Clawing leaves / stunted growth

Hi everyone
I’ve got a problem and have tried everything I’m not a newbie either ( 20+ years).
Here’s the room set up 4mx4m , 16 plants, temp 23-25deg, fan slow moving over of plants, 3x 600w lumatek leds on 75% between 450-600 u/mols, 65% humidity, coco perlite 70/30 mix 12 litre pots.
Using bio diesel nutrient A+B, supernatural, cal-mag, Aloevate, bio one. PH 5.7-6.2 ( generally 6 but change to release different nutrients at different PH levels). EC between 1.6-2.2 ( depending on size of plants) hand water when needed. Run off EC 6.4, coir PH 7.1
ISSUES!
Clawing leaves, light colour leaves, leaves are all wavey, slow growth. Clawing started in week 3 of growth started with bigger shade leaves then moved to new growth but some leaves are fine but generally at bottom/ middle of plant.
WHAT I HAVE TRIED
Flushed plants with crystal clear for 1 cycle then slowly added nutrients at 25%, 50% ETC by just stepping up each water.

Im totally stumped I’ve tried every but nothing seems to fix the issue started week 3 now in week 7 and I would have normally turned back at week 5. I thought it could be the strain had gone bad but it’s happening across different strains,
Any help would be muchly appreciated photos attached

mg deficency could allsoo be that the plant cant access the mg at ph 7.1

amneziaHaze said:

mg deficency could allsoo be that the plant cant access the mg at ph 7.1

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Coco perlite has a 7.1 natural ph level, run off only 6.4 so no nute lockout. If was Mag issue would have been sorted when I flushed ( run off 6-6.4) and also been feeding it cal mag from start, I’ve even used two different brands and been giving it the max level recommended by grow charts. I use highly concentrated cal-mag only use .5ml per litre of one and 1ml per litre of other brand both of these levels are at the high end of there grow charts. I also didn’t have this issue on any past grows ( 5 this strain). I thought my cal mag could have been bad that’s why I tried another brand but same results also cutting are fine up to week 3 or so then they start to go this way as I step up the nutrients as you should as the plant grows which would indicate my nice mix is too strong but that’s certainly not the case.

POSTIE said:

Coco perlite has a 7.1 natural ph level, run off only 6.4 so no nute lockout. If was Mag issue would have been sorted when I flushed ( run off 6-6.4) and also been feeding it cal mag from start, I’ve even used two different brands and been giving it the max level recommended by grow charts. I use highly concentrated cal-mag only use .5ml per litre of one and 1ml per litre of other brand both of these levels are at the high end of there grow charts. I also didn’t have this issue on any past grows ( 5 this strain). I thought my cal mag could have been bad that’s why I tried another brand but same results also cutting are fine up to week 3 or so then they start to go this way as I step up the nutrients as you should as the plant grows which would indicate my nice mix is too strong but that’s certainly not the case.

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Dude. Stop. You are calcium loaded to beat hell. I'd chuck this medium and start fresh cause you won't leech the calcium out for a couple more grow cycles lol. This is why the bottles come with these instructions on them. You're medium was already high in calcium that's why the pH was 7.1.

Beeswings said:

Dude. Stop. You are calcium loaded to beat hell. I'd chuck this medium and start fresh cause you won't leech the calcium out for a couple more grow cycles lol. This is why the bottles come with these instructions on them. You're medium was already high in calcium that's why the pH was 7.1.
View attachment 5384289

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Hi mate
Appreciate the feedback but
A. Same set up as previous 5 grows everything exactly the same, same nutrient regime etc
B. No matter how much you flush coco perlite it is buffered at 7.0-7.1 ( neutral) I thought what you did but my run off is only 6.4 it would be higher if what you are saying is true. The 7-7.1 coco perlite ph is done when dry. I tested this out by using a pot filled with coco perlite tested putting in 50 litres of level 5ph water before and after reading was exactly the same 7-7.1 but water run off 5.2 ph
If what you’re saying is true ( and it may well be) wouldn’t my run off be sky high? But it isn’t it’s only 6.2-6.4.
I definitely don’t use too much cal mag if anything I use under, these problems started when I was only giving them 25% recommended strength of cal mag.
I also didn’t have this issue the previous 5 grows following the exact same feed regiment.

I’m not trying to argue or anything but point being coco mix is 7.1 without adding anything ( fresh pot) and stays that level even when adding 50 litres of water at level of 5ph ( ran a test)
Oh should have said my mother is fine difference being I don’t water as much because it’s under fluorescents and that’s been getting the top end of the nute chart as is an older plant. Its soil also reads at 7-7.1 run off 6.2 so no difference.
I’ve been growing long enough to know you never need to give as much nutes as the company says so I’ve always leaned to the lighter side of things. That’s why I stepped the nutes up because the problem started when I was only giving the 25% of recommended usage.
thanks for your reply appreciate it.

Beeswings said:

Dude. Stop. You are calcium loaded to beat hell. I'd chuck this medium and start fresh cause you won't leech the calcium out for a couple more grow cycles lol. This is why the bottles come with these instructions on them. You're medium was already high in calcium that's why the pH was 7.1.
View attachment 5384289

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Update - I now think I’ve gotten a bad batch of coco perlite it should be between 5.5-6.5 but mine is reading 7.1 ( only a cheap soil ph tester though) so you may be correct best to just throw away grrr, it’s the only thing that explains why this lot has gone to the crap especially since my unused coco is reading exactly the same PH level.

POSTIE said:

Hi mate
Appreciate the feedback but
A. Same set up as previous 5 grows everything exactly the same, same nutrient regime etc
B. No matter how much you flush coco perlite it is buffered at 7.0-7.1 ( neutral) I thought what you did but my run off is only 6.4 it would be higher if what you are saying is true. The 7-7.1 coco perlite ph is done when dry. I tested this out by using a pot filled with coco perlite tested putting in 50 litres of level 5ph water before and after reading was exactly the same 7-7.1 but water run off 5.2 ph
If what you’re saying is true ( and it may well be) wouldn’t my run off be sky high? But it isn’t it’s only 6.2-6.4.
I definitely don’t use too much cal mag if anything I use under, these problems started when I was only giving them 25% recommended strength of cal mag.
I also didn’t have this issue the previous 5 grows following the exact same feed regiment.

I’m not trying to argue or anything but point being coco mix is 7.1 without adding anything ( fresh pot) and stays that level even when adding 50 litres of water at level of 5ph ( ran a test)
Oh should have said my mother is fine difference being I don’t water as much because it’s under fluorescents and that’s been getting the top end of the nute chart as is an older plant. Its soil also reads at 7-7.1 run off 6.2 so no difference.
I’ve been growing long enough to know you never need to give as much nutes as the company says so I’ve always leaned to the lighter side of things. That’s why I stepped the nutes up because the problem started when I was only giving the 25% of recommended usage.
thanks for your reply appreciate it.

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I hear what you're saying but the pictures even look like calcium excess. What brand of coco? The Coco manufacturing plant has tolerances as well not every batch is exactly the same.

Beeswings said:

I hear what you're saying but the pictures even look like calcium excess. What brand of coco? The Coco manufacturing plant has tolerances as well not every batch is exactly the same.

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It’s Nutfield ( I’m in Aus) yeah, that’s why I think it’s a bad batch but look at these two photos grew them from seed been in soil 5 weeks and feeding them same as plants that are in trouble, they were taller but I’ve just taken cuttings these look just fine and soil ph is exactly the same as bad plants.

POSTIE said:

Hi mate
Appreciate the feedback but
A. Same set up as previous 5 grows everything exactly the same, same nutrient regime etc
B. No matter how much you flush coco perlite it is buffered at 7.0-7.1 ( neutral) I thought what you did but my run off is only 6.4 it would be higher if what you are saying is true. The 7-7.1 coco perlite ph is done when dry. I tested this out by using a pot filled with coco perlite tested putting in 50 litres of level 5ph water before and after reading was exactly the same 7-7.1 but water run off 5.2 ph
If what you’re saying is true ( and it may well be) wouldn’t my run off be sky high? But it isn’t it’s only 6.2-6.4.
I definitely don’t use too much cal mag if anything I use under, these problems started when I was only giving them 25% recommended strength of cal mag.
I also didn’t have this issue the previous 5 grows following the exact same feed regiment.

I’m not trying to argue or anything but point being coco mix is 7.1 without adding anything ( fresh pot) and stays that level even when adding 50 litres of water at level of 5ph ( ran a test)
Oh should have said my mother is fine difference being I don’t water as much because it’s under fluorescents and that’s been getting the top end of the nute chart as is an older plant. Its soil also reads at 7-7.1 run off 6.2 so no difference.
I’ve been growing long enough to know you never need to give as much nutes as the company says so I’ve always leaned to the lighter side of things. That’s why I stepped the nutes up because the problem started when I was only giving the 25% of recommended usage.
thanks for your reply appreciate it.

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led lights require more mg maybe thats why mom is good and kids are bad...but maybe its something else

POSTIE said:

EC between 1.6-2.2 ( depending on size of plants) hand water when needed. Run off EC 6.4

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Is that a typo?

Sativied said:

Is that a typo?

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Yeah should be ph.

25c is a low for veg under LED, I'd be upping that a bit. Especially considering its affecting older fan leaves first.

If its not warm enough they wint transpire enough and absorb enough nutrients to make use of the light levels theyre getting. Which results in what appears to be every deficiency and symptom going.. chasing your tail trying to figure out the problem.

Your EC is high.

What is the run off EC ?

How much run off are you getting each feed?

Are you watering daily?

How many hours of light?

coreywebster said:

25c is a low for veg under LED, I'd be upping that a bit. Especially considering its affecting older fan leaves first.

If its not warm enough they wint transpire enough and absorb enough nutrients to make use of the light levels theyre getting. Which results in what appears to be every deficiency and symptom going.. chasing your tail trying to figure out the problem.

Your EC is high.

What is the run off EC ?

How much run off are you getting each feed?

Are you watering daily?

How many hours of light?

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hi mate
EC is definitely not too high following nute feed guide + got other plants ( different strains) that are not showing any signs of the issue I’m having and been using same feed regimen for 5+ years.
EC run off is the same as going in ( not mute lockout otherwise PH and EC would be off the charts) ph run off is between 6-6.2 and Ec 1.6-1.8 ( under 1000ppms)
I feed my plants everyday just before lights out I use by feel so I don’t over water or under water but generally 10-20% run off ( pots raised off ground)
Light cycle 18 hours on 6 off. Room drops to around 22 deg so no big difference between temps.
I’m starting to think it’s a strain problem as new clones showing same signs but other strains seem to be fine. I’ll upload some new photos but safe to say if 5 other strains seem fine but one strain struggling it may be genetics issue? As you will see when I upload new photos it’s chalk and cheese between the strains. Getting to the stage off just throwing them away done everything I can think off. Below first 4 photos same strain and obvious issues, next 4 different strains looking fine if anything I could up the nutes a bit now as 3 weeks since put in coco mix so roots pretty much established. I start around 1.2ec week 1 and work my way up to 2.00 in flower. I have soft water where I live so basically no added crap in my water as EC reading from tap water is 30 ( very very clean water) and starting ph 6.7 nutes are buffered so don’t need to really change my ph much.

I would flush with a weak nutrient solution.........then start feeding twice a day to substantial run off with a pH around 6.0.
Lower your EC to around 1.0 to 1.5 at the most.
Never give plain water and never let the coco dry.

MickFoster said:

I would flush with a weak nutrient solution.........then start feeding twice a day to substantial run off with a pH around 6.0.
Lower your EC to around 1.0 to 1.5 at the most.
Never give plain water and never let the coco dry.

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Hi mick
Thx for your reply well I did all that gave them 2 weeks and nothing changed except I end up getting green algae on top of my coco ( 70/30 perlite mix) and that’s obviously a no go.
these plants are at least 8 weeks into veg and should be able to handle a Ec 1.6-1.8 no problem. I give my cuttings an Ec of 1 and I don’t have any issues getting 99% of my cuttings to take. Geez I even have a 85-90% strike rate on getting seeds to take.
the only thing I can think of and it’s a big big maybe but I use clean tap water for every feed ( mix up 25 litres at a time) to feed my larger plants but with my smaller babies I keep a separate 10 litre container that takes 4-5 days to empty I’ve been doing a bit of research and wondering if my problem is there’s too much Chlorine in my water and by sitting my water out for a few days evaporates the chlorine and so I’m not seeing the issue with my smaller plants? I’ve read large amounts of chlorine can lead to a number of issues similar to what I’m having but where I live we have some of the cleanest water in the world but it does have chlorine in it and we have been going through a drought so they are maybe adding more to keep the water clean because it’s older water as the dams haven’t been getting filled? Any thoughts because like I said earlier I’ve grown for 25+ years and have never lost a crop of course I’ve had issues but I’ve always been able to correct them but not this time.
I’m tempted to throw and start again but that’s seems silly because unless I identify the problem it’s most likely to just happen again so makes sense to experiment on my already struggling plants to see if something fixes the issue so I’ll take your advice and try what you say again but maybe just reduce the amount of watering so I don’t get my algae problem back and I think I’ll let the water sit for 24 hours ( is recommended anyway) before I mix my solution up.
I use a brand called floramax ( one of the best in Aus) and give base nutes + additives but only .25-.50 per litre of cal mag ( I grow under led so is needed) some people have suggest I give them to much but it’s like 50 % of recommended value from the maker so that’s not the problem. Something is stopping my plants from using the nutes properly but it’s not a lockout otherwise my PH and EC would be off the charts but my runoff is like 6.3 ph and Ec 1.6-1.8 which is what I’m putting in.
appreciate the feedback think I need a herbologists help but where I am might be a bit hard.
Cheers

30 ppm chlorinated tap water? Something ain't right. Either your meter is off or your understanding of your municipal water supply is off.

Beeswings said:

30 ppm chlorinated tap water? Something ain't right. Either your meter is off or your understanding of your municipal water supply is off.

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POSTIE said:

Update - I now think I’ve gotten a bad batch of coco perlite it should be between 5.5-6.5 but mine is reading 7.1 ( only a cheap soil ph tester though) so you may be correct best to just throw away grrr,

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Yep