PICO's DIY Thread - Advise, Ideas and Technology - NO PANEL REPS!

PICOGRAV

PICOGRAV

Well-Known Member
Hello, I have decided I will be only really be posting in my own threads from now on, I really like reading about other grows and picking up as much as I can. I seem to be hitting the nerves of other growers as I have very strong opinions and my internet friendliness is not that great at times (thanks 4chan).

Anyway a little bit about me, I have been obsessed with anything that had electricity running through it for as long as I can remember. From scratch I build almost all my own electronics, ever since I got my first soldering iron when I was about 14 years old, I can not read enough about exotic technology and incredibly random pieces of electronics, there are things I tinker with I would not dare mention on these forums for particular reasons, anyway I have never thought I couldn't do or build something better then someone else. I have an incredibly visual mind and I don't necessarily need to put something together to know if it will work the way I want it to or not. I currently have a grow going with a custom DIY LED panel, it seems to be working out as planed and I cant wait for everyone to see the next tests, in the mean time I would like to occupy my mind with some of the stuff you guys want to build!

So if you are like me or just want some advise on how to build or connect or power something to do with LED plant lighting POST IT HERE! Just remember sometimes if I think you are wrong and being ignorant I will most likely offend you, all I ask is that you offend me back and try and prove me wrong.

And just another reminder, this thread is for DIY people only and I will no loner give any opinions on manufactured panels, they are for casuals...

So first tip, buy your critical components from a reputable supplier! There is nothing worse then starting a project and finding out you got sent bootleg parts, even worse, not knowing you got bootleg parts! I would never buy Power Transistors, Large Capacitors or High Power LEDs from ebay, these are way to easy to fake, and you would almost never know.

I buy all my criticals from Farnell aka Element14 aka newark.com, RS Components is good to and digi key is OK. www.newark.com (http://www.farnell.com/ outside the us) has one of the best part organization and selection you could imagine, I routinely spend hours upon hours committing as many parts and specifications to memory as I can.

Happy growing and sorry in advance for all the insults I am bound to throw out.
 
Abiqua

Abiqua

Well-Known Member
I can't believe I am going to get into this, but.....1st thing there might a language barrier Pico? Is English your first language, just wondering.

That said, frankly your attitude on here is: smug.

We clashed on the Bridgelux vs. multichip argument. Remember, snowboarding QC isn't LED QC? Which you are correct, technologically isn't the same, but I was applying the notion of QC in a business environment. Sometimes it can be tedious and idiosyncratic and other times it can be lax. Is Bridgelux QC/QA all that different from companies who produce the multichips in China? I related that in snowboard building, the most expensive snowboards often had the same cores and the LEAST expensive had the SAME ones. It was all in how the product was marketed. So is there any way to prove Bridgelux's "reliability".

Your response: "Snowboarding isn't even close to LED's". But no other supporting proof of the question.

Then I even posted a multichip on Ebay, that used Bridgelux diodes and you brushed it off as a copy, according to someone in another forum, that you didn't post the link to.

Lastly, I have a goddamn 26 page pdf that talks about industry LED QC and Taiwan/Korea/Japan are leading the way in that category. Although China still leads in volume and USA has very low output, but I assume very good quality {bridgelux} but how do you tell?

Consulting the genie? Give me something credible.....


[Frankly, it leads me to believe that you think, $ alone, is the sole indicator of QC, tell me you have evaluated more than that?]

[Ps2]
I also think you have one hell of a grow going with the Vero.

I myself desperately am trying to put together an RS fixture [Brxa-56's] and count me definitely as a fan!
 
L

lax123

Well-Known Member
unfortunately there is another downside to buying chinese. the Company i work for as a Student is Technology leader in their stuff, building things that costs millions in total. while the chinese market has a lot of demand for those things, my Company was trying to expand to China. But all the chinese wanted was one single "plant" with no further Service contracts and what so ever. From other People i heard all they were doing at the construction site was photographing and recording everything with a lot of People trying to get to know every Piece...my company didnt finish the constuction and Expansion to China got canceled ... I guess if they had finished everything, in a couple of years a lot of People would loose their Jobs...because there is a new cheap chinese manufacturer who doesnt know the word patent...I like buying my stuff in China because im a Student on low Budget. But i know why my Company is also one of the most expensive, because i got to know how freaking expensive good R&D is, which does not always lead to new $$$...still gotta pay the People, materials, experts and phds...
 
PICOGRAV

PICOGRAV

Well-Known Member
Abiqua said:
I can't believe I am going to get into this, but.....1st thing there might a language barrier Pico? Is English your first language, just wondering.

That said, frankly your attitude on here is: smug.

We clashed on the Bridgelux vs. multichip argument. Remember, snowboarding QC isn't LED QC? Which you are correct, technologically isn't the same, but I was applying the notion of QC in a business environment. Sometimes it can be tedious and idiosyncratic and other times it can be lax. Is Bridgelux QC/QA all that different from companies who produce the multichips in China? I related that in snowboard building, the most expensive snowboards often had the same cores and the LEAST expensive had the SAME ones. It was all in how the product was marketed. So is there any way to prove Bridgelux's "reliability".

Your response: "Snowboarding isn't even close to LED's". But no other supporting proof of the question.

Then I even posted a multichip on Ebay, that used Bridgelux diodes and you brushed it off as a copy, according to someone in another forum, that you didn't post the link to.

Lastly, I have a goddamn 26 page pdf that talks about industry LED QC and Taiwan/Korea/Japan are leading the way in that category. Although China still leads in volume and USA has very low output, but I assume very good quality {bridgelux} but how do you tell?

Consulting the genie? Give me something credible.....


[Frankly, it leads me to believe that you think, $ alone, is the sole indicator of QC, tell me you have evaluated more than that?]

[Ps2]
I also think you have one hell of a grow going with the Vero.

I myself desperately am trying to put together an RS fixture [Brxa-56's] and count me definitely as a fan!
Click to expand...
Hello again Abiqua,

To start with there are far more expensive LEDs on the market then the Bridgelux Vero, the RS and ES I think will cost you more from most suppliers, people will still use the RS and ES chips for a while I believe, as it would properly cost them more to change their designs before the end of a products life. One of the main advantages of the Bridgelux Vero is that is is manufactured in two separate pieces but sold as a single unit.*1 The MCPCBs they use are now smaller and can be manufactured under almost complete automation, bringing the production cost down.

Bridgelux Partnered with Kaistar back around 2012 in a $25 million dollar deal and basically raised $220 million in privet funds to set up their own Chinese manufacturing *2, Bridgelux is very smart in partnering with a very diverse range of company's that are already involved in LED manufacturing and before all of this they had spent ridiculous money on their own manufacturing plant here in the US.

Bridgelux was also the first to offer a 5-Year Warranty on entire line of LED Products in 2010 *3, your question "Is Bridgelux QC/QA all that different from companies who produce the multichips in China?" is hard to answer, right now that fact they are producing in their own plant I would say better then most company's yes. The problem you had when looking for Bridgelux chips, is that you found un-branded assembly's on eBay utilizing Bridgelux Diodes, very very far from what an actual Bridgelux COB is. These no branded assembly's are basically a number of tiny little diodes placed onto a insulated thermal transfer surface and then bonded with heat or ultra sound and then a coat of phosphor is added. I could only imagine how many tiny little Chinese factory's are spitting these things out with outdated equipment probably mostly by hand, the fact that Cree or Bridgelux will sell there surplus stock to these company's lets them state there are in fact using a high quality Diode but the over all package is mostly outdated, there is absolutely no question the genuine Bridgluex chips will out preform and out last these.

One of the main factors in determining LED performance and reliability is the thermal resistance of the substrate and how the diodes are bonded to that surface. This where Bridgelux spends a lot of time researching and the arrays they produce have some of the lowest thermal resistances *4. Not only that but the documentation Bridgelux provide on there chips is far better then anyone else and can be used not only for their LED arrays but really as standard practice for all high power arrays *5.

EDIT: Here is a picture for some reference;

Thermal.jpg

*1 http://ledsmagazine.com/news/9/12/8
*2 http://gigaom.com/2012/02/13/for-bridgelux-led-opportunities-lie-in-china/
*3 http://bridgelux.com/media-center/press-releases/bridgelux-five-year-warranty/
*4 http://bridgelux.com/assets/products_portfolio/AN14ReliabilityDatasheet.pdf
*5 http://www.bridgelux.com/assets/products_portfolio/AN30 Thermal Management of Vero LED Modules.pdf
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
PICOGRAV said:
Hello again Abiqua,

To start with there are far more expensive LEDs on the market then the Bridgelux Vero, the RS and ES I think will cost you more from most suppliers, people will still use the RS and ES chips for a while I believe, as it would properly cost them more to change their designs before the end of a products life. One of the main advantages of the Bridgelux Vero is that is is manufactured in two separate pieces but sold as a single unit.*1 The MCPCBs they use are now smaller and can be manufactured under almost complete automation, bringing the production cost down.

Bridgelux Partnered with Kaistar back around 2012 in a $25 million dollar deal and basically raised $220 million in privet funds to set up their own Chinese manufacturing *2, Bridgelux is very smart in partnering with a very diverse range of company's that are already involved in LED manufacturing and before all of this they had spent ridiculous money on their own manufacturing plant here in the US.

Bridgelux was also the first to offer a 5-Year Warranty on entire line of LED Products in 2010 *3, your question "Is Bridgelux QC/QA all that different from companies who produce the multichips in China?" is hard to answer, right now that fact they are producing in their own plant I would say better then most company's yes. The problem you had when looking for Bridgelux chips, is that you found un-branded assembly's on eBay utilizing Bridgelux Diodes, very very far from what an actual Bridgelux COB is. These no branded assembly's are basically a number of tiny little diodes placed onto a insulated thermal transfer surface and then bonded with heat or ultra sound and then a coat of phosphor is added. I could only imagine how many tiny little Chinese factory's are spitting these things out with outdated equipment probably mostly by hand, the fact that Cree or Bridgelux will sell there surplus stock to these company's lets them state there are in fact using a high quality Diode but the over all package is mostly outdated, there is absolutely no question the genuine Bridgluex chips will out preform and out last these.

One of the main factors in determining LED performance and reliability is the thermal resistance of the substrate and how the diodes are bonded to that surface. This where Bridgelux spends a lot of time researching and the arrays they produce have some of the lowest thermal resistances *4. Not only that but the documentation Bridgelux provide on there chips is far better then anyone else and can be used not only for their LED arrays but really as standard practice for all high power arrays *5.

EDIT: Here is a picture for some reference;

View attachment 2862842

*1 http://ledsmagazine.com/news/9/12/8
*2 http://gigaom.com/2012/02/13/for-bridgelux-led-opportunities-lie-in-china/
*3 http://bridgelux.com/media-center/press-releases/bridgelux-five-year-warranty/
*4 http://bridgelux.com/assets/products_portfolio/AN14ReliabilityDatasheet.pdf
*5 http://www.bridgelux.com/assets/products_portfolio/AN30 Thermal Management of Vero LED Modules.pdf
Click to expand...

Very nice post! Lots of great sources.

Thanks!
 
bicit

bicit

Well-Known Member
Picograv- Do you have any emitter recommendations for someone looking to build their first LED panel? Have you thought about experimenting with water cooling?
 
PICOGRAV

PICOGRAV

Well-Known Member
bicit said:
Picograv- Do you have any emitter recommendations for someone looking to build their first LED panel? Have you thought about experimenting with water cooling?
Click to expand...
Yes, I love water or liquid cooling, and TEC devices, back in the day I had some of the top ten scores on PC mark with AMD CPUs, I would cool to sub zero temps with peltiers, the main problem was the condensation around the CPU socket shorting out jumpers and stuff like that.

Water cooling is a good idea for LED arrays as it saves space, in your grow area and air flow over convection or forced heat sinks is no longer a consideration but you have the added burden with the pump, pipes, and your main heat exchange.

As for the LEDs, I am all about arrays or COBs but ones the right ones, some of these arrays out at the moment are so fucking good! Like my other thread suggests the Bridgelux Arrays are what I consider the peak of technology ATM. I would look at the Vero range, highest power being the Vero 29. After watching my plants grow for 69 days it is easy for me to recommend exactly which Vero 29s to use.

So to start you dont have to go all the way to the 29, they have the same packaging in various lumen levels, 10,000, 4000, 2000 and 1000. I think the best color to flower with and do the bulk of your veg would be the 2700K arrays but there are two of them, 90 CRI and 80 CRI, the 80 CRI (ones in my setup E10) have a higher light radiation then then the other but the 90 CRI light can be split into more colors. I like the higher lumen approach, 9380 lm (typical 80 CRI) as opposed to 7520 lm (typical 90 CRI), you where an interior designer you would always want that higher CRI because you can never get it by adding more lights, the light has to be capable of it first. With my setup and most peoples we add extra lights that improve this, I have the 5000K running as well with a CRI of only 70 but it spits out a typical 11340 lumen!

Time will tell in the end whether the 5000K 70 CRI with do better then the 2700K 80 CRI but right now, the two plants I have getting the bulk of the reddish light (2700K) are much further along, although the shorter plant, primarily in the bluer light is doing very well also, lots of flowers, resiny top buds, it seems like it is just behind the other two, sorta looks the same as the other two about 2-3 weeks ago, maybe it will out flower them? The problem that it is so short, its actually getting shaded but on the other hand the bluer light would be brighter so in the end its actually quite a far comparison.

Anyway, the color temp might not even be the primary factor in this, the higher CRI the reddish light is emitting might be the benefit of the advancement in flowers. What I would recommend for you, depending on your space, if you want to do 2-4 plants, get two Bridglelux arrays, both in the 2700K temp but one of each, 80 and 90 CRI. If your budget allows for it one 4000K 80 CRI in the middle would be optimum. I would allow for 6 ft from the ground, and you could properly do up to 6 small plants or 3 large ones. Mount the LED close together on one of these:

http://www.customthermoelectric.com/Water_blocks.html

Those blocks are much much better then what you would buy for CPU cooling, copper is also much superior to aluminum, you just need a lot of droller bills :)

If you wanted to just try one array to start with, I think the 2700K CRI 80 would be the best and supplement the blue light with one of these in cool white:

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/LEDAdvancedLight/Home/

I think you would even be able to do three plants with that set up.

Bridglelux LED Vero 29 array reference:

2700K 80 CRI - BXRC-27E10K0-L-xx - http://www.newark.com/bridgelux/bxrc-27e10k0-l-03/led-hb-vero-white-10000lm-2700k/dp/62W5793
2700K 90 CRI - BXRC-27G10K0-L-xx - http://www.newark.com/bridgelux/bxrc-27g10k0-l-03/led-hb-vero-white-10000lm-2700k/dp/62W5797
4000K 80 CRI - BXRC-40E10K0-L-xx - http://www.newark.com/bridgelux/bxrc-40e10k0-l-03/led-hb-vero-white-10000lm-4000k/dp/62W5819
5000K 70 CRI - BXRC-50C10K0-L-04 -http://www.newark.com/bridgelux/bxrc-50c10k0-l-04/led-hb-vero-white-10000lm-5000k/dp/62W5823?in_merch=Popular Products

Convection heat sink for Vero:
http://www.newark.com/wakefield-solutions/19754-m-ab/heat-sink-rs-rectangle-extrusion/dp/23T0729?in_merch=Popular Heat Sinks&in_merch=Popular Products&MER=PPSO_N_P_EverywhereElse_None

Full Vero range:
buy from - http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=422+216532+811293723+811293795+811293661+811293382&Ns=P_ATT_BASE_VALUE_1001173_EN_US|1&locale=en_US&appliedparametrics=true&getResults=true&suppressRedirect=true&isRedirect=&originalQueryURL=/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=422+216532&No=0&getResults=true&appliedparametrics=true&locale=en_US&divisionLocale=en_US&catalogId=&skipManufacturer=false&skipParametricAttributeId=&prevNValues=422+216532

Info at - http://www.bridgelux.com/products/vero-series/

Tell me more about your set up and what LEDs you choose and then we can talk about how to drive them.
 
PICOGRAV

PICOGRAV

Well-Known Member
PetFlora said:
Cool, BUT, probably want min 2-3 (2-300w) @ $50 for a 2 x 4 tent + 2/3 drivers @ ~ $125 + 2/3 heat sinks + wiring/plugs... pushing on A51 SGS 160 light cost now
Click to expand...
Yes, but there are many unknowns (IMO) about that panel, what Drivers they use, the actual junction temperature of the LEDs in the panel in the grow room. I calculate just over 20,000 total lumens with optimal conditions, you could achieve that with two Vero 29s, at a higher CRI.

I can admit the panel is a good price for what you get but the cost savings start to get better and better the more you expand the DIY system, using larger single source power supply's and possibly implementing a water cooling system, you could have a better setup, working together more with our man made ecosystems we are growing in.
 
bicit

bicit

Well-Known Member
Hmmm excellent information. Those water blocks are capable of some serious cooling. I'm just postulating a bit here, but it looks like one could run five of the vero 29's on the largest water block (132x132mm) and drive those emitters clear up too 3.1 amps without an issue. Or alternatively, run 4 29 vevo's and a few MPCB stars to fill out the spectrum range a bit. It would be an expensive panel though to be sure. Although I wonder if that would be too much light concentrated in one area? Maybe two of the above panels for a two by four area?

What do you guy's think? Just throwing some idea's around.
 
PICOGRAV

PICOGRAV

Well-Known Member
bicit said:
Hmmm excellent information. Those water blocks are capable of some serious cooling. I'm just postulating a bit here, but it looks like one could run five of the vero 29's on the largest water block (132x132mm) and drive those emitters clear up too 3.1 amps without an issue. Or alternatively, run 4 29 vevo's and a few MPCB stars to fill out the spectrum range a bit. It would be an expensive panel though to be sure. Although I wonder if that would be too much light concentrated in one area? Maybe two of the above panels for a two by four area?

What do you guy's think? Just throwing some idea's around.
Click to expand...
I will reply with more info later, but you should stick around for what I have planed...
 
Abiqua

Abiqua

Well-Known Member
bicit said:
Hmmm excellent information. Those water blocks are capable of some serious cooling. I'm just postulating a bit here, but it looks like one could run five of the vero 29's on the largest water block (132x132mm) and drive those emitters clear up too 3.1 amps without an issue. Or alternatively, run 4 29 vevo's and a few MPCB stars to fill out the spectrum range a bit. It would be an expensive panel though to be sure. Although I wonder if that would be too much light concentrated in one area? Maybe two of the above panels for a two by four area?

What do you guy's think? Just throwing some idea's around.
Click to expand...

One thing I don't like about the Lux's is how they rate their efficiency per watt. @3.1a [don't have the datasheet in front of me] but don't they list them down around 100-105/lu-w? and their intensity is crazy at that current.
Should lumen efficiency count as just a baseline to compare other models? Does it appear slightly dimmer at that higher current? Is that all that is meant by "lumens per watt efficiency"?

I think the 3 and 4k together make a veg and bloom light. I mulled it over for hours last night. The 5k seems a little too blue around 400-450nm.


There are also some threads out there on Peltier's and LED cooling. For me the biggest drawback for them is their high power usage, but they are cheap as hell, as big as you would need for these COB's, but the smallest use 50-75 watts. But at quick retail they are $5.

.....article too somewheres about DARPA [fuckheads] using thermoplastic heatsinks with blowers to increase LED efficiency. It's out there.....so there are thermoplastic heatsink designs out there as well.


I think water cooling has its place, especially for high power growing in enclosed spaces. No doubt about it. The water blocks seem to be made for COB's and I don't think its that complicated to form up an enclosure to keep water away from electro and vice versa.

Then there are those heatsinks with the little air pump built right into the sink itself [Sold at Futurelighting solutions?]
 
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