Led Users Unite!

[Perro Negro]

I added the CFLs recently because of some reading I did through various sites and forums and some observation that the plants weren't thriving as well as expected. The extra white light did make a difference almost immediately. I know some would say that this is some flaw with LED as a whole, but I think it just speaks to the cheap LEDs that I have. The Blackstar seems to be much better for sure, but still not a current generation panel with full spectrum light or anything.

Couldn't agree more that it is not a flaw with LED but a lack of power and spectrum. Saying that would be the same as growing with a 250 watt bulb and saying it is an inherent flaw of HID to need more light or not get a good yield. You need power to flower and a solid spectrum will improve and yield and even more so it will improve quality.

Currently they are beginning their 4th week into flower. One thing I have noticed from the previous grows is that under the LEDs they seem to take a week or two longer than the strain specs typically state. It seems to me - again, I am a total newb - that the trichomes don't seem to go amber and degrade quite as quick as you would expect from say an 8 week flowering plant. Just finished growing Kandy Kush and Blueberry and both of them took a good week past their advertised finishing period.

No, we have seen a reduction in time by one to two weeks when using quality LED lights but based on experimentation I can tell you that the nutrients will also effect the flowering duration. I would assume in your case it is the lack of high power and quality spectrum. Not to say your plants don't look good, look like some happy girls.

 

[Senseimilla]

Do LEDS really work? there is a supply shop down the street from my house that wont carry LEDs and say they dont work. Id really like to use them but im affraid to spend the cash in fear of them not producing properly. This will be my first grow and ive seen some boxes on line with LED set ups in them and am interested in this just scared of waisting all that cash.

Please help...

Yes they do. Do not be concerned by anybody who says 'LEDs don't work', 'LEDs can only produce airy buds' or 'You're only going to get half the weight with LEDs' -- anyone who says any combo of those 3 things does not know SHIT about LEDs and is either a) ignorant or b) a skeptic who can't be convinced no matter what proof you show them. I'm going BACK to all LED after going to HPS+LED because I got better results with JUST LEDs. I have had my biggest yields ever with LEDs. I have not seen any advantage to HPS other than the buds may be a BIT more compact and dense (but not heavier overall)... and i'm not even sure on that. I'm going back to the method that had me averaging 4oz/plant... blackstar LEDs, airpots and super soil. To be fair I'm gonna be doing some comparisons, but I expect LEDs to win hands down.

Cons, biggest obviously expense. A lot of people get too small of lights because of price and then are surprised their grow didn't deliver 600w or 1000w hps results from a 180-240w light Another con some people don't like is 'airier' buds -- i don't really believe this -- I think this is more a combination of strain and amount of lighting/bandwidth/brand. I have not had any issues on density with mine.

Pros - less electricity. less heat (in an average set up - not saying with a kick ass ventilation system you can't keep an hps cool, but it still requires the vent setup where LED does not unless you put a lot in). less watering. (maybe) less risk of fire.

My philosophy is MANY smaller fixtures spread out for coverage. Keep'em down on the buds as close as you can without bleaching. Make sure they always have optimal nutrition (for me super soil seems to work best at providing a constant supply of the nutes the plant needs in the right amounts).

 

[Perro Negro]

Yes they do. Do not be concerned by anybody who says 'LEDs don't work', 'LEDs can only produce airy buds' or 'You're only going to get half the weight with LEDs' -- anyone who says any combo of those 3 things does not know SHIT about LEDs and is either a) ignorant or b) a skeptic who can't be convinced no matter what proof you show them. I'm going BACK to all LED after going to HPS+LED because I got better results with JUST LEDs. I have had my biggest yields ever with LEDs. I have not seen any advantage to HPS other than the buds may be a BIT more compact and dense (but not heavier overall)... and i'm not even sure on that. I'm going back to the method that had me averaging 4oz/plant... blackstar LEDs, airpots and super soil. To be fair I'm gonna be doing some comparisons, but I expect LEDs to win hands down.

Couldn't agree more, the quality and density is something you cannot explain.

My philosophy is MANY smaller fixtures spread out for coverage. Keep'em down on the buds as close as you can without bleaching. Make sure they always have optimal nutrition (for me super soil seems to work best at providing a constant supply of the nutes the plant needs in the right amounts).

Spreading out light has become more important as many LED manufacturers are using lenses that "increase" the light intensity. This is utter marketing bullshit since you cannot create light from a lens, only focus it to a smaller area to make it more intense, but only in the new smaller area or footprint.

Senseimilla, how close can you get your LEDs without bleaching?

 

[Senseimilla]

5" but sometimes they will bleach at that range... 8-12" is a fairly safe range. I keep'em higher in veg as they don't need the intensity and I want the coverage. I like about 1 240w per 2ft2. It depends on the plant though some will take 5" no problems some want 8-12" some want higher or they show stress signs. But 5-8" was where I had the best results as far as producing a lot of budsites and dense buds. 5" is the range I saw HPS-like leaf bleaching, but i also had plants that grew up to touch the light no problems.... like I said seems very much strain dependent. I have had plants that needed 2' or they would show Mg-Ca deficiency symptoms. I also believe it depends what kind of nutrients your plant is getting if it gets all it needs it's better able to counter the lights being close... not getting the nutrients it needs is a recipe for leaf problems... and with the lights down on them at 5-8", they need a lot of nutes That's why I think super soil works really well combined with LEDs... less potential for nutrition issues as long as you keep them from drying out.

 

[duudical]

No, we have seen a reduction in time by one to two weeks when using quality LED lights but based on experimentation I can tell you that the nutrients will also effect the flowering duration. I would assume in your case it is the lack of high power and quality spectrum. Not to say your plants don't look good, look like some happy girls.

Thanks bro. Good info! Like I said, I totally don't have the experience to even compare what I have seen to anything else. I am very interested in upping the wattage, providing the right spectrum and getting some better results. I am very interested in the 405w Blackstar Chrome FSF. Have you heard anything regarding its performance?

 

[Perro Negro]

5" but sometimes they will bleach at that range... 8-12" is a fairly safe range. I keep'em higher in veg as they don't need the intensity and I want the coverage. I like about 1 240w per 2ft2. It depends on the plant though some will take 5" no problems some want 8-12" some want higher or they show stress signs. But 5-8" was where I had the best results as far as producing a lot of budsites and dense buds. 5" is the range I saw HPS-like leaf bleaching, but i also had plants that grew up to touch the light no problems.... like I said seems very much strain dependent. I have had plants that needed 2' or they would show Mg-Ca deficiency symptoms. I also believe it depends what kind of nutrients your plant is getting if it gets all it needs it's better able to counter the lights being close... not getting the nutrients it needs is a recipe for leaf problems... and with the lights down on them at 5-8", they need a lot of nutes That's why I think super soil works really well combined with LEDs... less potential for nutrition issues as long as you keep them from drying out.

We find that our LEDs can't get much closer than 18"-20" but as you point out there is definitely variability based on different genetics. We don't see any burning either but we do see the bleaching where the tips turn white. Haven't been able to find a completely solid reason for this. We hypothesize at this point that it is a destruction of the chloroplasts from over stimulation. I never saw that when using HID since things generally burned before you got close enough to bleach them. Very interesting though that you can get so much closer. Wonder if it the different spectrum or the light intensity?

 

[Senseimilla]

Don't know but that's my guess on why there's bleaching when too close sometimes as well. 18-24" is a good safe zone have definitely had plants that had to be higher... mostly the ones without much or any super soil... i think there is a nutritional component to it, ie over stimulation combined with lack of the right nutrients to handle that stimulation. if the nutes aren't there it's rapid problems in the leaves... if they are it's fantastic bud growth I have seen the same kind of bleaching with HIDs if you have an air cooled glass hood you can definitely get close enough to bleach the leaves in the exact same way without burning them with heat. Better growth and fewer issues in my last grow correlated well with the amount of super soil in each pot... the ones with the most had huge buds and almost no problems with the LEDs... the ones that had no super soil there was always some kind of issue... the ones with some but not as much as the others had minor symptoms but nothing serious. Then again it was just one grow could be coincidence... but going to find out next flower

 

[Perro Negro]

Thanks bro. Good info! Like I said, I totally don't have the experience to even compare what I have seen to anything else. I am very interested in upping the wattage, providing the right spectrum and getting some better results. I am very interested in the 405w Blackstar Chrome FSF. Have you heard anything regarding its performance?

For full disclosure, I work at Black Dog LED (notice my username ) and as such I will not bash anyone's product since that is not the purpose of these forums and I am here to help answer questions about LEDs and growing with them. There is so much bad information out there and we have been doing this for over three years and our experience growing with and using LEDs in general can be a resource for someone using any LEDs or considering them.

I have tested some Blackstar models and talked to those using them but never grown with them. We had a customer walk into our office with a Blackstar (not that particular model) and he had some questions. We ran a full test with it using our spectroradiometer and answered his questions.

I am not positive which model you are referring to. Are referring to the EFSF 12 2013? If so it claims 430-540 watts so not sure how you are getting the 405 but the range is a bit odd since you can easily get a wattage using a kill-a-watt which costs about $30 at home depot. Also, those newer ones are only listed as three bands which we just do not believe is optimal based on all of our research and existing research on plant biology. The cost per watt, which I believe is currently the best place to begin when comparing one light to another, is in line with industry standards.

The one thing that gives me real pause on this particular light is the footprint claim of 7' x 4' which is 28 sq. ft. (they do not give a veg and flower footprint) If we can agree a 1000w HID can flower a 4' x 4' area which is 16 sq. ft. they are implying that their light is capable of lighting a 75% larger area with less than half the power, so an implied efficiency increase of of something like 150%+. This is the type of marketing claim that gives LED a bad name since I can guarantee LED is not able to do this with the technology we have available today. That being said you may be very happy with the light and I would request you post your results in the forums if you get the light and grow with it.

 

[Perro Negro]

Don't know but that's my guess on why there's bleaching when too close sometimes as well. 18-24" is a good safe zone have definitely had plants that had to be higher... mostly the ones without much or any super soil... i think there is a nutritional component to it, ie over stimulation combined with lack of the right nutrients to handle that stimulation. if the nutes aren't there it's rapid problems in the leaves... if they are it's fantastic bud growth I have seen the same kind of bleaching with HIDs if you have an air cooled glass hood you can definitely get close enough to bleach the leaves in the exact same way without burning them with heat. Better growth and fewer issues in my last grow correlated well with the amount of super soil in each pot... the ones with the most had huge buds and almost no problems with the LEDs... the ones that had no super soil there was always some kind of issue... the ones with some but not as much as the others had minor symptoms but nothing serious. Then again it was just one grow could be coincidence... but going to find out next flower

Well please keep us posted. If you find super soil reduces or eliminates bleaching while allowing you to keep the LEDs closer I for one would like to know more.

 

[Senseimilla]

Well please keep us posted. If you find super soil reduces or eliminates bleaching while allowing you to keep the LEDs closer I for one would like to know more.

We'll find out at the end of January after this baby is done flowering. Just transplanted her into 5 gallon/supersoil today, watered in with superthrive... will put her into flower sometime between this weekend and next. Plant is 16" tall, 32" wide.

 

[Gettin By747]

Hi im new to the forum..i own 3 SG1250 and was wondering if any one else is using these lights..im currenty going to put 3 AK 47's under three sg1250 to see what results i get from them.

 

[David the Gnome]

That should be plenty of power. Post some pics if you can. I would love to see the size of your plants.

 

[Gettin By747]

That should be plenty of power. Post some pics if you can. I would love to see the size of your plants.

Change of plans.. im going to do 6 in a waterfarm set up..with 3 sg1250..i hope to pull close to 200 grams a tree... ill keep posting.

 

[Damaen]

well most of what i need has turned up, germinating now, will be starting journal when they get into soil

 

[Perro Negro]

We'll find out at the end of January after this baby is done flowering. Just transplanted her into 5 gallon/supersoil today, watered in with superthrive... will put her into flower sometime between this weekend and next. Plant is 16" tall, 32" wide.

Wanted to circle back and let you I remembered some research regarding how much light plants can handle. The researcher was really working on spectrum knowledge, which is why I was reading it, but he also tested for 3 variables with regard to photosynthetic response. I recall he demonstrated a strong positive correlation between CO2 levels and ability to photosynthesize.

Wanted to make sure you were aware of this research for your test.

 

[Senseimilla]

Thanks... yeah last grow I had one of those co2 bags in the cab with the plants... this round i do too but it's a much bigger room... i'm probably going to get each separate test grow their own bag so it's even not sure how much difference those make, but... yeah all the bigger growers swear by co2... i just don't want to deal with the hassle or expense of setting up tanks for that.

 

[Perro Negro]

Thanks... yeah last grow I had one of those co2 bags in the cab with the plants... this round i do too but it's a much bigger room... i'm probably going to get each separate test grow their own bag so it's even not sure how much difference those make, but... yeah all the bigger growers swear by co2... i just don't want to deal with the hassle or expense of setting up tanks for that.

Wanted to make sure you were aware that it could SIGNIFICANTLY effect your experiment with regard to ability of plant to handle intense light. CO2 tanks aren't bad but getting a good sensor is very costly, once you eat that cost it isn't bad. That being said, depending on where you are the bags may be great. Here in Boulder CO with the high altitude CO2 tanks are the way to go

 

[cheguevara]

High all! new to the forum so I wanted to say hello but I also have a few questions and it seems I found exactly what I wanted when I found this thread. I'm searching for LED's for an 8x4 tent hydroponic SOG used just for flowering purposes and just wanted some opinions from people like me not from people trying to just sell me a product. What would you guys choose? I was close to getting some fixtures from eshine systems - extreme flower series(someone recommended them on a different forum). I don't know if it's ok for me to post links here...that would be the easiest way to show you what I had in mind. Still not sure how many watts would cover that area and how many wavelengths the spectrum should have. I was gonna go for 3x300w(epistar and bridgelux 3wled's, power consumption of 248W)11 band wavelenghts(concentrating mostly on the 660nm led's). is it better to get 1,2 more powerful(600-800w)units or 3 moderate ones? You guys really seem to know what you're talking about and I would especially appreciate Perro Negro's opinion on this. Price is also an issue...the ones I was interested in would have been somewhere around 350$/piece...your help will be greatly appreciated!

 

[jungleboy1]

. Thermoplastic Circuitry board material

· 225 LEDs = 165 Red + 60 Blue Mix

· LED Bulb Diameter: 5mm do you think four of these would be good to supliment my 600w hps

· Blue light wavelength:460-465 nm

· Red light wavelength: 650-655 nm

· LED Bulbs Power: Power: 13.8W

· Voltage: 240V AC

· Australia 3-pin plug

· Lumen(Red/Blue): Red - 7.2Lux x 165Bulbs + 4.5Lux x 60Bulbs

· Recommended Coverage: 45cm x 45cm

· Recommended Height: 0.3-1.5m

· No ballast needed, simply plug it in and ready to play

· Australian C-tick approval N3499, and CE, UL and RoHS

· Size: 31.5cm x 31.5cm x 3.8cm

 

[cifer]

and what u want to groe with that? roses from amsterdam? no way :/...