Help Coco not Looking as Good as Soil

i planted 7 seeds in coco-perlite 50-50, and 2 in soil.

(mostly hindu kush, one or two Hailley's Comet). I hand water with RO water (5.8ph) and a bit of organic root juice by biobizz. no nutes so far.

it's only been one week.

the two in the soil look better than those in coco! they are greener and their leaves are more erect, and really slightly larger. all in all they look better and healthier.

so

at first i thought, maybe it's because despite their small size, they already lack a bit of nutes. perhaps i should start just one of them on 1/4 strength coco nutes and see what happens?

on second thought, it actually looks a bit like overwatering. but that's funny cuz it's only been a week, they had a bit of a drier period (not really dry but slightly dry) but they are getting water.

what's your opinion plz?? should i try oxygenating the water? i have an air pump, and also h2o2. or should I try using a bit of nutes? or should i just be patient and watch them grow? I have a feeling this gap will increase with time... it really is good soil, but once the plant starts flowering it will lose all its leaves very quickly, i think because of high ph (which i havent been able to mend in this soil, is why im using coco)

appreciate any advice

- coco
- soil

the ones in coc might have been overwatered. try using tap water instead of RO since it has some micro elements. another week at least before you feed them 1/4 strength.
when you flower in soil, and they lose all the leaves it's probably that you're under feeding them, thats why they lose leaves and flower small buds. don't use h2o2 in soil, or in organic growing. aerating the water will not hurt but i doubt it will help either in coco.
hope this helps,
Good Luck!

They're in rock wool... not just coco...

Depending on the quality of your coco you might have a cation exchange issue. The run off of Canna Coco (supposed high quality coco) comes off at around 2.0ec. The buffer of coco plays a huge roll in the first few days of the life of the roots and I find it is better to build the buffer myself. Personally, I like to wash my coco/mix until the run off is within 25% of my buffer solution. This ensures that the media is within a reasonable range of the mixture of elements found in my nutrient system.

One problem you have is that you have a cube that will dry out in hours sitting in a media that won't dry out for a few days. Weak root systems can be over watered in the media, even with all that perlite and the rock wool will go dry quick. I'm sure this isn't "good" for a plant though I'm not entirely sure how it may be bad, or more accurately, what the symptoms would be of the cause.

I suggest you use some RO water, no pH balancing, and get about 1 gallon of honest run off from each of the coco planters. Immediately afterwards drench them with another liter or so of coco nutrients. 2ml-3ml per gallon is fine. All you're really going for is the ratio. This will rebuild the buffer and ensure the coco CEC is back in a healthy state.

That rock wool cube for germination is totally unnecessary. Take a look at my current below in my sig below to see what I mean.

zem said:

the ones in coc might have been overwatered. try using tap water instead of RO since it has some micro elements. another week at least before you feed them 1/4 strength.
when you flower in soil, and they lose all the leaves it's probably that you're under feeding them, thats why they lose leaves and flower small buds. don't use h2o2 in soil, or in organic growing. aerating the water will not hurt but i doubt it will help either in coco.
hope this helps,
Good Luck!

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thanks, very helpful, +rep on that

i will try and give one or two of them some nutes as i've seen a lot of people do that. also gonna try and follow what they below said. keep you posted.

about the soil, there is a very drastic shift when they start to flowering and the bottom leaves start to yellow. I tend to think it's not that the N just runs out for them, but perhaps they are locked by some other mineral taking over, bad "cation exchange" (i've only a slight idea what that means), or pH that for some reason changes like that, or maybe just the demand by my plants that changes. either way, it's really sad to see really beautiful and super healthy vegged plant turn into some wilted claw leafed plant.

you're right about h2o2 i'll just aerate to see what happens, but i'm hoping more minerals in the water (my tap water is 700ppm so i won't use it but add some hesi coco in it) will help. anyway there will be controlled experimenting.

Snow Crash said:

They're in rock wool... not just coco...

Depending on the quality of your coco you might have a cation exchange issue. The run off of Canna Coco (supposed high quality coco) comes off at around 2.0ec. The buffer of coco plays a huge roll in the first few days of the life of the roots and I find it is better to build the buffer myself. Personally, I like to wash my coco/mix until the run off is within 25% of my buffer solution. This ensures that the media is within a reasonable range of the mixture of elements found in my nutrient system.

One problem you have is that you have a cube that will dry out in hours sitting in a media that won't dry out for a few days. Weak root systems can be over watered in the media, even with all that perlite and the rock wool will go dry quick. I'm sure this isn't "good" for a plant though I'm not entirely sure how it may be bad, or more accurately, what the symptoms would be of the cause.

I suggest you use some RO water, no pH balancing, and get about 1 gallon of honest run off from each of the coco planters. Immediately afterwards drench them with another liter or so of coco nutrients. 2ml-3ml per gallon is fine. All you're really going for is the ratio. This will rebuild the buffer and ensure the coco CEC is back in a healthy state.

That rock wool cube for germination is totally unnecessary. Take a look at my current below in my sig below to see what I mean.

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Rep to you too man. However i am having a bit of trouble understanding, please bear.

You're right that the rockwool and the coco that's above it dry up super fast. I had one seed die because of this. I thought water was supposed to wick into it, but it doesnt. On the other hand, I was also hoping that being dry in the rockwool would send the roots down quicker in search of. I guess by now they should be rooted enough no? (It's been exactly 7 days since they rose above the rockwool and were planted in the soil)

The runoff of my coco is 1150ppm yesterday when i checked. I'm not sure how it relates to the ec datum you gave. And i must say that whenever people say the word 'buffer' i immediately lose them. Maybe it's the language - all i know about this word is that buffer is what you have to separate things from each other, like in a file cabinet or something. I have no idea what it means in terms of grow media, ppm and ph, and would love to be enlightened (even with a link. it's hard for me to look because of the language).

also not sure about CEC - I understand that there is some tension between the EC of the medium and that of the root - if the soil has too much more negative charge than the root it has trouble attaining the minerals it needs, or something like that. Is this what you meant? Or perhaps the other way around? I think you meant the exchange between the medium and the feeding solution? This could also be important to make the medium or the root take the minerals from the water/solution?

I didn't want to use the rockwool, but my attempts to germinate directly in the coco mix were very futile, most just hatched from their seed and then died before reaching the air. don't know why (they were kept moist), but i guess i would have been wise to be alarmed by this and forget about the coco. But surely there is a way to mend.

So practical steps? Flush the soil with a gallon, then with some nutes? 200-300ppm? Hesi coco is good right?

This is quite reasonable, I think I'm gonna go for it, if only for a couple of plants for control.

Many thanks, would love to learn more from you.

Edit, 18 hours later: I did as said on one plant, so far no improvement, looking slightly more wilting. Now is nap time for them, i hope to see better results in their tomorrow.

they did suffer some dry points early after hatching above ground and transplanted into the coco. could this be stress?

I have never gone rockwool into coco but I germ in a paper towel then use a ready grow plug, i don't put into coco till the roots are hanging out the rooter plug like half an inch. Try diluting your tap wayer to about 200 ppm with ro water. That amt of dissolved solids and the"food" the seed is born with should be enough for 2 weeks, maybe more. I don't give the first feeding till at least 2 weeks and sometimes longer.

Even if the coco plants are behind now I'm sure they will pass the soil plants. Coco is so much more aerated it just blows soil away so I rly wouldn't worry about them being a little behind, as long as they don't look sick.

TheLastWood said:

I have never gone rockwool into coco but I germ in a paper towel then use a ready grow plug, i don't put into coco till the roots are hanging out the rooter plug like half an inch. Try diluting your tap wayer to about 200 ppm with ro water. That amt of dissolved solids and the"food" the seed is born with should be enough for 2 weeks, maybe more. I don't give the first feeding till at least 2 weeks and sometimes longer.

Even if the coco plants are behind now I'm sure they will pass the soil plants. Coco is so much more aerated it just blows soil away so I rly wouldn't worry about them being a little behind, as long as they don't look sick.

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thanks a lot. they just started a new day, day 7-8 of seedling. three of them, coco, are quite behind with the first sharp (not cotyl.) leaves still quite small and not developing second leaves yet. they are looking pale, and their leaves are bent down (wilting). four other cocos are looking better than that, with those wings a bit bigger and stronger and a spring of new growth emerging. the two that were planted in the soil at the same time look better, very healthy and green, like all other plants i've grown in this soil.

so the other day I germinated and then last night planted three more seedlings into soil, just in case I guess. I hope to God you're right about the coco, cuz I'm totally counting on it for this grow (7 out of 12 well maybe not totally but dearly) - I really want it to work.

I must ask you though: wouldn't it be better if those 200ppm are HESI coco nutes? why would I rather use the minerals in the tap water, when I don't even know what they are?

anyway last night I gave on of them 220ppm of the HESI, it don't seem to be burnt today, but I'm gonna give it a couple of days to see how this works and then if it's good I'll gradually start on the others.

I'm also gonna try giving them aerated water.

the one who got aerated water today did not like it one bit - seems to have drowned. I'll try and reduce the watering now. perhaps also cover some of the plants with hydroton on top to reduce evaporation?

the one who got 220ppm of coco nutes last night seems to be a bit better.
if all is good, tomorrow I will give it also to another plant.

Just because 200 ppm is like the maximum ppm tap water I would use and its still not adding nutes but you are giving them some sort of "food"

TheLastWood said:

Just because 200 ppm is like the maximum ppm tap water I would use and its still not adding nutes but you are giving them some sort of "food"

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i see. but it sounds more like a gut feeling. I cannot think of a logical reason not to replace those 200ppm of unknown minerals (mostly scale) with a balanced and well known coco formula.

asaph said:

i see. but it sounds more like a gut feeling. I cannot think of a logical reason not to replace those 200ppm of unknown minerals (mostly scale) with a balanced and well known coco formula.

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then again, if it is good - who am I to judge. I will try it with one plant.

i use aerated water, but my tap comes out at 300 ppm and is aerated after that point in a large reservoir for at least a day before use. I actually was just experimenting with coco myself. heres my results if you dont mind my interjection.

steverthebeaver81 said:

i use aerated water, but my tap comes out at 300 ppm and is aerated after that point in a large reservoir for at least a day before use. I actually was just experimenting with coco myself. heres my results if you dont mind my interjection.
View attachment 1488423

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looks great! what was the composition of the right hand side medium?

aerated RO water was not working for me. but maybe it had a low ph, i'm not sure. that red digital PH meter is SO inaccurate.

Im just usin aerated tap water. The first one is planted in just happy frog soil, the second in happy frog and coco coir that had soaked in a small amount of humic acid for 20 minutes, and the third had probably a 50/50 mix of coco coir and happy frog. The humic drench one was prolly a 25/75 mix coco coir/happy frog.

above: coco vs. soil. same strain, planted on the same day.


better shot

new pics above

asaph said:

View attachment 1491405
above: coco vs. soil. same strain, planted on the same day.

View attachment 1491421
better shot

new pics above

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should anyone want to know how to solve this problem, i recommend reading an excellent thread and listen to the tips there: http://forum.grasscity.com/coco-coir/747414-problem-seedling-coco-input-needed.html

I read the thread. I didn't see anything that resembled a resolution. Just a bunch of new coco growers tossing around ideas and hearsay. One of the guys even said to leave Canna Coco alone, no flushing. The laughable thing about that is Canna Coco run off is about 2.0ec for the first 2 or so gallons that come off of it. They claim the pre-charge is important... but I don't feed my plants a 2.0ec for the entire grow... why would they need it as fresh sprouts?

Always rinse your coco with a gentle coco specific nutrient 1-2ml per gallon for a few hundred ppm. Use this low strength solution to create the buffer charge the coco needs and to establish a starting coco EC that is beneath 1.0.

Seedlings in coco is SUPER easy when you know what you're doing. Only one way to really learn though, through practice. Wait until you're running 40 seedlings at a time and handling over 100 seed starts a year. Honestly, I think the most difficult time of life for a plant is not during the seedling stage but at the flowering transition.

In the future, if you don't want this problem, then start your seeds right in the coco rather than putting them in a rock wool cube.

Snow Crash said:

I read the thread. I didn't see anything that resembled a resolution. Just a bunch of new coco growers tossing around ideas and hearsay. One of the guys even said to leave Canna Coco alone, no flushing. The laughable thing about that is Canna Coco run off is about 2.0ec for the first 2 or so gallons that come off of it. They claim the pre-charge is important... but I don't feed my plants a 2.0ec for the entire grow... why would they need it as fresh sprouts?

Always rinse your coco with a gentle coco specific nutrient 1-2ml per gallon for a few hundred ppm. Use this low strength solution to create the buffer charge the coco needs and to establish a starting coco EC that is beneath 1.0.

Seedlings in coco is SUPER easy when you know what you're doing. Only one way to really learn though, through practice. Wait until you're running 40 seedlings at a time and handling over 100 seed starts a year. Honestly, I think the most difficult time of life for a plant is not during the seedling stage but at the flowering transition.

In the future, if you don't want this problem, then start your seeds right in the coco rather than putting them in a rock wool cube.

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thank you mate!

(i don't use canna coco though. my runoff EC is about 1200 uS (is that EC or ppm? i can't get this straight - I have an EC meter by HM and this is the unit it measures, micro-S something) (I have also read that measuring runoff is meaningless and one should sample some medium in 1:5 water, which will give a better indication of EC and pH)

my thoughts:
before reading this thread, i had noticed that giving nutes to the plants was causing a slight improvement. right now they are getting 300-600 ppm and are starting to look like normal plants again, growing. for me, this is a solution (giving nutes to the plants at seedling stage. this is not granted of course, as most people advise against it. but i have learnt from experience that it's a must in coco). this is what is (mostly) said in the thread, and the thread starter was suffering from exactly the same problem as me. So this issue of nutes is hopefully resolved for me, except I still can't figure out exactly what dosage is needed to keep the plants growing while not burning them, from that thread it seems to be a rather gentle balance that should be maintained which might not be so easy as you said. if you can help out with that it would be swell - but know that I only have the HESI coco ferts, and not the other recommended ferts from the series (rhyzotonic, tnt etc) (I do have some organic bio bizz ferts, roots and micros/enzymes)

Now that I have a better idea about the nutes, I guess it will be easier for me to seed in the coco, but i found it to be very hard as a starting point with not much reliable info on it (based on my experience, saying that seeds don't need nutes for 2 weeks has turned out to be unreliable). the seeds i put in the soil with the R/W just popped and grew and i haven't even watered them since. nevertheless, I placed a bet with a friend last night, my side says I'm gonna get more yield eventually from coco than from soil. interesting to see how it will turn out.

about the rinsing - I still don't know actually. I had problems with water when i planted and i couldn't flush the media well - and now i regret that, but I still can't say i've noticed an indication that there is something that needs to be washed away. can you tell me how to tell that? I am watering thoroughly with much runoff though, and quite often - not sure about that either but like I said it seems I am uphill at the moment.

also i have mentioned before - when I tried to germinate straight in the coco - they just died right away during groundbreaking. I think this is because of the coco being barren and all. I don't know if I will be germinating in the future (probably I will), but before that I will experiment with my inexpensive seeds to see what the best way about it is.

I did have a last germed seed two days ago - this time I put it in a small cup pot of soil - and I intend to transplant it into coco when it grows. I read someone who said it worked for him. what do you think about it?

i'd love to hear more thoughts from you and everyone else. Also - is my English really bad? can you understand me at all?

cheers everyone

asaph said:

I am watering thoroughly with much runoff though, and quite often - not sure about that either but like I said it seems I am uphill at the moment.

also i have mentioned before - when I tried to germinate straight in the coco - they just died right away during groundbreaking. I think this is because of the coco being barren and all. I don't know if I will be germinating in the future (probably I will), but before that I will experiment with my inexpensive seeds to see what the best way about it is.

I did have a last germed seed two days ago - this time I put it in a small cup pot of soil - and I intend to transplant it into coco when it grows. I read someone who said it worked for him. what do you think about it?

i'd love to hear more thoughts from you and everyone else. Also - is my English really bad? can you understand me at all?

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The coco isn't going to be totally barren but you never want to use plain water in coco. Always use at least a drop or two of coco specific nutrients to ensure the ratio of elements maintained after a good rinsing is in the proper balance. I am 56/57 starting seeds in coco and have never lost a seedling to nutritional issues in coco. I think the stuff is dead simple. Check out my current grow thread, there is a link in my signature at the bottom. I detail my process starting seedlings.

I know nothing about Hesi nutes. Sorry.

Find a system that works for you. If you want organics, go organic, if you want hydro, go hydro. I'm actually doing a kind of reverse situation where I start my seeds in pure coco and transplant to a coco/organics mixture. I'm sure it will be okay. Botanicare actually has a formula, CNS 17, that is used for both soil and coco.

I can understand you pretty well. Sadly, most English speakers are fairly poor writers. Worse when in an online forum community. You do a fine job communicating in a second language.

Coco is pretty easy. Seedlings are pretty hands off. In all, most people just make it more difficult than it really is. There are a lot of guides around but the information can get really convoluted because many different methods are effective. My approach to young plants is to give them plenty of soft florescent light, 5000K color temperature and up, and to allow the media to go from saturated to dry a few times.

The solution I use for seedlings is low strength, beneath 500ppm for certain and closer to 200ppm or my equivalent 400 uS/cm. EC and uS/cm are the same thing, in the same way ppm and percentage are the same thing. Percentages are 1/100. PPM is 1/1,000,000. To change your uS/cm into EC just divide by 1,000 (put a decimal here -> x.xxx). It is very important to keep the CEC of the coco balanced. If there is an electrical imbalance based on an element deficiency of the media then nutrients can be leached from the seedling to achieve equilibrium.

You are trying to create a harmony and a bond of roots with media. If the seeding has a high concentration of nutrition, while the media does not have an equal charge, then the nutrition can flow from the plant into the media in order to find harmony. Maintaining the balance and elemental harmonization in coco is arguably the most difficult part of using the media hydroponically.