Effect of Defoliation on Yield - Skywalker OG indoor scrog

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miccyj

Well-Known Member
miccy I'm gonna start yanking leaves right now. I was thinking to yank all damaged leaves, all leaves that create crowding, and I'm even debating taking the mature fans from the buds in late flower. I'm starting to yank leaves today. what is your vote on what to pull? here are some pics of tables A and B respectively and flowers too
Hey mate, I usually don't let anything get bigger than the palm of my hand, but I have been told I'm quite drastic with my plucking but I get good results.

There is a good how to on it here http://growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial

This guy seems to know what he's doing.
 

waterdawg

Well-Known Member
I'm not leaning one way or the other re: benefits but what I have read is that lots of guys that do start defoliating at veg and do it right through the growth cycle. Pulling off any leaf that has a stem longer than 1". That is the approach I took as it seemed like a true defoliation test and not just the leafs that shaded. If you are testing the effects of defoliation my instincts would be to pull them all off as I did. Hopefully things have settled down a bit lol and you can get on with it.
 

OscarLaGrouch

Well-Known Member
I'm happy to engage in conversation about this, sorry to OP about jacking your thread, I fully support your experiment.
I think that the OP's experiment is sound, I dont see why there are so many ready to shoot it down before seeing the results.
no worries about jacking the thread as we are still talking about the subject of defoliation. frankly I am pumped to have interested supporters and interested detractors. hubris may be responsible for some of the BS; I'm not deterred.
apparently UB didn't read the opening thread cuz I'm neither uneducated no inexperienced. I have a BS in Botany from a major university and treat everything like a research project for a lab. not quite like HIM but ok.

I started yanking leaves after I let a bunch of White Fire OG run fucking wild in my scrog. those bitches got SO BIG and so thick that light could not reach the inner spaces. those inner buds were weak and underdeveloped. I still got .79 g per watt.

SO that starting me thinking that maybe a little more canopy maintenance would keep things nice and airy, giving all bud sites a chance to bask in the daylight and come to their full potential.

that's it. not here to make anyone look stupid or feel bad about their POV.
 

Thckingdom

Member
I
Summary
Preliminary research of the internet on the effect of defoliation on Cannabis Sativa yields results in little definitive information. The only way to determine if defoliation has a positive, negative or neutral effect on yield is to do a side-by-side comparison. This experiment will do just that. Controlling for all other variables, the only experimental variable will be the methodical removal of fan leaves that effectively shade bud sites. The goal is to determine if allowing artificial light to reach these sites provides the extra energy to increase flower size. Alternatively, it may be determined that removal of leaves has a hormonal effect on plants that may or may not be deleterious to increased yields.

Background
Researcher has a B.S., in Botany from a University of California and has been growing for five years continuously in an indoor environment.

Environment
Sealed-air room is maintained at 79-83 degrees until week seven of flower where it will be dropped to 75 degrees. Reservoir is maintained at 63%F. Humidity ranges from 55-68% RH. Humidity will be dropped in week 7 to under 55% RH Auto-irrigation with drain-to-waste. Four Ushio HPS bulbs are 24" from the canopy. Plants are topped and supercropped into a scrog.

Materials
RO water
Heavy 16 nutrients (full line)
50/50 coco/perlite
Mykos beneficials mixed into medium and added weekly by top dressing
Protekt Silica
MagiCal
Bio-Cozyme
CannaZyme
Eagle 20
Dutch Master reverse
CO2
dehumidifier
drain-to-waste auto irrigation
4 x 1KW HPS bulbs over 2 4x8' trays

Procedure
36 Skywalker OG clones were obtained from Progressive Options, a reputable genetics farm in Los Angeles. All plants are clones taken from the same mother. All plants have been maintained in the identical environment as a group and have been or will be treated with the same materials. All plants will be fed the same nutrient regimen and have been planted in the same medium. The experimental variable will be applied to one 4x8 table while the other table will be untouched with regard to defoliation around bud sites. Defoliation/lollipopping below the scrog has been applied to both tables. All plants were topped in early veg at the fifth internode to encourage branching for the scrog growing method.
The experimental variable of defoliation will be applied only to fan leaves with a petiole that are directly shading at least one bud site. Defoliation will be applied beginning in the third week of flower and will continue as needed.
Weekly summaries of the experiment will be posted. Grow is expected to run up to ten weeks and will be flushed for one week at the end. Resulting flowers will be tested for potency, mold and pesticides by theWercShop.com and results posted here.

At harvest, plants from each table will be hung to dry directly under the table they were grown on. Each table will be hand-trimmed with identical methods and maintained separately from each other. Following a cure to 55% RH, each table will be weighed and the results posted here.

IMPORTANT: TROLLING WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
All trolls will be blocked and all individuals quoting trolls into the thread will be blocked.
 

OscarLaGrouch

Well-Known Member
I'm not leaning one way or the other re: benefits but what I have read is that lots of guys that do start defoliating at veg and do it right through the growth cycle. Pulling off any leaf that has a stem longer than 1". That is the approach I took as it seemed like a true defoliation test and not just the leafs that shaded. If you are testing the effects of defoliation my instincts would be to pull them all off as I did. Hopefully things have settled down a bit lol and you can get on with it.
I read about the 1" petiole somewhere else, probably from you. that seems like a good idea because, at that point, another set of leaves is closer to the meristem, powering growth from there. now the leaf with the petiole is perhaps in competition with the inflorescence.

i think we feed so aggressively that plants pop out more leaves than they really need so if you cut back on the leaf count, more energy goes to flower production.
 

OscarLaGrouch

Well-Known Member
Sure, I asked which will make a bud bigger: a higher up fan leaf producing energy at half efficiency that will reach the bud eventually; or the actual bud site itself with the same square inches of plant material as our fan leaf, except it would probably be like 2 small fan leafs, some sugar leaf, and bud material.

Which is a rhetorical question meant to point out how indoor defoliation is not such a cut-n-dry answer. I wasn't looking for a lecture on how bud doesn't photosynthesize; that completely misses the point of what I said... and actually makes up part of the question of - is a shaded bud site with fan leaf more or less productive than an unshaded bus site.

Now, I'm out.
cmon don't leave. this is exactly the question I am pondering. help me answer it.
 

OscarLaGrouch

Well-Known Member
"Being that this is about the 50th (lame) defoliation thread at this made-for-noobies-with-theories-who-have-no-common-sense website, it just gets boring. Most of you guys wouldn't understand the function of a leaf if it bit you on the ass."

Why bother then? Why feel the need to even get involved. For that matter why are you even on this lame forum? I gotta ask because it seems like a big pain in your ass having to deal with all of these uneducated morons. Fyi i am a moron when it comes to growing pot and I've been growing outdoors for over 35 years now lol.
UB is an academic doing real research and we are just noobs wasting time and everything else in our stupid indoor sandbox.

as I am the sole financier of said sandbox, it is not cutting into anyone else's budget to try this out.
 
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OscarLaGrouch

Well-Known Member
No they're not, as explained in previous threads. You obviously have never grown cannabis outdoors. I've grown a lot, both indoors and out and am an outdoors grower exclusively now. In spite of canopy penetration sunrise to sunset, the lower budsites will always be popcorn style. Again, light is not the issue. Chronological age, development and hormonal processes aka apical dominance is. No matter what the plant material is...tree, vine...annual like cannabis, the newer growth will always receive the goodies before the older plant material.

Example - how many threads have you seen around here that complain that the lower leaves are yellow and finally die off? It's because most do not provide enough N, they have their NPK ratios all fucked up (because they haven't learned to stay away from the vendor's low N foods hype). So, what does the plant do? It pulls N from the lower leaves and sends it upstairs. Upper leaves stay green, lower leaves die.

UB
I agree with all of this. I feel like my chemdawgs want N in week 7. they look pale. I wish I'd fed it to them longer.
its not gonna hurt anyone but me to do this experiment so everybody needs to chillax.
 

waterdawg

Well-Known Member
Well im getting to old to play in the outdoor sand box lol. It was a shitload of work lol. Never did less than 50 and the biggest outdoor was 500 :-O. That was a long time ago if anyones watching btw lol.
 

Sparkticus

Well-Known Member
I read about the 1" petiole somewhere else, probably from you. that seems like a good idea because, at that point, another set of leaves is closer to the meristem, powering growth from there. now the leaf with the petiole is perhaps in competition with the inflorescence.

i think we feed so aggressively that plants pop out more leaves than they really need so if you cut back on the leaf count, more energy goes to flower production.
Healthy plants will produce more foliage than they need, to compensate for natural defoliation (weather, pests etc.). So when we care for plants indoors and remove those factors, there is a good possibility the plant has more leaves than it needs to function at it's maximum. Some leaves can go and have no effect on the plant's functions... it's a natural defense mechanism for the plant. However, unless those leaves are unhealthy and draining energy to stay alive (which is usually a mistake on our parts via feeding or whatever), I don't think their existence (even if shading sites) will negatively affect flower growth. Some indoor growers I respect and who consistently get huge yields, don't yank anything but they also have extremely healthy plants start to finish. Since all their leaves are green and happy, the leaves are strictly producing energy, not taking any away. That's their logic anyway and I tend to agree based on looking at their bushes, haha.

If the plants stay FREE OF DEFICIENCIES and such my prediction would be : The yields will be relatively close. Some defoliation of healthy leaves is natural and will have little effect on yields. Too much defoliation will lower yields... I think we can all agree plants need some amount of leaves to be healthy, lol (which brings up a good question, how much defoliation is too much?). If the untouched plants are healthy throughout, they will produce as much as defoliated plants, even in shaded sites. This is an educated guess at best and if I'm completely wrong, I'm okay with that.... I learned something. *This guess isn't really based on a scrog which may very well need to be defoliated up to the screen to be as effective by design.
 
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OscarLaGrouch

Well-Known Member
well my camera wants a charge and I'm trying to accomodate it before lights out.
took a shitload of leaves off of table A. maybe a third or so. maybe 25% but they were all mature leaves with long petioles. left everything that was still maturing in size. it looks a lot lighter and airier in the canopy compared to table B wish I could show you.
I feel like I just unburdened the plants of table A and table B is like. what about us?
 

miccyj

Well-Known Member
well my camera wants a charge and I'm trying to accomodate it before lights out.
took a shitload of leaves off of table A. maybe a third or so. maybe 25% but they were all mature leaves with long petioles. left everything that was still maturing in size. it looks a lot lighter and airier in the canopy compared to table B wish I could show you.
I feel like I just unburdened the plants of table A and table B is like. what about us?
Haha, I bet your gonna see the difference in growth between the two table very quickly, I can't wait to see pics in a week.
should I defol 1x or 2x week? opinions?
I usually do it once a week, but I'm not religious about it, when things start to get bushy, I tidy it up.
 

miccyj

Well-Known Member
Any "experiment" by any member of RIU is meaningless. The results are based on seeing what one wants to see


Since you seem to think budsites need light to produce, why don't you completely defoliate your plant?
Wow, just.... Wow..... If you have such a low opinion of those here, why bother posting at all? This is just rude and unproductive and to be honest I would have expected better from a community veteran. Very disappointing.
 
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