Organic pH up and Down

Overgrowtho

Overgrowtho

Well-Known Member
Like an newb, I've been using a bit of (most likely) INorganic hydroponic pH up and down to adjust the water in my newbie indoor organic soil grow.

Bad idea, I now know that can hurt the microbiology and nutrient uptake.

So, it is better to use organic pH up and down.... what are my options?

I've read citric acid for pH down.
Or fine dolomite lime powder for pH up.
These should be easy enough for me.
Sound okay?

I know organic soil is supposed to regulate itself. However I've been having problems with nutrient lockout (and nute burn) on seedlings, many of which died on my newbie project.

I'm sure I need to get the watering/fertigation pH right, and NOT introduce inorganic chemicals!

Another question:

Generally should I use my RO water, (not potable) tap water, or rain water?
I have been using rain water (here it is around 7 pH which is high for rain water! but as is the RO and Tap water) or RO water.
I was reading that RO and Rain water might not be good since they could flush all nutrients from medium?
 

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Yeah bro, I'm plagued. These are the worst of the lot tho. How fucked am I?
I didn't realize about the whole "hot soil" problem and now have been scrambling to get my medium, nutes and ph dialed in. I'm shooting for store bought seed starter soil, ph 6 to 6.5 and no feeding unless they have passed a couple of weeks, then 400 PPM organic nutrients or move directly to super soil which has been layered below less strong soil/medium. Am I trippin'?
 

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That is why I am asking above questions, to fill in a few blanks of that re-assessment/plan.
Much appreciated if anyone can point me in the right direction :wall:
 
You see, I am overseas in Asia. I dont have access to all the awesome soil and nutes there in the USA or Europe, so I need to experiment.

Before I had done some super soil and home-made mixes. Now I am testing a few different gentle soils for starting plants.

Those ones in the photos are now in a mix of 40% vermiculite 40% peat and 20% worm castings. I am feeding with a general liquid organic fertilizer recently of 3 parts, that is made from fish and plants. At about 400 PPM.

This is late in the effort to fix these, meaning I earlier had different mediums that I made or bought which weren't working well (super soil, or mix of super soil with top soil and fillers) and no additional nutes.

I was hoping that the medium and feeding are now sorted, which is why I was asking about the ph Up/Down organic recommendation and water question.

I've ordered a few more varieties of seed starter soils that I will experiment with over the next weeks to see what is working best. I also have another (albeit similar) organic liquid fert coming on the way to try out.
 
I went through a period where I really wanted to go 100% organic with everything, but the "organic" ph down options aren't great. Vinegar and citric acid just don't hold the ph as stable for as long as phosphoric acid. Since you're having some issues getting started, I'd get back to the basics, use what's tried and true until you're growing beautiful plants, then try new things out. What medium and nutes do you intend to use? I love 100% coco coir, and recommend starting with a prewashed/buffered bagged brand for your first grow, so you know what good coco should be like. You can still go mostly organic with coco, there are many good nutrients out there. I think you had problems with overfeeding and maybe overwatering. Fill up an extra pot identical to what you are growing in with dry medium, then compare the weight to the pots your seedlings are in so you know when to water. Seedlings don't need much nutes in organic soil until they're 3 weeks old, and always start with 1/4 strength nutes. For nutes I really like Blue Planet Farmer's Pride line for coco....and for my actual tomatoes growing in my outdoor garden in soil-really good prices for quality nutrients. Don't worry, you just need to do a little less of everything, water, feed, etc, I think you loved your seedlings to death.
ruru
 
When I start with new/hot soil I do not ph. Anytime I have I burnt my seedlings. Most new soil has buffers and you don’t need to ph.
 
Last edited:
Wattzzup said:
When I start with new/hot soil I do not ph. Anytime I have I burnt my seedlings. Most new soil had buffers and you don’t need to ph.
Click to expand...
Whether to ph or not entirely depends on your water, but if you're growing in soil it doesn't matter quite so much unless the water you're starting with is very hard.
 
Rurumo said:
I went through a period where I really wanted to go 100% organic with everything, but the "organic" ph down options aren't great. Vinegar and citric acid just don't hold the ph as stable for as long as phosphoric acid. Since you're having some issues getting started, I'd get back to the basics, use what's tried and true until you're growing beautiful plants, then try new things out. What medium and nutes do you intend to use? I love 100% coco coir, and recommend starting with a prewashed/buffered bagged brand for your first grow, so you know what good coco should be like. You can still go mostly organic with coco, there are many good nutrients out there. I think you had problems with overfeeding and maybe overwatering. Fill up an extra pot identical to what you are growing in with dry medium, then compare the weight to the pots your seedlings are in so you know when to water. Seedlings don't need much nutes in organic soil until they're 3 weeks old, and always start with 1/4 strength nutes. For nutes I really like Blue Planet Farmer's Pride line for coco....and for my actual tomatoes growing in my outdoor garden in soil-really good prices for quality nutrients. Don't worry, you just need to do a little less of everything, water, feed, etc, I think you loved your seedlings to death.
ruru
Click to expand...

Sounds great bro, but I am in the middle of Asia without access to all the perfect stuff you have access to. This is why I am still searching around trying to figure our what works and improve my thumb with it. My RO and Rain water is a bit too high on the pH scale so I do need to bring it down somehow. I've ordered some citric acid. I was looking for advise as to whether that should work okay as the best option (for organics).
 
Overgrowtho said:
Like an newb, I've been using a bit of (most likely) INorganic hydroponic pH up and down to adjust the water in my newbie indoor organic soil grow.

Bad idea, I now know that can hurt the microbiology and nutrient uptake.

So, it is better to use organic pH up and down.... what are my options?

I've read citric acid for pH down.
Or fine dolomite lime powder for pH up.
These should be easy enough for me.
Sound okay?

I know organic soil is supposed to regulate itself. However I've been having problems with nutrient lockout (and nute burn) on seedlings, many of which died on my newbie project.

I'm sure I need to get the watering/fertigation pH right, and NOT introduce inorganic chemicals!

Another question:

Generally should I use my RO water, (not potable) tap water, or rain water?
I have been using rain water (here it is around 7 pH which is high for rain water! but as is the RO and Tap water) or RO water.
I was reading that RO and Rain water might not be good since they could flush all nutrients from medium?
Click to expand...
I was using a little citric acid to bring the ph down on my tap water. Honestly those plants look really wet, they shouldn't need watered that often when they are very small, honestly i was thinking the same idea that you are, i wanted to go fully organic, but after reading up, i realized that i didn't know enough or have the experience yet. And also if you are using super soil then you will not need to ph from what ive read and been told by the fine gentlemen here at RIU the dolomite and other things you add to the soil buffer everything. Look into soil buffers that you can add that are available in your area if you arent happy with the citric acid and vinger works too for ph up... . Make sure the soil is fully dry before you water, i always stick my finger into see that its dry under the surface . Goodluck
 
Overgrowtho said:
40% vermiculite 40% peat and 20% worm castings. I am feeding with a general liquid organic fertilizer recently of 3 parts, that is made from fish and plants. At about 400 PPM.
Click to expand...

That's a terrible mix. Too much vermiculite. Vermiculite holds water and your plants roots are drowning. That's just one issue.
 
xtsho said:
That's a terrible mix. Too much vermiculite. Vermiculite holds water and your plants roots are drowning. That's just one issue.
Click to expand...

Yup I had chatted with people on RIU about this and at least one guy said it was good, well I'm having second thoughts on this medium yet again. However I was pretty confident about it since that was loosely based on the Dr. Bruce Bugbee formula.

I'm planning to stop using my home made mediums all together and just go with some store-bought stuff specifically for starting or acceptable for starting. I've got 2 being tested now and another 1 on the way.
 
Overgrowtho said:
Sounds great bro, but I am in the middle of Asia without access to all the perfect stuff you have access to. This is why I am still searching around trying to figure our what works and improve my thumb with it. My RO and Rain water is a bit too high on the pH scale so I do need to bring it down somehow. I've ordered some citric acid. I was looking for advise as to whether that should work okay as the best option (for organics).
Click to expand...
I dont think that your rain water is too high in my opinion anything in the 7 is fine in soil. I didn't know at first but i was using tap water at around 9. 3 and 450 ppm for a few weeks untill i got around to testing it and ordered my ph control tools, but it didnt kill my plant, try one plant using citric acid to lowered ph to your target and the other plant use your rain water, experts are experts because they have experience, you will get there too, just read as much as you can, take notes, and experiment
 
Overgrowtho said:
Yup I had chatted with people on RIU about this and at least one guy said it was good, well I'm having second thoughts on this medium yet again. However I was pretty confident about it since that was loosely based on the Dr. Bruce Bugbee formula.

I'm planning to stop using my home made mediums all together and just go with some store-bought stuff specifically for starting or acceptable for starting. I've got 2 being tested now and another 1 on the way.
Click to expand...

Whoever you were talking to likely thought you were using perlite not vermiculite. If they didn't then never listen to them again.
 
xtsho said:
That's a terrible mix. Too much vermiculite. Vermiculite holds water and your plants roots are drowning. That's just one issue.
Click to expand...
I agree you need perlite or something to add air i would try to add some perlite and top soil or just add addmendments to the store bought potting mix like perlite and worm casting you shouldn't need much more
 
xtsho said:
Whoever you were talking to likely thought you were using perlite not vermiculite. If they didn't then never listen to them again.
Click to expand...

I just looked up Dr. Bruce Bugbee and his blend is indeed 50% peat and 50% vermiculite. I've never heard of that but the guy is smarter than I am. The problem is that people are going to overwater and that mix won't dry out. It would likely be good for a more experienced grower that knew when to water their plants and not just water everyday regardless of whether the plant needed watering or not. But many cannabis growers feel the need to water even when the soil does not need it. I still don't recommend using that mix but I can't say it's no good. If used with correct watering practices it could reduce the actual amount of watering needed since vermiculite holds water.
 
xtsho said:
I just looked up Dr. Bruce Bugbee and his blend is indeed 50% peat and 50% vermiculite. I've never heard of that but the guy is smarter than I am. The problem is that people are going to overwater and that mix won't dry out. It would likely be good for a more experienced grower that knew when to water their plants and not just water everyday regardless of whether the plant needed watering or not. But many cannabis growers feel the need to water even when the soil does not need it. I still don't recommend using that mix but I can't say it's no good. If used with correct watering practices it could reduce the actual amount of watering needed since vermiculite holds water.
Click to expand...
Interesting...
 
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