Breeding Autos

I've never grown any autos but am curious about the breeding strategy. Correct me if I'm wrong but if a plant flowers at a predetermined time then it has a limited amount of seeds it can produce. Also no use to clone because it is already on its way to dying. I'm just throwing numbers around but if a breeder wants to work with auto flowering plants they need to run many tests and cannot do traditional backcrosses and such do to the fact by the time you smoke it its already to late to go back and use for breeding. The logistics of creating a strain are mind blowing to say the least. So heres my point, I'll use lowrider as an example, If the breeder had 1000 seeds from the original breed how does he make more? What does he do to maintain quality if you can't smoke the plants your breeding with? Do the breeders let you know when one batch of seeds is gone because they cannot be the same as the original and there is limited amount of each? Alot of these auto flower strains have been around for 10 or so years and I assume are different than origanally advertised. This is really just a rant, but it sort of offends me to see all these ruderalis genetics finding there way into the gene pool. I think there handy for someone with a very limited amount of space or for someone that need to harvest outdoor by July. Other than that it baffles my why anyone would want to weaken good jeans for a novelty like autos? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

its simple. to create a new strain first you cross a auto and photoperiod strain. for potency, select a potent photoperiod plant. you then grow the the F1 seeds and pollinate lower branches of the best plants and leave colas for testing. .you will not see auto plants in the F1 generation since the auto gene is said to be recessive to photoperiod. ( flowering will have to be induced since the auto plants are not present during F1). of the F2's, grow many plants and select the auto plants that match the traits that you selected for in the F1 generation. From this point you continue to inbreed the progeny only selecting for the same traits in the beginning creating a uniform IBL auto. its that simple but takes many generations to stabilize.

by the way i think your wrong about weakining genetics for novelties. i have some auto weed now from a strain called pinkbud which yeilded 1oz per plant in 1 gallon grow bags and is way more potent than g13 BB gum and sweet seeds sweet afghan delicious which are photoperiod. if you educate yourself on autos, you would realize that if bred properly, the ditch weed genes can be bred out of ruderilas leaving only the recessive auto gene.

I see your point and it is better than I thought, but once your selecting from autos how do you save the moms and pops for future breeeding? As far a weakening the gene pool maybe I was a bit harsh, I'm sure responsible breeders try to keep there pollen in check. I was just commenting because the other day at the grow store I met a guy totally going off about how his Jack Herer sucked. After a little conversation I learned he had an auto Jack not a real deal. He didn't understand the difference of even know that Sensi carries an original. So while weakening the gene pool may not be the correct explaination, anyone who got a bag from him thinks its really Jack Herer and probably would go on to talk shit about it. That sucks, I've smoked Jack with Jack and it don't suck, its great! The real problem is a bunch of idiots not understanding breeding or pheno selection wrecking the name of some great shit. Luckily autos auto and if someone wants to breed with them they have to act fast. No offence, I just don't see the reason to want autos unless your really strapped for time or space. Also I know that Cali Connection has had problems with auto pollen finding its way into regular seeds. At least your explaination cleared up some of it for me. Thanks

[QUOTE=Bigtacofarmer;7028906]I see your point and it is better than I thought, but once your selecting from autos how do you save the moms and pops for future breeeding?


when making selections you cant save them, you have to pick parents from each generation, pollinate, and then select new parents from the off spring. that is how true breeding IBL strains are created.

Bigtacofarmer said:

I've never grown any autos but am curious about the breeding strategy. Correct me if I'm wrong but if a plant flowers at a predetermined time then it has a limited amount of seeds it can produce. Also no use to clone because it is already on its way to dying. I'm just throwing numbers around but if a breeder wants to work with auto flowering plants they need to run many tests and cannot do traditional backcrosses and such do to the fact by the time you smoke it its already to late to go back and use for breeding. The logistics of creating a strain are mind blowing to say the least. So heres my point, I'll use lowrider as an example, If the breeder had 1000 seeds from the original breed how does he make more? What does he do to maintain quality if you can't smoke the plants your breeding with? Do the breeders let you know when one batch of seeds is gone because they cannot be the same as the original and there is limited amount of each? Alot of these auto flower strains have been around for 10 or so years and I assume are different than origanally advertised. This is really just a rant, but it sort of offends me to see all these ruderalis genetics finding there way into the gene pool. I think there handy for someone with a very limited amount of space or for someone that need to harvest outdoor by July. Other than that it baffles my why anyone would want to weaken good jeans for a novelty like autos? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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First of all, its perfectly possible to partially fertilize a plant, save its seeds, then smoke the rest of it, discarding the seeds if the plant is no good, but saving them if it is good. So the premise of your question is faulty.

Its also true that many if not most so-called "strains" available commercially really are unstabilized hybrids, not true-breeding (ie stabilized) strains. So the problem with what you might call "line drift" you describe in ruderalis-based autoflowers can be seen in various commercially bred non-autoflower strains as well.

In short, if a strain is bred correctly, it will be stable, whether its an autoflower or not.

Next, if you are doing proper selection, once you do enough crosses the genetics eventually stabilize into a true breeding line, and once that happens, all offspring are genetically identical to the parents. So at that point, any cross should yield more seeds identical to the parents. In fact, by definition, that's what a true "strain" is.

This can certainly be done without cloning or backcrosses, and in fact many types of breeding are only done that way. It just takes a little more time and work.

In terms of "weakening genes" that construct doesn't make sense. If you're breeding properly, then by definition you're doing selection. . .you're deliberately choosing only those plants that have the traits (ie genes) that you want. Good breeding shouldn't "weaken" genes; it only selects for the ones you are interested in.

Bigtacofarmer said:

After a little conversation I learned he had an auto Jack not a real deal. He didn't understand the difference of even know that Sensi carries an original.

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Well, the problem there isn't autoflower vs non-autoflower, its one of labelling/branding.

There is absolutely no legal oversight of the cannabis seed industry, and there are a lot of unscrupulous dealers looking to make a quick buck.

In another industry, if I called my beverage "auto-Coca-cola", I'd be slapped with a restraining order then a lawsuit so fast my head would spin.

In the cannabis industry, I can take any seeds I like, call them "Jack Herer super-deluxe" or "Whiter Widow" (or even just "Jack Herer" and "White Widow"), and nobody can do anything to stop me from blatantly ripping off what amounts to their trademarks other than by trying to bad-mouth me.

Not only does this kind of brand-name theft happen with cannabis seeds, its actually fairly COMMON.

The real problem is a bunch of idiots not understanding breeding or pheno selection wrecking the name of some great shit.

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I'd say the problem is that a bunch of seed sellers in the cannabis industry are basically lowlifes who have no problem sponging off the hard work and reputation of others. Whether or not they actually understand breeding is besides the point.

Also I know that Cali Connection has had problems with auto pollen finding its way into regular seeds

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Well, I've heard they've had problems with hermaphrodite genetics, not autoflowers.

Stipulating that they did actually make the claim you say, that they've "had problems with autoflower pollen" bluntly, I don't believe that for one split second.

The only way auto-flower pollen could possibly find its way into their breeding stock is if:

a. They're breeding outdoors in an area close to uncontrolled male autoflower growth (ie they're careless and/or stupid), or
b. If they let pollen from their OWN indoor autoflower plant breeding projects get into their breeding stock (ie they're careless and/or incompetent).

There is no way any commercial breeder worth that name is going to let their seeds get exposed to (random) open outdoor pollenization. Nor should it ever happen indoors either.

No offence, I just don't see the reason to want autos unless your really strapped for time or space.

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Well, those are, in fact two legitimate reasons why you might want to. Here are some others:

https://www.rollitup.org/auto-flowering-strains/502366-pros-cons-info-needed-autoflower-3.html#post6925856

it sort of offends me to see all these ruderalis genetics finding there way into the gene pool.

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First of all, Ruderalis genetics are already part of the cannabis "gene pool", if you are using the correct definition of the term. By definition, the "gene pool" refers to all available genes in a particular species. With respect to cannabis, the gene pool includes indica genes, sativa genes, ruderalis genes, hemp genes, purple genes, blueberry genes, etc, etc,

If you're saying you wouldn't like it if Ruderalis genetics began to contaminate your non-Ruderalis grows, well, you wouldn't be alone. Nobody who is trying to maintain stable lines wants what is known as "open pollenization" where random pollen from random father plants fertilizes random mother plants.

That's why virtually all commercial breeding is done indoors.

Note that the issue of "stray" pollen isn't limited to Ruderalis plants in any way. Ordinary and/or wild hemp plants can fertilize and contaminate medical cannabis plants, again, making it impossible to grow seedless plants outdoors in some places, and also severely restricting the ability to breed outdoors.

But if you're growing indoors, wild-growing or even deliberately planted commercially growing outdoor Ruderalis plants really shouldn't affect your grow. Its a non-issue.