Observations on the Hermie Issue of Feminized Seeds

Okay, so... I've been watching the threads and reading up on the topics of hermies, plant stress, and feminization. After having bred fancy rats for a few years, I'm starting to see a few parallels and wonder if there might be something similar going on here. I'll explain:

Fancies are extremely tolerant to inbreeding at a genetic level. It has been scientifically verified that they can be inbred for up to 40 generations before significant issues begin to emerge, and they are routinely inbred to 20 generations in experimental research applications (transplant and organ cloning research being highly dependent upon compatible tissue samples make rats priceless to these kinds of research).

In my experiences, I learned that fancies have a hereditary respiratory condition that seems to limit their lifespan. Rats with a stronger resistance to this illness can live up to 4 years or more, while their less fortunate counterparts live only around 2 years. The resistance can be manipulated through genetics, and thus, by breeding the healthiest rats, you can maintain lines that live far in excess of what is commonly expected. You get a pup or two out of the litter who has the sniffles more often, but all in all, the litter is of better health than those who are of weaker genetic stock.

Here's where the parallel lies. I got about 1 pup in 4 that had varying degrees of lessened resistance to the illness. That's very significant when you take the hereditary trait of hermaphroditism and place it into the context of the respiratory disorder, and it also explains the presence of strains that don't seem to suffer from feminization, yet others seem to display the trait, but with far less frequency.

For those who have trouble following, I'll break it down a little further:
If we treat the herm trait as if it behaves like my rat respiratory disorder, then we should see a significant variance in the frequency of the presentation of symptoms. The reason for this is that there seem to be two triggers in the genetic makeup of the trait. One trigger reduces the frequency of the presentation while the other increases it. Inbreeding is an extremely valuable tool because it allows us to see which side of the trait we have, the reduction or the increase of the problem through a self cross.

Because, with cannabis, we deal with hundreds and thousands of offspring... the ratio I put forward exacerbates the problem due to the fact that there is no way to tell what seeds have what stress tolerance without germination. After all, 1 in 4 means that 1000 out of 4000 seeds will have a negative result of our efforts, and even the slightest reduction in tolerance could mean the difference between herming during stress, or remaining strong through the entire episode.

So, to me, it seems that the problem with feminized seed is not in the process of feminization itself, it's that a genetic trait of a plant is being brought to light through inbreeding. After all, most of these strains come into the market as clone-only at first. That tells me that someone, somewhere, has forced a herming episode on a plant in order to get seeds. That's the first backcross. Now, sell some of the seeds, that may be perfectly healthy but have lost some resistance to hermaphroditism, and you have a plant that you'll never know carries a problem. The next generation comes along after the last batch of seeds are gone because more seeds need to be produced... another reduction... could still be without visible weakening, yet, the damage is still done.

How long does it take to breed hermaphroditism out of a plant? How many of us really know that detail?

We go around condemning some breeders for having this pop up and they're right to do so, but I see so few people who realize that it's genetics, not feminization itself that is causing this problem.

It's like blaming the hammer for bending the nail when you weren't holding the hammer correctly to begin with.

How are so many of us missing this, only to condemn one of the most valuable tools of our trade in the process?

I know I probably butchered this because it's almost 4am here, but I think I got the point across without too much confusion. I look forward to your comments and questions.

you charge that much for a seed, you damn well best deliver....

that said, 9/10ths of the problem to me, is that those foul tempered hobgoblin feminized plants are meant for expert growers....
they require perfect control to be successful...start to finish....
you need that alone to draw any meaningful comparison, aside from direct personal experience

...aaaand who's growing them and generally bitching?
peeps with years of grows under their belts set in their ways on how a 'proper' grow goes at best....rarely...
or wide doe eyed newbs with a franklin burning a hole in their pocket....usually...
and a smattering of experimental growers growing several strains under the same damn light...

meanwhile the guru growers...they chuckle and go back to cloning their mothers....something there to learn i think...

i admit my world view is a bit twisted...

QUOTE: ChubbySoap
you charge that much for a seed, you damn well best deliver....

This I agree with 100%. I actually misspoke there. When I said "They're right to do so", I actually meant WE. Part of the anticipated butchering, I'm afraid. But yes, I expect to get what I paid for.

that said, 9/10ths of the problem to me, is that those foul tempered hobgoblin feminized plants are meant for expert growers....
they require perfect control to be successful...start to finish....
you need that alone to draw any meaningful comparison, aside from direct personal experience

This part I have to disagree on. The hermie problem with Fem seeds is not an epidemic level problem, as it would need to be to support the view that feminized plants are foul tempered hobgoblins. Sure, the more unruly strains should be pulled from sale till they can be stabilized, but this goes back to breeder responsibility, not a bad technique. It's a simple matter to refine the plant through further back crosses to strengthen a line and weed out the weaker genetics. This is part of what I don't get. Why do we continue to vilify a process that is showing us flaws in genetics that we do not even realize are there?

...aaaand who's growing them and generally bitching?
peeps with years of grows under their belts set in their ways on how a 'proper' grow goes at best....rarely...

Because they know the problem to be genetic in origin. I've seen it said before. Didn't understand at first, but after comparing it to my rats, I agree with those vet growers 100%. It's not the feminization process, it's the genetics of the plant.

or wide doe eyed newbs with a franklin burning a hole in their pocket....usually...

Yet some of the newbs can barely grow lawn covering, yet manage to cultivate femmed seeds without a single herm. A flawed process would not allow this, as it would cause ALL fruits of the labor to show this trait if it were directly linked to stress itself. Faulty or incomplete genetic refinement explains the situation perfectly, and accounts for all the known variances in the complaints and accolades for Femmed seeds.

and a smattering of experimental growers growing several strains under the same damn light...

Sorry, but I fail to see how growing multiple strains under the same light is a problem, much less how it is related to what either You or I have said.

meanwhile the guru growers...they chuckle and go back to cloning their mothers....something there to learn i think...

While cloning plants has the ability to produce an exact copy of an existing plant, the genetics remain unchanged. Aside from that, it doesn't take a guru to clone a plant like cannabis. The gurus are the ones who know how to grow shit blindfolded and hogtied. Still... how does cloning relate to a discussion of faulty genetics?

i admit my world view is a bit twisted...

Everyone has the right to be cynical. I know I am.

I am trying to understand, so correct me if I am wrong.

You buy a pack of fem seeds, and lets say the strain or phenotype isn't stable. That just raises the likeliness that when and if I cause stress to the plant it will hermie? And the solution for this would be to just keep back crossing(hermy-ing for seeds?)? To me, that seems like it would just introduce more hermy traits into the new seedling.

I am not getting this somewhere I don't think. I am really determined to become a breeder after I get some grows under my belt

Peace & Pot Errbody <3

Correct me too, I want to be on the same page.

Is it like;

Hermie Mother.
F1 1* Fem 2* Fem 3* 1Male/100Fem Flowers 4* 50%Fem/50%Male
#1 F2 *Fem *Fem *Fem *1Male/100Fem Flowers
#2 F2 *Fem *1Male/100Fem Flowers *Fem *Fem
#3 F2 *Fem *1Male/100Fem Flowers *50%Fem/50%Male *1Male/100Fem Flowers
#4 F2 *Fem *1Male/100Fem Flowers *50%Fem/50%Male *50%Fem/50%Male

#1(1,2,3) F3 *Fem *Fem *Fem *Fem
#2(1,3,4) F3 *Fem *Fem *Fem *Fem
#3 F3 *1Male/100Fem Flowers *1Male/100Fem Flowers *1Male/100Fem Flowers *50%Male/50%Fem
#4 F4 *50% *50% *50% *1Male/100Fem Flowers

Right?

Haha after I posted this I realized I was almost to stoned to understand what I wrote.
It looks so sloppy sorry.

Not even stoned and I don't understand it. Why would you want to breed a fem strain anyways?

That sounds rude, I promise it is not, I am just curious.

I think that when you take a hermie and stabilize its strain for several generations, while culling out unwanted genetics (hermies, and their mothers.) then you could eventually wind up with an all fem strain that has little or no hermie traits left genetically.

But this is how my brains seeing all this. It would take personal experience to understand it fully.

C.Indica said:

I think that when you take a hermie and stabilize its strain for several generations, while culling out unwanted genetics (hermies, and their mothers.) then you could eventually wind up with an all fem strain that has little or no hermie traits left genetically.

But this is how my brains seeing all this. It would take personal experience to understand it fully.

Click to expand...

My understanding is that you can't breed a feminized plant with a male and still get feminized seeds. That is why I am confused, because I read that the only way to get feminized seeds is to hermie the plant. So when you try to pollenate with a male, the offspring isn't stable and you have a higher chance of hermies.

The only way to stableize (Spell Check please lol) is to keep breeding with male plants, which in that case you might as well have bought the regular version of the seed. Non feminized.

Again, this is just little bits and pieces of what I have read, so if anyone has more info or knows that I am wrong please feel free to chime in. Knowledge is power and all.

Peace & Pot Errbody <3

Sorry for taking so long to reply. I haven't forgotten the post and I'm not ignoring the questions. Got a few things to take care of and I'll be back. Bear with me please.

Take your time, I can't even get my first few plants to grow! I have all the time in the world to learn about breeding!

Ok, I'm gonna try to answer your questions all in one go, as they are posted.

Edit: Got it corrected now.

Bear in mind that I am drawing rough correlations between my knowledge of rats, and what I am seeing in reports here on the internet throughout forums. NONE of this is from verified experience in my own grows. I'm on my first as well. This is a THEORY on why we see this, and my musings on why people continue to demonize feminization when it seems to me that the problem is genetic in origin, as SOME vet growers do claim.

You buy a pack of fem seeds, and lets say the strain or phenotype isn't stable. That just raises the likeliness that when and if I cause stress to the plant it will hermie?

Click to expand...

If the stability you refer to is the hermaphrodite trait, then yes. Remember that other traits can exibit this behavior as well, and can vary. For instance... potency. Look at how broad a range potency has. Linebreeding is very structured, and we select the best representatives according to the priority we set for our line.

And the solution for this would be to just keep back crossing(hermy-ing for seeds?)? To me, that seems like it would just introduce more hermy traits into the new seedling.

Click to expand...

I believe I misspoke again. I apologize. It seems I represented back crossing as the ONLY tool for fixing this. While it is A tool, and an EFFECTIVE one... especially in a diagnostic context, it is NOT the ONLY tool we have. And YES, it CAN introduce more hermie traits. That's what makes it a great tool. By creating the purest self cross allowable without lab manipulation on a cellular level, we can find out just exactly WHAT is in the strain we're breeding. From there, we can pick out what we like best and try to breed those into future lines using ALL of the breeding techniques at our disposal... including femming a clone and doing a back cross not only to check the progress of our line, but to strengthen traits through direct reinforcement by an identical set of genes and chromosomes. Remember, if something is recessive, you're guaranteed to see it somewhere in the seeds from such a cross because you are guaranteed to have a pair from both parents going into the mix. This is how it can be used diagnostically. If you have a negative genetic trait... you WILL see it somewhere in that batch of femmed seeds. The benefits of the technique in strengthening desirable traits are no different than other breeding methods. The difference is that this is simply the most extreme form of inbreeding without laboratory intervention on a cellular level.

Correct me too, I want to be on the same page.

Is it like;

Hermie Mother.
F1 1* Fem 2* Fem 3* 1Male/100Fem Flowers 4* 50%Fem/50%Male
#1 F2 *Fem *Fem *Fem *1Male/100Fem Flowers
#2 F2 *Fem *1Male/100Fem Flowers *Fem *Fem
#3 F2 *Fem *1Male/100Fem Flowers *50%Fem/50%Male *1Male/100Fem Flowers
#4 F2 *Fem *1Male/100Fem Flowers *50%Fem/50%Male *50%Fem/50%Male

#1(1,2,3) F3 *Fem *Fem *Fem *Fem
#2(1,3,4) F3 *Fem *Fem *Fem *Fem
#3 F3 *1Male/100Fem Flowers *1Male/100Fem Flowers *1Male/100Fem Flowers *50%Male/50%Fem
#4 F4 *50% *50% *50% *1Male/100Fem Flowers

Click to expand...

I'm horrible at reading those diagrams. I think you're right, though. If you could put that in ratios, I think it would be clearer.

Why would you want to breed a fem strain anyways?

Click to expand...

Good question. It's simple... you breed the fem strain to check on the progress of the work you're doing. If you're close to finishing, you can do a fem back-X in order to refine the plant without using an outcross (even if the male being used is a related plant). The reason you'd want to be able to avoid an external male is simple: If you're close to getting the plant right, and you add a male's genetics, you introduce a set of genes and chromosomes that could be varied enough to throw your entire project off course.

It's important to note here that I'm not trying turn feminization into holy ground. I'm just trying to bring the fact that it is a valid and valuable tool, to light. I have never believed, nor am I attempting to portray feminization as a cure-all. You don't pull out your 7/16 socket for every single engine job, but that doesn't make it a useless tool when the time arises. Like anything else, you can't use it as a crutch, but it's always there when you need it.

I think that when you take a hermie and stabilize its strain for several generations, while culling out unwanted genetics (hermies, and their mothers.) then you could eventually wind up with an all fem strain that has little or no hermie traits left genetically.

But this is how my brains seeing all this. It would take personal experience to understand it fully.

Click to expand...

This is precisely what I'm getting at. Feminization isn't the problem, it's a TOOL that is showing us the REAL problem... faulty genetics. Can't forget, some of these phenotypes we're seeing haven't been touched. They've been overlooked in favor of better ones. We THINK we've bred them out of the higher strains, but herming after feminization tells me that we've not done our work as thoroughly as we COULD have, perhaps even SHOULD have.

Do I, personally, think we could end up with an all fem strain? Dunno, but I would LOVE to see the results of the experiment. Even if it turns out to be unworkable, the information gained about the hermie trait and the feminization process would be priceless.

My understanding is that you can't breed a feminized plant with a male and still get feminized seeds.

Click to expand...

That's my understanding too. This is a hindrance to the commercial growers and seedbanks, not to breeders. A breeder should be able to work with this fairly easily. By feminizing two clones instead of one, you can get two batches of pollen and work with various "self" crosses, and find the best one and let nature continue her work without our interference through feminization.

That is why I am confused, because I read that the only way to get feminized seeds is to hermie the plant. So when you try to pollenate with a male, the offspring isn't stable and you have a higher chance of hermies.

The only way to stableize (Spell Check please lol) is to keep breeding with male plants, which in that case you might as well have bought the regular version of the seed. Non feminized.

Click to expand...

This is one of the fuzzy areas in my knowledge of cannabis genetics, and the reason I made this post. I'd love to see some of the vets in here with their experience in cannabis breeding, discussing this with us.

It just seems to me that if feminization were so detrimental through hormone imbalances (the main quoted cause of herming in femmed plants), that we would see such an epidemic of herming that femmed plants would be drummed out of the market to a worldwide chorus of jeers. This technique doesn't produce those kinds of results. Am I 100% certain that hormones do NOT play a role... absolutely not, but am I convinced that the process of feminization is the root of the problem... again... absolutely not. There's just too much variance, and if a plant can be bred to be resistant to stress and therefore... herming, then like it has been said above... we should see plants that are almost immune to stress. The wonderful thing about it is that WE DO! Like I said in my first response... some people can't even grow lawn covering, yet they germinate fem seeds on their first grow, make ALL the newbie mistakes, and STILL DO NOT HAVE HERMS. Seems like one hell of a genetically sound plant to me. Doesn't it to you?

simply allow your plants to grow longer than needed (overripe) and when she grows the little bananas, pluck em off and use the pollen inside that on a female bud (inbred (IBL) encourages lots of different phenos that you wouldnt normally imagine) and every seed will be fem. your new seeds will not be stable but you will find some real gems.

Right, and the gems CAN be stabilized through selective breeding. That's what I'm talking about. Forcing herm only accelerates the process. I see no difference between forced herms and overripe herms. The trick is to use that pollen to backcross with a clone of the same plant. This way, you can see exactly what traits are in the master plant, and what you need to do with it, and look out for while you're developing the hypothetical strain.

i have no reason to stabilize or put in seed. i find a winner and its clone only. if i lose it then i can go back to someone i gave it to. but i can see why you or others want to stabilize.

and if you do it the way i mentioned none should hermie, considering you start off with good stablestrain.

Didn't we rule out F1 strains? Or was that another thread? I guess any f1 has to many different pheno possibilities and only a f3-4+ would be a stable strain. I am high so if I am wrong just lemme know. Packin another bowl and watchin Insidious.

Peace & Pot Errbody <3

Different thread.

Please elaborate on overripe herms

Overrripe herms is where you leave enough of the flowering plant that it can continue to survive after harvest. If you let them grow long enough, they'll herm as a natural, last-chance mechanism to reproduce.

I'm not the most well-versed person on the subject, but I believe that is it in a nutshell.

noyoudont wanna harvest,they shoot out the bananas just late into flower. just harvest late. its not hermie at all. the reason that it produces fem is because there is no male involved. no male pollen. female pollenand female bud. its not hermieing into femalepollen,yasee?