Constructing a Homebrew Atomix Air-Atomized Aeroponic System

[jamesvagabond]

No experience with AA or HPA (long time learner/planner/plotter) but to the guy wanting to run organics through his pipes and sprayers, that I do have much experience with. even when filtering my 50 gal tea brewer and sending it out to my field through pvc and pencil lead-sized-opening sprayers, the bio film builds up in the lines and will eventually clog everything. that was outdoors. indoors in my space aged low pressure aero pods I made the mistake of adding some organic additive (i forget the name) that did the exact same thing. I mean bio film clogged everything from the sprayers to the filters nearly killed all my pumps. bottom line, aero in my experience and anything being ran through a sprayer must be sterile and filtered or pure water and cleaned between runs. especially with those tiny opening sprayers used in true high pressure aero or aaa .

I wonder if I can hand feed the microbe rich stuff like the worm tea and inoculants? Then run a weekly h202 cycle in to keep biofilm at bay. With a drain to waste system I would imagine that there is less of a risk of algal growth or other film. Especially if my chambers are light-proof and chilled. But again, only theory makes me weary.

 

[LivingCanvas]

I have to agree with local - Trying to run organics in misting/some drip systems
leads to clogs and headaches. You could run H202, but that will likely kill any beneficial
organisms that are meant to benefit via use of organics. If any bio nutes/teas get into
your pumps/clog the filters, especially with HP/AA aero, you're just asking for clogs and
waking up to dead plants.

TB: I read the Atomix had nozzles with a "cleaning needle" - Have you seen any other
nozzles with that type of feature?

 

[jamesvagabond]

I have to agree with local - Trying to run organics in misting/some drip systems
leads to clogs and headaches. You could run H202, but that will likely kill any beneficial
organisms that are meant to benefit via use of organics. If any bio nutes/teas get into
your pumps/clog the filters, especially with HP/AA aero, you're just asking for clogs and
waking up to dead plants.

TB: I read the Atomix had nozzles with a "cleaning needle" - Have you seen any other
nozzles with that type of feature?

Yes, spray systems makes them but the ARE NOT cheap. slap an extra 100 dollars per nozzle for a manual needle built into the nozzle. It is a glorified bobby pin fit to the interior diameter of the nozzle orifice. Seems worth it but even the rep said it could be done without it built in.

And for the h202 I would shield the roots from the spray, just want to get the lines, pump and nozzles cleared. In my dreams I have a static mixer for ultrasonic cavitation so the nutes are much more bioavailable. Though that means it would rupture the cell walls of the microbes, making it pointless. Has to be a middle way. What about the tea's being fed via handwatering.

I'll try it and journal results. Thats when I get my system together...Hydraulic atomizer nozzles are almost 100 dollars less than the air-atomizers... my head has been in a cruel game of red rover with money and reality on one side and the right way to do things on the other.

 

[jamesvagabond]

[FONT=&quot]1/4JCO+SU11 same nozzle with manual clean-out needle.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]$116.32ea. From sprayer systems.

This is nickel plated brass, so no good really for our purposes. The SS is much more expensive. I wish brass wasn't an issue its like 70% cheaper.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Stainless Steel material:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1/4J-SS+SU11-SS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Qty. 1-5[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]$169.95ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Qty. 12-35[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]$134.01ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1/4JCO-SS+SU11-SS (clean-out)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Qty. 1-5[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]$274.00ea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Qty. 12-36[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]$216.05ea


*as a disclaimer or whatever, these prices are not set in stone or anything. I am not a rep or have any affiliation just passing what I have come across.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[jamesvagabond]

I am looking at the [FONT=&amp]1/4J-SS+SU11-SS [/FONT]and since I am getting 12, its 134 but that is SO damn much, it's painful. Ideally its a good investment, but the organics makes things a little more complicated. more input...

 

[jamesvagabond]

Came across this page on organic aeroponics...http://www.astrogrow.com/Nutrient.htm Stating that the inorganic nutes clog and leave a residue, I imagine due to salt buildup and incomplete solution.

Don't mean to high jack anything, I am eagerly waiting your return TB. How's the system coming?

 

[Trichy Bastard]

I don't have one yet, but I read in a different forum, maybe even this thread -I can't keep track anymore ha its all the same heads writing- that a guy was using a 66 gallon water tank that was rated at 125 psi, with regulators and release valves set to 100 psi.

It seems like I may just get air-assisted atomizer nozzles, I'd like the extra control, and with a tank that large I think it is efficient. Fortunately there is an awkward closet space in my room that will fit it. My plan is to use 3 fridge compressors in series to pump the tank, hopefully once a day. If need be, they will be enclosed and insulated for soundproofing.

Any recommendations for air-assisted nozzles?

How is the system coming along? I am excited to hear more developments. You guys have made such an unfathomable contribution, fair to say much more than Richard Stoner (i love it) ever did. What good is
"scientific progress" if the information is not disseminated. How can any advancements be made if it is vanguarded by a small frat of "experts"? I guess gotta keep the serfs from reading. Sorry first stoned rant...can't promise the last.

We're all still testing various AA nozzles and none have come out as the end all be all that I know of, however- most are fairly adjustable and can be made to support a large range of conditions... It's likely that the best way is to use the pressure fed nozzles, however the simplicity of siphon fed has me wanting to play around with it...

 

[Trichy Bastard]

No experience with AA or HPA (long time learner/planner/plotter) but to the guy wanting to run organics through his pipes and sprayers, that I do have much experience with. even when filtering my 50 gal tea brewer and sending it out to my field through pvc and pencil lead-sized-opening sprayers, the bio film builds up in the lines and will eventually clog everything. that was outdoors. indoors in my space aged low pressure aero pods I made the mistake of adding some organic additive (i forget the name) that did the exact same thing. I mean bio film clogged everything from the sprayers to the filters nearly killed all my pumps. bottom line, aero in my experience and anything being ran through a sprayer must be sterile and filtered or pure water and cleaned between runs. especially with those tiny opening sprayers used in true high pressure aero or aaa .

Thanks for your inputs and sharing your experiences. I kind of assumed the same and am fine running sterile myself. That being said, perhaps someone will come up with a good blend of innoculents that won't have these issues, but I'm just fine with my sterile environment because it's so many less variables...

 

[Trichy Bastard]

I have to agree with local - Trying to run organics in misting/some drip systems
leads to clogs and headaches. You could run H202, but that will likely kill any beneficial
organisms that are meant to benefit via use of organics. If any bio nutes/teas get into
your pumps/clog the filters, especially with HP/AA aero, you're just asking for clogs and
waking up to dead plants.

TB: I read the Atomix had nozzles with a "cleaning needle" - Have you seen any other
nozzles with that type of feature?

Yes, they did use the cleaning needle- many of the companies making aa nozzles have the option for that in their nozzle bodies. Since I am running sterile, I don't see te need for the extra cost and parts that could fail- not to mention I suspect the nozzle uses more air for actuating the needle which will cost more down the line too...

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Yes, spray systems makes them but the ARE NOT cheap. slap an extra 100 dollars per nozzle for a manual needle built into the nozzle. It is a glorified bobby pin fit to the interior diameter of the nozzle orifice. Seems worth it but even the rep said it could be done without it built in.

And for the h202 I would shield the roots from the spray, just want to get the lines, pump and nozzles cleared. In my dreams I have a static mixer for ultrasonic cavitation so the nutes are much more bioavailable. Though that means it would rupture the cell walls of the microbes, making it pointless. Has to be a middle way. What about the tea's being fed via handwatering.

I'll try it and journal results. Thats when I get my system together...Hydraulic atomizer nozzles are almost 100 dollars less than the air-atomizers... my head has been in a cruel game of red rover with money and reality on one side and the right way to do things on the other.

Haha- great analogy ... DO you have any links to reputable scientific papers in regards to ultrasonic cavitation making nutes more bio-available?

 

[Trichy Bastard]

1/4JCO+SU11 same nozzle with manual clean-out needle.
$116.32ea. From sprayer systems.

This is nickel plated brass, so no good really for our purposes. The SS is much more expensive. I wish brass wasn't an issue its like 70% cheaper.

Stainless Steel material:
1/4J-SS+SU11-SS
Qty. 1-5
$169.95ea
Qty. 12-35
$134.01ea

1/4JCO-SS+SU11-SS (clean-out)
Qty. 1-5
$274.00ea
Qty. 12-36
$216.05ea


*as a disclaimer or whatever, these prices are not set in stone or anything. I am not a rep or have any affiliation just passing what I have come across.

The Atomix used nickel plated brass, as are the ones I just bought. I don't wanna spend big bucks until I know they even work well... It's not much an issue as the time for contact is not so much as it just gets sprayed and is not recycled in DTW...

 

[Trichy Bastard]

I am looking at the 1/4J-SS+SU11-SS and since I am getting 12, its 134 but that is SO damn much, it's painful. Ideally its a good investment, but the organics makes things a little more complicated. more input...

Are you sure u need 12 nozzles? I am pretty sure 1 or 2 max will fill virtually any sized chamber given longer spraying times- these things can output HUGE plumes of mist... Recommend buying the parts for a single test chamber first, and them making sure it all works well before buying your whole room setup...

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Came across this page on organic aeroponics...http://www.astrogrow.com/Nutrient.htm Stating that the inorganic nutes clog and leave a residue, I imagine due to salt buildup and incomplete solution.

Don't mean to high jack anything, I am eagerly waiting your return TB. How's the system coming?

That article is filled with misinfo IMO. He is obviously not running true HPA- or he would have fried his plants after 1000 ppm surely... Plus we use DTW, much better again IMO...

I have been real busy in personal life, but I can report things are doing very well and my life is much better lately- I really should get this chamber going in the near future after finishing setting up my rental unit- I had some horrible tenants causing me grief the last few months... Thanks for everyone's patience...

 

[jamesvagabond]

That article is filled with misinfo IMO. He is obviously not running true HPA- or he would have fried his plants after 1000 ppm surely... Plus we use DTW, much better again IMO...

I have been real busy in personal life, but I can report things are doing very well and my life is much better lately- I really should get this chamber going in the near future after finishing setting up my rental unit- I had some horrible tenants causing me grief the last few months... Thanks for everyone's patience...

Welcome back! Ha this must be what Narnia feels like when Aslan returns...

Ya I definitely am scaling down the numbers of sprayers I need. I think even 6 is a lot, but I like the idea of some spares. I was going to use 12 because I was originally thinking isolated chambers, but I am combining them into a larger footprint a 9x12 box with 8 plants.

And ya, I realized pretty shortly after I posted that link that it was garbage...he lost me when he said that with aero you can run WAY higher ppms...ya buddy ok...

I am still going to use organics, but I have plenty of H&G leftover as a fail safe. I have a boss that kicked me 1600 dollars worth of equipment and nutes. Gotta love the PNW...

Also very very good to know about the nickel/brass. I didn't factor in the dtw and short contact time. THANK YOU GOOD SIR! You just saved me like 600 dollars, may even splurge and get the nickel brass self-cleaning nozzles. It is less than what I was going to buy the SS for. Man, I seem to really love making things more complicated than they need to be.

 

[jamesvagabond]

No experience with AA or HPA (long time learner/planner/plotter) but to the guy wanting to run organics through his pipes and sprayers, that I do have much experience with. even when filtering my 50 gal tea brewer and sending it out to my field through pvc and pencil lead-sized-opening sprayers, the bio film builds up in the lines and will eventually clog everything. that was outdoors. indoors in my space aged low pressure aero pods I made the mistake of adding some organic additive (i forget the name) that did the exact same thing. I mean bio film clogged everything from the sprayers to the filters nearly killed all my pumps. bottom line, aero in my experience and anything being ran through a sprayer must be sterile and filtered or pure water and cleaned between runs. especially with those tiny opening sprayers used in true high pressure aero or aaa .

So this is just a theory, and could have direct correlation with the joint in my mouth, but my guess for the biofilm is that it could be avoided with different materials. Any inert material that does not allow for cationic adhesion would prevent biofilm growth. Cell membranes "stick" to materials via cationic exchange, so with SS or HDPE you would be good. Now, I don't know what options for materials for air/liquid lines are...

 

[jamesvagabond]

Haha- great analogy ... DO you have any links to reputable scientific papers in regards to ultrasonic cavitation making nutes more bio-available?

I am a patent junkie, I'll dig it up. I got it from Originoil, they also use it to rupture the cell walls of algal cells to harvest the lipids for biofuel and pharmaceuticals. It's proprietary, at least under that name but cavitation has been around for a while. I'll post the link in a bit...

 

[jamesvagabond]

http://www.google.com/patents/US20090029445

The whole thing is gold, but details on the static mixer (another name for cavitator or quantum fracturing) start on paragraph 0039. Also details on removing accumulations of organic matter! MWAHAHA enzymes can be used or any other type of surfactant. UV exposure will also kill living cells on the nozzles, chamber etc. I can remove the whole plant from the chamber and put it in a sterile container, then clean out the lines, nozzles chambers etc and put them back in.

 

[jamesvagabond]

The concept is that the EM field produced by the static mixer produces ultrasonic frequencies, which agitates the media creating micron sized bubbles that mix in contact with undissolved nutrients. The rupturing air bubbles are what produce the ultrasonic frequencies, and when they come into contact with any particles, the USF's break down the bonds, into a colloidal/monatomic size range. This can be analogized with our droplets. As stated by Atomizer, and I don't remember the specifics, a single drop of water won't hydrate anything more than what it contacts as it rolls down the root. But the same droplet atomized to 50 microns can cover a huge volume.

The static mixer turns bulky molecules into low micron sized molecules, enabling optimization of root cell uptake.

 

[jamesvagabond]

It's also super handy because there are no mechanical parts and uses miniscule amounts of power. I can't wait to get one, but I'd use it for algae, and have another for plants. My goal is a closed-loop grow room/house/world.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Welcome back! Ha this must be what Narnia feels like when Aslan returns...

Ya I definitely am scaling down the numbers of sprayers I need. I think even 6 is a lot, but I like the idea of some spares. I was going to use 12 because I was originally thinking isolated chambers, but I am combining them into a larger footprint a 9x12 box with 8 plants.

And ya, I realized pretty shortly after I posted that link that it was garbage...he lost me when he said that with aero you can run WAY higher ppms...ya buddy ok...

I am still going to use organics, but I have plenty of H&G leftover as a fail safe. I have a boss that kicked me 1600 dollars worth of equipment and nutes. Gotta love the PNW...

Also very very good to know about the nickel/brass. I didn't factor in the dtw and short contact time. THANK YOU GOOD SIR! You just saved me like 600 dollars, may even splurge and get the nickel brass self-cleaning nozzles. It is less than what I was going to buy the SS for. Man, I seem to really love making things more complicated than they need to be.

lol... The credit goes to tree farmer and Atomizer... Pretty much taught me everything I know on the subject, and they are definitely the mentors here... I just happened to be seeking the best way to do this stuff, and consistently they seem to have the answers I was looking for... I didn't see a real need to use the cleanout needle, but perhaps if you are going to attempt the organic route it will be of some help to you...