High ph in soil from too much dolomite

[GandalfdaGreen]

Hey everyone. I have a high ph in my current soil mix. 7.2ish. I use FFOF and FFHF as the base with perlite added. I used 2 tbsp of dolomite per gallon when I mixed the blend. I knew the FF soils were ph adjusted already. I was dumb. I am kicking myself hard for my screw up. I now have a magnesium and P lockout from the high ph. I know this for sure. Classic. How can I lower my soils ph for the long run with the excess dolomite in the soil? The plants are in veg now and I'd like to get them into bloom as soon as they are corrected. What is the best way to go here? I have aluminum sulfate powder ready to go but I am hesitant until I hear some opinions on this. Any input from long time organic growers will be of huge help. Thank you for the input. Take care.

 

[apollo4]

Don't worry that's not a biggie,flush you'll. befine

 

[GandalfdaGreen]

So just flush them with water at a ph of 6.4ish? Then wait and give them a tea 3 days later?

 

[Nullis]

Don't flush. That probably wont even correct the issue, dolomite works long term neutralizing acids, producing carbon dioxide, water and mineral cations (Ca, Mg) which will be used by the plant or retained via CEC. IMO 7.2 isn't a very high pH... How do you know you have lockout? How long have they been in the mix? How much perlite did you add? Pictures?

If you added a little bit too much lime it is easily corrected by mixing in some more sphagnum peat moss. Fish emulsion will lower pH, high N guano (ammonia nitrogen), many liquid organics are quite acidic. Blackstrap is mildly acidic and apple cider vinegar can be used in irrigation water.

What is the typical pH of your water source and fertigation solutions (if using anything)? This is going to help you determine how much lime to add. You add more if you use a water with very low TDS (rain, distilled, RO or multi-stage filtered water); another consideration is when using raw organic liquid nutrients (case in point Earth Juice) which tend to bring the pH of fertigation solutions way down. If you use hard water that has a lot of minerals dissolved in it, you won't be needing too much additional lime. It is important not to use any other kind of liquid pH Up, as it is not required in sufficiently limed mixes (the lime essentially is the pH up, only it works over a longer period of time). Another thing you shouldn't need is any liquid Ca\Mg product (if so, sparingly or later on).

Ocean Forest and Happy Frog are both supposed to be pH adjusted; OF contains oyster shell flour and HF has oyster shell and dolomite lime. The Fox Farm website says that Ocean Forest is 6.3 to 6.8, which would be alright if it were but you would have to check as batches can be inconsistent. Both OF and HF have sphagnum peat, though, which will revert to acidity over time under the right circumstances.

Also did you use heaping tablespoons or level tablespoons? Seems like you'd have been alright if you used just about half of what you did. A tablespoon would have done you fine.

 

[GandalfdaGreen]

Thank you so much Nullis. When I go up to the final container I will add some more of the sphagnum peat moss to the mix. You are a wealth of knowledge. The plants have been in the mix for about a month. When I moved up in container size a week ago I added only straight HF/OF. Perlite is 20% of the blend. Azomite is in there too at 1 tbsp per gallon. Pictures are below. My water is well water with a ph of 6.4 and my ppm is 60-70 every time I check, which is regularly. I have a hard time believing the readings I get for my well water but I use 3 different ph pens and a brand new ppm pen. My well is just over 300 feet deep up in Maine. (Yes I am OCD with my growing) The tablespoons were fairly level. I did think it was a magnesium def two weeks ago and I added a 1/4 strength of GeneralOrganics CalMag. That sure did not help. It was an immature knee jerk move. I have never added any form of ph up to my water. I used a rapitest soil kit to figure out I have a high soil ph.
I am apprehensive to add anything with nutes in it, such as the fish emulsion, until I get this straight. I want to play this out very carefully. Growth is excellent minus the lower fan leaves showing the problems. Again, thank you for taking a look.

 

[mycomaster]

Sorry to see you having troubles man. I think that Nullis hit it on the head for the most part with his analysis, but he didn't see the pics though. I think your off a little on your ph brother, and I also think maybe P def. I'm not sure, but I was having a similar looking problem and gave some R.O. HPK and some Neptunes Harvest Fish and Seaweed for some N to help. I'm really trying to get away from bottle nutes, but when you have such problems they can be very beneficial. I try to use lime sparingly cause of these types of problems. I like to make solutions of dissolved lime in water with epsoms in it for a cal/mg boost when needed. I really don't like the way lime can mess up your ph and have started to use crab meal instead for my cal needs in my soil. I still use lime because it works great in small doses, but have steered away from it as my main source of calcium. I also been reading on gypsum as an alternative and like the ease of it's use. Some things in your soil you can go a little nuts on adding and others are as scary as petro chemical nutes in ways. Organic farming is a great hobby, but can get complicated if taken to the extreme like we are trying to do for our girls. Still it gets me out of bed every morning and gives me a reason to keep learning. Gotta love that! I hope some of this is helpful, I'm so slow this morning from a 1 gram Gigabud cone I smoked cause my tummy was cramping somethin fierce. Look at all of us, a bunch of itensely medicated people looking at pictures trying to figure out plant problems hundreds, sometimes thousands of miles away. Pretty damn cool! Peace out.

 

[Slipon]

I did the same once, mixed to much Mearl (Oceanic Lime) in to my mix and ended up on +7 in PH

my solution was to make a repot with some fresh soil with out any extra lime added

did the job, plus I had no problems what so ever in flowering with acid soil

 

[hyroot]

these will also lower ph and act as a buffer.

sawdust, composted leaves, wood chips, cottonseed meal, leaf mold and peat moss.

lemon juice will also bring ph down...

peat sounds the best though. it does have some beneficial bacteria and fungi and enzymes too.


I stopped using dole lime too. I only use it to sprinkle a border around my outdoor garden to keep the slugs and snails and outdoor roaches away.

crab meal. - n, mag, cal, chitin
shrimp meal -n , p, mag, cal, chitin
oyster shell flour - cal, mag
neem meal / cake - n, p, k , cal, mag. manganese, sulphur, zinc, iron,

 

[Slipon]

if its only the lower grow I doubt its a lock out, lock out tent to show on the new growth, a too acid or basic soil mix or watering can easily curse the new leave`s to act up odd and make em curl either up or down


BTW
I have it completely the other way around, my water (tap) is ground water, very clean (+1000 YO) but stands in lime stone, according to my water plant its around 7,4PH so I use a soil with not to much lime in it, and a PH around 6-6,5 usually do it for me , but I have to be careful with the lime

 

[mycomaster]

I like the added bonus of the chitin, and also the chitin eating bennies that will help provide a measure of critter control. I'll have to check out the shrimp meal for the added N, but I like chicken compost for that as well. I once lived in a house where the people before me had a chicken coop on the back of the garage, I tore down the chicken coop and put in a garden after tilling it all under and adding some goodies. I had sunflowers larger than the two story garage, and tomato and pot plants that I had to build a trellis for out of 2x4's and rope. Pretty wild. Since then I've been adding chicken compost and manure to all my soils. I currently use something called Charlies Compost, it's made close and it's a no brainer considering it doesn't stink and the plants simply love it. I've never had a N def since using it. Take it easy everyone. Peace out.

 

[GandalfdaGreen]

I just went out and bought the R.O. HPK bro. I went to a small little hole in the wall hydro store that I'd never been to. It is two years old and I wanted to give it time to see if it was legit. I have a new home there. Of course I had to buy a ton of more. I need to open my own hydro store. No joke. I want to see Nullis' take on the pictures since I was a pain in the ass and asked him. I feel like I am surrounded by the "knights of the round table of growing" with the guys on this thread. You guys kill it. Thank you so much for your support here. I love having a place to go for help. I will pass this on to others who need similar help down the line. Take care.

 

[hyroot]

i just use shrimp meal, rock dust, kelp meal, and neem meal. when im broke and out of nutes Ive used dr .earth tomato n vegetable or roots organic uprsing(veg). its pretty good. less than $10 for 4 lbs. I like the shimp meal n what not more .

 

[st0wandgrow]

Nulis gave you the advice you need to follow. Cut your mix with some sphagum peat moss which is on the acidic side and this alone should bring your mix down in to the range you want it in.

 

[1itsme]

I did the exact same thing one time. Well, i also added chicken manure compost... which turned out to be hen poop and had a very high ph as well. the thing I ended up doing was as others have suggested, i added peat. worked very well for me. hth

 

[GandalfdaGreen]

What ratio of sphagum do you add to the blend? Thanks guys.

 

[1itsme]

I just topped off the pots with it, and worked it in with my fingertips a little. 3-4 cups in 3 gal smart pots i thnk.

 

[Nullis]

Thank you so much Nullis. When I go up to the final container I will add some more of the sphagnum peat moss to the mix. You are a wealth of knowledge. The plants have been in the mix for about a month. When I moved up in container size a week ago I added only straight HF/OF. Perlite is 20% of the blend. Azomite is in there too at 1 tbsp per gallon. Pictures are below. My water is well water with a ph of 6.4 and my ppm is 60-70 every time I check, which is regularly. I have a hard time believing the readings I get for my well water but I use 3 different ph pens and a brand new ppm pen. My well is just over 300 feet deep up in Maine. (Yes I am OCD with my growing) The tablespoons were fairly level. I did think it was a magnesium def two weeks ago and I added a 1/4 strength of GeneralOrganics CalMag. That sure did not help. It was an immature knee jerk move. I have never added any form of ph up to my water. I used a rapitest soil kit to figure out I have a high soil ph.
I am apprehensive to add anything with nutes in it, such as the fish emulsion, until I get this straight. I want to play this out very carefully. Growth is excellent minus the lower fan leaves showing the problems. Again, thank you for taking a look.

Just want to gets this straight... Those plants had been in a mix of OF/HF for a month; had you added lime to that mix originally? And then when you transplanted you over-limed the fresh mix? How big were the existing containers, and the ones you transplanted into? Just trying to get an idea just how much lime is in there.

When you used the kit to check the soil pH where exactly did you obtain the soil sample from? (e.g. the fresh mix, or nearer the center of the pot in the older mix) Have you checked the run-off, just out of curiosity?

You have been giving just straight water this whole time? A quarter strength dose of the CaMg product you used wouldn't have hurt anything. Azomite also has a bit of calcium, and if it is the pure micronized kind you could use a bit less. If you have just been using water, I would say that it is due for a light feeding, at least. It does look like deficiencies starting to show, namely nitrogen and phosphorous. The white spots on that one leaf kinda baffles me. Still doesn't seem to be the kind of symptoms you would expect solely from a pH issue... you would have more sickly looking plants all around, growing very slowly if at all.

Another thing I noticed is the soil mix/pots look quite dry. I can't lift them from here obviously, but from the looks of it they needed a good watering. It's looking like they are getting to the point where I would recommend you start watering slowly, with a smaller volume of water, initially. Then wait about 20 minutes, and go back in for a thorough watering. When the soil is too dry it wont absorb the water too well, and you could end up with dry spots in the container. Without sufficient moisture throughout the rhizosphere it will hinder the roots' ability to absorb nutrients.

 

[Wetdog]

First off, 7.2 isn't a big deal.

Second, dolo has a pH of 7.0 and isn't going to go above that, look elsewhere. I've grown stuff in pure crushed limestone before. Didn't work well due to poor drainage, but nothing got burnt or locked out.

Third, Rapidtest isn't all that for accurate readings.

Fourth, listen to Nullis, he knows his shit.

I think a LITFA approach would be best here, but add some peat moss if it makes you feel better.

Quit chasing pH in organics, it's futile, since it never stays in one spot.

Wet

BTW, those plants look fine. I wouldn't worry over old bottom leaves. Have you ever seen anything keep all its leaves the entire growing season?

 

[GandalfdaGreen]

Just want to gets this straight... Those plants had been in a mix of OF/HF for a month; had you added lime to that mix originally? And then when you transplanted you over-limed the fresh mix? How big were the existing containers, and the ones you transplanted into? Just trying to get an idea just how much lime is in there.

When you used the kit to check the soil pH where exactly did you obtain the soil sample from? (e.g. the fresh mix, or nearer the center of the pot in the older mix) Have you checked the run-off, just out of curiosity?

You have been giving just straight water this whole time? A quarter strength dose of the CaMg product you used wouldn't have hurt anything. Azomite also has a bit of calcium, and if it is the pure micronized kind you could use a bit less. If you have just been using water, I would say that it is due for a light feeding, at least. It does look like deficiencies starting to show, namely nitrogen and phosphorous. The white spots on that one leaf kinda baffles me. Still doesn't seem to be the kind of symptoms you would expect solely from a pH issue... you would have more sickly looking plants all around, growing very slowly if at all.

Another thing I noticed is the soil mix/pots look quite dry. I can't lift them from here obviously, but from the looks of it they needed a good watering. It's looking like they are getting to the point where I would recommend you start watering slowly, with a smaller volume of water, initially. Then wait about 20 minutes, and go back in for a thorough watering. When the soil is too dry it wont absorb the water too well, and you could end up with dry spots in the container. Without sufficient moisture throughout the rhizosphere it will hinder the roots' ability to absorb nutrients.

They were in a mix of FFOF and HF for 3 weeks which was amended with dolomite. Last week I started to see these signs and transplanted from 1 gallon into 2 gallon containers with just a 50-50 mix of OF and HF. No dolomite added this time. I got the soil sample from about 4 inches down about 2 inches from the side of the container. I have made two teas in my brewer. Both had a cup of lobster compost, a cup of cow manure, a tsp per gallon of both budswell bat guano and peruvian seabird guano, a tsp per gallon of fish and kelp, and a touch of Humbolt Honey.

I do let the containers get light for a day. I had a bad experience in the past with overwatering and I won't go there again. I now know that letting the containers get too dry is horrible for the beneficials in the blend. I have azos and mycos in the mixes.

Thank you for helping out Nullis. I appreciate your looking at this. Take care.

 

[GandalfdaGreen]

First off, 7.2 isn't a big deal.

Second, dolo has a pH of 7.0 and isn't going to go above that, look elsewhere. I've grown stuff in pure crushed limestone before. Didn't work well due to poor drainage, but nothing got burnt or locked out.

Third, Rapidtest isn't all that for accurate readings.

Fourth, listen to Nullis, he knows his shit.

I think a LITFA approach would be best here, but add some peat moss if it makes you feel better.

Quit chasing pH in organics, it's futile, since it never stays in one spot.

Wet

BTW, those plants look fine. I wouldn't worry over old bottom leaves. Have you ever seen anything keep all its leaves the entire growing season?

I appreciate the honesty Wet. I think the LITFA approach may be best too. I am done messing with them. If this doesn't help they are on their own. I am done chasing this. Thanks for the advice. It is spot on. Take care.