Practical Advice for Next Step in Lighting

Hello All. First off, my most sincere thanks to you regular posters who devote so much time to helping others on this site. I've used this site as a resource for a while now, and I usually am able to find the answers to questions by simply reviewing previous threads. However, now I think I need some customized advice from you experts this time.

Since most of you recommend Hight Tech Garden Supply ("HTGS"), I'll reference their products.

Background - Using soil, and (for now) a 3x4 growing area. I would like the option of increasing the area to 4x5 down the road. Although I would like to keep costs down as much as possible, I want to do this right.

I am considering the following options:

Option 1: 400w HPS Ballast + 400w MH Ballast. About $240 for both.
400w HPS:
High Tech Garden Supply

Here is the 400w MH:
High Tech Garden Supply

Pros - 2 separate ballasts, comparatively cheap.
Cons - please tell me if I should get a 600w instead. Ballast not electronic. Hot (although overall room temp should not be a problem). Great price raises concern about quality.


Option 2: 600w HPS with MH conversion bulb (1 electronic ballast ).
$430
High Tech Garden Supply

I've read that you get a noticeable reduction in lumens using a conversion bulb, but I've also read that electronic ballasts ups the lumens.

Pros - 200w more than the 400w option, air-cooled reflector.
Cons - comparatively expensive, conversions bulbs.


Option 3: 600w HPS with MH conversion bulb for $349.95.
High Tech Garden Supply

Same as above (1 electronic ballast), but no air-cooled reflector. Might be good compromise, since can always get an air-cooled reflector later.


Concerns:
- I want a good system but also want the best value. It appears that 400w is should be enough for me, but if y'all say that 600w will provide a noticeable difference, I'll definately spend the money.

- For air-cooled reflectors, does the glass covering eat up light or specific wavelengths? In other words, am I better off with a 400w or 600w open-air reflector with a standard fan?

- Electronic ballasts - are these really worth the extra money? Do they noticeably cut down on energy usage?


Thanks for taking the time to read this.

do a search for Solarmax1.. it combines both. I swear by it.

Thanks Dursky, I'll look into that. Anyone else have any suggestions?

I think you are better off with the 400W lights because if you find you need more you can buy a second for cheap and then be able to position the two lights for max coverage vs one light that only shines at one angle.

Get a switchable ballast. You literally flip a switch on the ballast if you want to use MH or HPS. No special conversion bulbs are needed which cost more.

Bayou_Billy said:

- I want a good system but also want the best value. It appears that 400w is should be enough for me, but if y'all say that 600w will provide a noticeable difference, I'll definately spend the money.

- For air-cooled reflectors, does the glass covering eat up light or specific wavelengths? In other words, am I better off with a 400w or 600w open-air reflector with a standard fan?

- Electronic ballasts - are these really worth the extra money? Do they noticeably cut down on energy usage?

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Hiya Bayou_Billy

Nice to see someone looking into things seriously and weighing up the pro's and cons of each system. Sorry to be a 'little' predictable but the 600w electronic ballast air cooled relfector is going to be by far your best option in my opinion, but it does depend to an extent on whats important to you.

My reasoning for this would be -

600w over 400w, your intention to expand your area later on. A 400w will light a 4 x 4 area (16sq foot) reasonably well, a 600w would light a 5' x 5' (25sq ft) area very well.

As the 600w is using an air cooled hood, temperature becomes less of a problem but bear in mind you'll need an decent inline extractor fan with that, otherwise a 600w not air cooled could build up a fair amount of heat.

A 600w HPS running on a digital ballast is the most effective producer of lumens per watt of any HPS system available. Digital ballasts produce on average about 10-20% more lumens than magnetic ones.

The glass covering does lose you a few lumens, but with a 600w it would be negligible. The glass does not affext the spectral wavelengths. It also opens up co2 injection systems should you wish to use them, much easier to use with sealed air cooled hoods.

Electronic ballasts are far more efficient than magnetic coil ones. An electronic 600w ballast will use about 620w of electricty, a 600w magnetic about 720w. They also 'soft start' the bulbs, that means they only use as much voltage as the igniter needs to fire the bulb, as opposed to magnetics that fire a set voltage - this reduces bulb life and the electronic helps to extend it. The electronic ballast also actively monitors the bulb voltage use and adjusts it on the fly, also helping to extend bulb life. They also have far better bulb life efficacy than magnetics, ie the lumen output drops less with age than magnetic ballasts.

As far as I'm aware, most electronic ballasts will fire both MH bulbs and HPS bulbs without the need to switch, because of their soft start technology but you'd need to check on this with your supplier. This effectively means you can use either bulb in them without the need for conversion bulbs.

My only reservation with electronic ballsts is their RF screening, with many producing unnaceptable AM frequency interference - again check that with your supplier.

Good luck with whichever system you decide to go with.

ps Ventronic electronic ballasts are the best

Thanks Babygro, very informative.

Bayou_Billy said:

Thanks Babygro, very informative.

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The information was wrong and certainly misleading she posted for the most part.

Energy ratings on digital ballasts were measured for start up draws which make the digital ballasts eye popping to the uninformed.

The eye popping part is really we are talking a matter of less than 60 seconds of energy every day for start up savings in a digital ballast versus magnetic ballasts and even at that we are talking a fraction of that cost again.

What this means is you may see a penny savings over the next ten years and if it gets to a nickle - wow.

No one talks about what happens if a digital ballast get dropped or nudged versus a magnetic ballast which can be used to commit mass murders and they still keep working. They are nuclear proof almost.

The next claim or MYTH about digital ballasts is that they "extend" the life of your bulbs. Hmmm...that is a slicky covered stat and this is how.

HID bulbs have a life expectancy and a drop off in performance during their life cycle.

GOOD growers know this fact and rotate their bulbs on a cyclical basis no matter the condition of the bulbs because they know after a year or so the bulbs are petering out. Does the digital ballast extend this life expectancy by several months or even years? NO. Maybe a few weeks and again just like changing the batteries in your smoke detectors for Day Light savings time, you change your bulbs as well.

Did the digital ballast justfy themselves yet ?

Of course not. Some believe the slick hype of the digital ballast marketers and advertisers.

See momma raised no dummies here but some apparently bought into the bullshiit. It is not surprising. Heads up !!!!

hmmm..... conflicting opinions. Maybe the digital ballasts aren't all they are cracked up to be. Never thought about durability. Thanks.

Bayou_Billy said:

hmmm..... conflicting opinions. Maybe the digital ballasts aren't all they are cracked up to be. Never thought about durability. Thanks.

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There are a ton of cheap knock off chinese digital ballasts which have hit the market. Some have caused explosions and fires.

When they first hit the market within the last year or so the warranties were horrendous. You were lucky to get 30 days or maybe 60 days of warranty whereas magnetic ballasts have 5 year warranty's as a standard.

Ask about the warranty and ask what happens if the digital ballast gets wet or dropped and if you hear crickets on the phone, run.

You have been warned !!! Caveat Emptor or let the buyer beware !!!

Oh and since anything new on the market which is electronic generally has BUGS in it, let someone else be the GUINNY PIG is my motto so double heads up !!!!

Bayou_Billy said:

hmmm..... conflicting opinions. Maybe the digital ballasts aren't all they are cracked up to be. Never thought about durability. Thanks.

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There was nothing incorrect or inaccurate about the information I gave you.

This chang_2_madre person seems to have taken it upon himself to dismiss and undermine pretty much anything and everything I say on here, but that shouldn't mean others need to be taken in by his nonsense.

Check everything I said against online resources and by speaking to suppliers. This isn't about me being 'right' its about you getting the correct information to make your decision and if there are any doubts about the veracity of the information supplied - please check it yourself directly with the suppliers.

It's perfectly true there are cheap chinese imported digital ballasts on the market, in just the same way as there are cheap chinese imported magnetic coil ballasts on the market - common sense and reliable and recommended suppliers should help you weed out the good from the bad.

Digital ballasts are far more energy efficient than magnetic coil ballasts, it's not just about the start up voltage used, again please check this against supplier information.

Regarding build quality and reliability, I know people using Ventronic (made by SunMaster) digital ballasts for some time and they've had no problems at all, the warranties for digital ballasts are exactly the same for magnetic coil ones.

Digital ballasts are relatively new technology and they have had some teething problems with some of them, notably Lumatek, which has had RF frequency interference problems as I mentioned and and bulb manufacturers not adhering to 'standard' start up voltage guidelines which meant that the igniter wouldn't fire certain bulbs from certain manufacturers.

There's a good article here about digital ballasts, although some of the information contained within it is now out of date regarding some of the ballasts tested, it does include some interesting general background information on digital ballasts generally which might help dispell some of the myths this chang character has manged to convey.

Digital Ballasts Explained | BGHydro

babygro said:

There was nothing incorrect or inaccurate about the information I gave you.

This chang_2_madre person seems to have taken it upon himself to dismiss and undermine pretty much anything and everything I say on here, but that shouldn't mean others need to be taken in by his nonsense.

Check everything I said against online resources and by speaking to suppliers. This isn't about me being 'right' its about you getting the correct information to make your decision and if there are any doubts about the veracity of the information supplied - please check it yourself directly with the suppliers.

It's perfectly true there are cheap chinese imported digital ballasts on the market, in just the same way as there are cheap chinese imported magnetic coil ballasts on the market - common sense and reliable and recommended suppliers should help you weed out the good from the bad.

Digital ballasts are far more energy efficient than magnetic coil ballasts, it's not just about the start up voltage used, again please check this against supplier information.

Regarding build quality and reliability, I know people using Ventronic (made by SunMaster) digital ballasts for some time and they've had no problems at all, the warranties for digital ballasts are exactly the same for magnetic coil ones.

Digital ballasts are relatively new technology and they have had some teething problems with some of them, notably Lumatek, which has had RF frequency interference problems as I mentioned and and bulb manufacturers not adhering to 'standard' start up voltage guidelines which meant that the igniter wouldn't fire certain bulbs from certain manufacturers.

There's a good article here about digital ballasts, although some of the information contained within it is now out of date regarding some of the ballasts tested, it does include some interesting general background information on digital ballasts generally which might help dispell some of the myths this chang character has manged to convey.

Digital Ballasts Explained | BGHydro

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Your information propagated is flawed.

You still promote the digital savings idea. This is more bullshiit. We have a local hydro shop very well respected who did his own fight back tests on the coil versus magnetic ballast costs. This is a real world test and not the shit you post or read and believe.

He used 5 600 watt digital ballasts (the 1k watters were not out yet) versus 5 mag coil ballasts and his electrical costs were exactly the same. He shook his head and laughed and said "see, this is what they are asking me to sell". He had to find out if indeed this shit worked as advertised.

The only thing true was less heat and faster start-up by a few seconds. This does not justify the added cost not to mention the lack of reliability factor.

Any NEW electronic device should be viewed with the utmost concern and not touted as the next best thing. That is what you did.

If you knew about the fires and problems you should have mentioned it but you did not. That is fucking irresponsible and someone could get killed.

I see it is easier for you to play the victim as a defense and that in and of itself is candyass'd. Man up. If you post irresponsible shit, it will get called out.

You never even brought up the subject of durability because you have no clue until I mentioned it and then you backpeddled.

Some are not born yesterday and stupid as you seem to think.

Yeah and I have received tons of e-mail of people sick of your shit and misinformation. I do not like the e-mails so everyone can stop. I do not need encouragement against anybody. I detest bullshit lies propagated and they will get called out.

Now the next time you post something, have your facts straight and not the fuzzy math you present to try and impress. This shit is too simple.

babygro said:

Regarding build quality and reliability, I know people using Ventronic (made by SunMaster) digital ballasts for some time and they've had no problems at all, the warranties for digital ballasts are exactly the same for magnetic coil ones.

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You just do not learn do you?

Maybe you are so use to NOT being questioned by someone who knows their shit it makes you feel uncomfortable ?

I do not know nor do I care but these are more fucking flat out lies. I mean flat out fucking lies.

The warranties are not the same.

The replacement of a Lumatek digital ballast in store is around 30 days. For a mag ballast it is one year for starters. If that does not get your attention, let me educate you some more.

Read the fucking fine print and choke on it:

The Lumatek ballast has the longest warranty of all electronic ballasts -5 years (3 year exchange 2 year prorated). Future Bright: only 2 years (an optional 3rd year can purchased for $40.00). ROM Light: only 3 years. Terra Grow: 1 year replacement; 4 years prorated.


What kind of fucking warranty is this and how the fuck is it the same as a mag warranty ? Mag ballasts are replaced for 5 years with no prorating.

Oh and if anyone still believes babygro, here is the link.

750W Lumatek Digital Ballast - 240V | Grow Light Ballast Assemblies=

Please explain how the warranty's are the same? This should prove to be an interesting tap dance.

Let the crowd decide who is telling the truth as you suggested.

Chinga_2_Madre said:

Your information propagated is flawed.

You still promote the digital savings idea. This is more bullshiit. We have a local hydro shop very well respected who did his own fight back tests on the coil versus magnetic ballast costs. This is a real world test and not the shit you post or read and believe.

He used 5 600 watt digital ballasts (the 1k watters were not out yet) versus 5 mag coil ballasts and his electrical costs were exactly the same. He shook his head and laughed and said "see, this is what they are asking me to sell". He had to find out if indeed this shit worked as advertised.

The only thing true was less heat and faster start-up by a few seconds. This does not justify the added cost not to mention the lack of reliability factor.

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More waffle, obfuscation, smoke, mirrors and bullshit.

Do you notice how I can back up everything I say with factual referenced information and you just waffle on about a bunch of bullshit?

Lumatek 600w digital ballast, amperage 5.1 - 5.15

Using ohms law volts x amps = watts 5.1 x 120 = 612-618 watts.

Source: Digital Ballasts Explained | BGHydro

Standard 600w magnetic coil ballast, amperage 5.7.

Source: Crop Lighting PL Lights/Hortilux Lights

Using ohms law 5.7amps x 120 volts = 684 watts.

Now you tell me which of those is cheaper to run, and I'll let everyone else make their own mind up as well.

babygro said:

More waffle, obfuscation, smoke, mirrors and bullshit.

Do you notice how I can back up everything I say with factual referenced information and you just waffle on about a bunch of bullshit?

Lumatek 600w digital ballast, amperage 5.1 - 5.15

Using ohms law volts x amps = watts 5.1 x 120 = 612-618 watts.

Source: Digital Ballasts Explained | BGHydro

Standard 600w magnetic coil ballast, amperage 5.7.

Source: Crop Lighting PL Lights/Hortilux Lights

Using ohms law 5.7amps x 120 volts = 684 watts.

Now you tell me which of those is cheaper to run, and I'll let everyone else make their own mind up as well.

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Please explain how the warranty's are the same and stop evading the question.

I will get back to the math to show you where you are completely clueless but first explain the warranty's. I am all ears.

While you are explaining the warranty's, can you expand on why there are two standards for ballast warranty's ?

Is there a logic here which makes sense ?

Can you deduce why there are two warranty standards ?

Please answer the question.

I am waiting.

Chinga_2_Madre said:

Please explain how the warranty's are the same and stop evading the question.

I will get back to the math to show you where you are completely clueless but first explain the warranty's. I am all ears.

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5 year warranty on a Lumatex digital ballast? You think thats bad do you?

Warranties are provided by the individual manufacturers - they will vary according to that manufacturers warranty policy - but as far as I'm concerned the warranties for digital ballasts and magnetic coil ones from the same manufacturer will be exactly the same.

babygro said:

5 year warranty on a Lumatex digital ballast? You think thats bad do you?

Warranties are provided by the individual manufacturers - they will vary according to that manufacturers warranty policy - but as far as I'm concerned the warranties for digital ballasts and magnetic coil ones from the same manufacturer will be exactly the same.

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Please answer the question about how the warranty's are the same. Where does it say on any quality magnetic ballast generally sold it will be prorated?

Why is it a 30 day exchange versus a one year in-house exchange ?

You see, the warranty's are not the same. They are light years apart and some ask for more money.

It stands to reason the manufacturer is not 100% sure of his product otherwise, they would indeed offer a no-frills exchange policy for 5 years. They do not and for very good reason.

Now that should tell you something and the rest of the forum something.

First, the digital ballasts are not well supported by warranty's versus the mag ballasts and two, dude you are full of shit.

Chinga_2_Madre said:

Please answer the question about how the warranty's are the same. Where does it say on any quality magnetic ballast generally sold it will be prorated?

Why is it a 30 day exchange versus a one year in-house exchange ?

You see, the warranty's are not the same. They are light years apart and some ask for more money.

It stands to reason the manufacturer is not 100% sure of his product otherwise, they would indeed offer a no-frills exchange policy for 5 years. They do not and for very good reason.

Now that should tell you something and the rest of the forum something.

First, the digital ballasts are not well supported by warranty's versus the mag ballasts and two, dude you are full of shit.

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Quite.

End of discussion. Hopefully people will make their own minds up about who's talking shit and who isn't.

I have no interest in entering into any further discussion with you on this or any other subject.

Have a nice day.