all together and forgetting the strong points...also just reread part of your post above mindphuck..you say crystals are inorganic and replicate but dont crystals form from slowly dripping and drying hcl??

Yes, I do believe with some more science background you might eliminate this incredulity that appears to weigh so heavily in your thinking. You would find that there is nothing magical about organic chemistry except that carbon is part of the molecule. Crystals form from many different types of molecules. Crystals can break off and start a new structure, virtually identical to the 'parent' structure, just like the immobile organic life in a coral reef. All I am trying to point out is that even simple inorganic compounds can replicate and propagate. Once you accept that, it shouldn't be hard to imagine organic molecules replicating and propagating in a very chemical, crystal-like fashion. And once you can accept this premise, it becomes easier to see how certain 'mistakes' in exact replication can make for some molecular structures to be better able to survive certain changes in environment, even something as simply as changes in temperature or salinity of the water it formed in.

 

[Heisenberg]

My skeptey sense woke me out of bed telling me someone on the internet was denying evolution. Glad to see it's already being handled.

 

[Beefbisquit]

So say you died tomorrow and you're instantly transported to a guy with a clipboard standing next to some pearly gates... He tells you the whole story in the Christian Bible is true, every word is of God.

What happens to you, according to Christianity, how do you explain your actions up until this point in your life, and how do you feel about finding all of this out definitively, at last?

"I'm screwed and it's your fault for not devising a better method of spreading your word. Why does it seem so unbelievable? Why didn't you just show everyone on the entire world you existed? Why did you let us kill each other for so long? Why did you only start to really help us about 2000 years ago? So many questions..."

 

[eye exaggerate]

My skeptey sense woke me out of bed telling me someone on the internet was denying evolution. Glad to see it's already being handled.

Allo, Heis. What if evolution was the map for matter (mother)? And then, that's it. She evolves and we follow suit (pattern)? I have a good hunch that this is true. So, would you say that either you or I have a choice in what we believe given evolution? Wouldn't we all just be 'where we're at' in our own evolution and have zip to debate?

Also, do you think mind evolves along with matter? Or does it have its own 'language for surveying one's environment' that is fully consistent with (I hate using this word) reality?.

 

[mindphuk]

Allo, Heis. What if evolution was the map for matter (mother)? And then, that's it. She evolves and we follow suit (pattern)? I have a good hunch that this is true. So, would you say that either you or I have a choice in what we believe given evolution? Wouldn't we all just be 'where we're at' in our own evolution and have zip to debate?

Also, do you think mind evolves along with matter? Or does it have its own 'language for surveying one's environment' that is fully consistent with (I hate using this word) reality?.

Heis, I look forward to your reply. Not so much an answer but to explain to me what Eye is actually asking.

Seriously Eye, I read your posts and understand what each word means but when taken together, I just can't seem to figure out what you are saying.

 

[Heisenberg]

Allo, Heis. What if evolution was the map for matter (mother)? And then, that's it. She evolves and we follow suit (pattern)? I have a good hunch that this is true. So, would you say that either you or I have a choice in what we believe given evolution? Wouldn't we all just be 'where we're at' in our own evolution and have zip to debate?

Also, do you think mind evolves along with matter? Or does it have its own 'language for surveying one's environment' that is fully consistent with (I hate using this word) reality?.

I believe I agree with the first part. Evolution, as a theory, does not concern itself with the author. We have no clear evidence of an author, so you and I both have a fair degree of liberty in our speculation as to what evolution implies.

I think there is much to debate inside of evolutionary theory, as there is so much we don't understand. However, denialism is different from debate.

As for mind evolving with matter, I believe the mind is matter, so I suppose I agree with that as well. The mind has evolved to matter more.

 

[eye exaggerate]

Heis, I look forward to your reply. Not so much an answer but to explain to me what Eye is actually asking.

Seriously Eye, I read your posts and understand what each word means but when taken together, I just can't seem to figure out what you are saying.

1 - is evolution the way that nature functions?

2 - is it only relevant to matter?

3 - does mind evolve the same way that matter does?


...sheeesh

 

[eye exaggerate]

The mind has evolved to matter more.

...nice!

And, you deciphered the gedeye mind trick that wasn't there in the first place

 

[Heisenberg]

Heis, I look forward to your reply. Not so much an answer but to explain to me what Eye is actually asking.

Seriously Eye, I read your posts and understand what each word means but when taken together, I just can't seem to figure out what you are saying.

Lol, I dunno why but I don't have as hard a time understanding Eye as everyone else seems to, although there are times when it takes a minute. Sorta like looking at a 2 dimensional drawing of a cube, if you stare at it the definition presents itself.

 

[kermit2692]

"So many questions..."

that hits the nail on the head..the truth is not one of us knows if we are right here.....im gonna say what i did on page one do good and make the world a better place for the people around you and the world will be a better place for you!!! now im gonna go study so i can come back at u guys with some serious mindphuck ( ) kinda shit

 

[mindphuk]

1 - is evolution the way that nature functions?

2 - is it only relevant to matter?

3 - does mind evolve the same way that matter does?


...sheeesh

I got confused with the matter/mother map, comment and this, "Wouldn't we all just be 'where we're at' in our own evolution"


I don't mean to make you exasperated. Just wanting clarification before I answer something you didn't ask.