Dirty Jerz
Well-Known Member
Anyone heard of or made use of this stuff? http://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?kw=npk+raw&isNewKw=1&pgn=1&epp=24&mfs=SBCLK&acimp=0&itemId=&cnm=&cid=&sqp=npk+raw
NPK RAW, create your own nutes!
- Thread starter Dirty Jerz
- Start date
churchhaze
Well-Known Member
Why not just buy generic salts ?
That RAW brand looks like bullshit.
That RAW brand looks like bullshit.
DJapeshit
Active Member
Why??
Looks interesting to me.
churchhaze
Well-Known Member
Because generic salts are cheaper and more straight forward. With product names like "RAW nitrogen" being ammonium sulfate, it's hard to see any advantage.
For example, I can get a 50 pound bag of calcium nitrate for about 30 bucks. It's about 2.50 a pound if you buy it in smaller amounts. It'd be pretty hard to actually tailor a recipe from scratch with misleading names like "RAW Phosphorous". Raw phosphorous should be phosphoric acid, not mono-ammonium phosphate.
Also, all those ammonium based salts suggest these products are for use with soil.
For example, I can get a 50 pound bag of calcium nitrate for about 30 bucks. It's about 2.50 a pound if you buy it in smaller amounts. It'd be pretty hard to actually tailor a recipe from scratch with misleading names like "RAW Phosphorous". Raw phosphorous should be phosphoric acid, not mono-ammonium phosphate.
Also, all those ammonium based salts suggest these products are for use with soil.
Dirty Jerz
Well-Known Member
There for hydroponic use.
churchhaze
Well-Known Member
Look at their "RAW Potassium" Product. Nothing on the page says what it actually is, but there's a pretty good hint:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NPK-Industries-RAW-POTASSIUM-Power-2oz-Sulfate-Fully-Soluable-Supplement-/281106173428?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item41733bcdf4
"Naturally produced multi-nutrient fertilizer rich in potassium and sulfur. This grade of Potassium is formulated for maximum water solubility."
This product is potassium sulfate and they charge over 10 dollars for 2oz!
When I search ebay for potassium sulfate, I get this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sulfate-of-Potash-Potassium-Sulfate-Organic-5-Pounds-/370416877459?pt=Fertilizer_Soil_Amendments&hash=item563e90ff93
5 Pounds of it for 7 dollars.
Not only is it way cheaper just buying it as a chemical, I don't even use potassium sulfate in my formulations. I use potassium nitrate, mono potassium phosphate, and potassium hydroxide.
I get enough sulfate through magnesium sulfate. No need to boost the sulfate level any more. (sulfate is generally used as the "freedom" variable when designing hydroponic formulas.)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NPK-Industries-RAW-POTASSIUM-Power-2oz-Sulfate-Fully-Soluable-Supplement-/281106173428?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item41733bcdf4
"Naturally produced multi-nutrient fertilizer rich in potassium and sulfur. This grade of Potassium is formulated for maximum water solubility."
This product is potassium sulfate and they charge over 10 dollars for 2oz!
When I search ebay for potassium sulfate, I get this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sulfate-of-Potash-Potassium-Sulfate-Organic-5-Pounds-/370416877459?pt=Fertilizer_Soil_Amendments&hash=item563e90ff93
5 Pounds of it for 7 dollars.
Not only is it way cheaper just buying it as a chemical, I don't even use potassium sulfate in my formulations. I use potassium nitrate, mono potassium phosphate, and potassium hydroxide.
I get enough sulfate through magnesium sulfate. No need to boost the sulfate level any more. (sulfate is generally used as the "freedom" variable when designing hydroponic formulas.)
churchhaze
Well-Known Member
Names like "RAW Phosphorous" and "RAW Nitrogen" mislead people into thinking they're somehow mixing and matching isolated elements.
If you really had raw potassium in metallic form, it would explode violently if you put it in water.
If you really had raw potassium in metallic form, it would explode violently if you put it in water.
Shaggzendo
Member
I got a sample pack of raw, its got little recipes for different problems like silica kelp and humic acid for "root structure" or b vitamins and kelp for stress, the problem is that they say raw but they all are mixes, like bvitamins is mag sul and 1%b vits, that's why they have "recipes" ima try it on one plant to see
d0rk2dafullest
Well-Known Member
I use RAW Phosphorus. i use as a supplement as i see phos deficiencies in my plants, the supplement helped and solved my deficiency problem.
I really like the stuff but i cannot find a cheaper alternative at the moment. as someone has said earlier a raw product would b phosphoric acid. if you can show me a link where i can get some of that and is it the same thing? im asking because as a user of the RAW phosphorus i like what it's doing for me. and if there is a cheaper alternative please direct me in that direction.
I'd like to replicate the results and also save money. to my knowledge, phosphorus helps promote thicker branching and root uptake for a plant. in case someone was wondering what it did for me.
After using this product i have seen much improvements.
http://www.phosphatesfacts.org/uses_apps.asp
if u go to (under technical uses) agriculture, then fertilizer, you will find monoammonium phosphate and not phosphoric acid used as a fertilizer.
And i do use this product for hydroponic uses. I use Sunshine Mix #4 with great results. im not trying to sell this product whatsoever i am just stating that it works and it has worked for me and that is why i use it, and i would like to know a cheaper source for this stuff.
I really like the stuff but i cannot find a cheaper alternative at the moment. as someone has said earlier a raw product would b phosphoric acid. if you can show me a link where i can get some of that and is it the same thing? im asking because as a user of the RAW phosphorus i like what it's doing for me. and if there is a cheaper alternative please direct me in that direction.
I'd like to replicate the results and also save money. to my knowledge, phosphorus helps promote thicker branching and root uptake for a plant. in case someone was wondering what it did for me.
After using this product i have seen much improvements.
http://www.phosphatesfacts.org/uses_apps.asp
if u go to (under technical uses) agriculture, then fertilizer, you will find monoammonium phosphate and not phosphoric acid used as a fertilizer.
And i do use this product for hydroponic uses. I use Sunshine Mix #4 with great results. im not trying to sell this product whatsoever i am just stating that it works and it has worked for me and that is why i use it, and i would like to know a cheaper source for this stuff.
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churchhaze
Well-Known Member
RAW Phosphorous is pure mono ammonium phosphate. NH4.H2PO4
Any brand of mono ammonium phosphate will be the same product as RAW phosphorous, so you can basically look for the cheapest one.
Any brand of mono ammonium phosphate will be the same product as RAW phosphorous, so you can basically look for the cheapest one.
Maine Buds
Well-Known Member
Try the web page kelp4less. Lots of good stuff at great prices. I use the s.o.p powder it makes a difference.
Tejashidrow
Well-Known Member
Raw is just a name
Only confusing for those who won't look past the name.
Sure you MAY be able to source all the salts yourself
But I don't need 10 pounds of potassium!!!
This is a great line especially for smaller growers.
This stuff rocks!!!!
Only confusing for those who won't look past the name.
Sure you MAY be able to source all the salts yourself
But I don't need 10 pounds of potassium!!!
This is a great line especially for smaller growers.
This stuff rocks!!!!
Flowki
Well-Known Member
The uk prices on the raw stuff was not worth it at all, once worked out it was the same or more as buying liquid base nutes etc but those are far less hassle to use. One would assume it's cheaper in America, everything is right, but you'd still likely have access to far cheaper soluble stuff else where.
Also some things like silica, when added completely alone have apparent draw backs. It isn't absorbed the same as with silica that is bound with K. Other elements added alone may also have similar drawbacks you'd have to check more on. I don't think it's as simple as mix actual pure silica with pure n+p+k+s etc in a ratio of your liking then just storing it all in a container. You can't store Silica/Ca-P from my reading as they will react at some point so you are going to need some kind of 3 part mix every time (after the initial 6+ stock mix).
As the the other guy said most of the hassle can be removed by a good base neut especially if it already contains sulfur and magnesium as that potentially only leaves you needing to add calcium nitrate for a 2 part mix. I think jacks has a base neut that can achieve that.
Also some things like silica, when added completely alone have apparent draw backs. It isn't absorbed the same as with silica that is bound with K. Other elements added alone may also have similar drawbacks you'd have to check more on. I don't think it's as simple as mix actual pure silica with pure n+p+k+s etc in a ratio of your liking then just storing it all in a container. You can't store Silica/Ca-P from my reading as they will react at some point so you are going to need some kind of 3 part mix every time (after the initial 6+ stock mix).
As the the other guy said most of the hassle can be removed by a good base neut especially if it already contains sulfur and magnesium as that potentially only leaves you needing to add calcium nitrate for a 2 part mix. I think jacks has a base neut that can achieve that.
jsquared89
Member
lol at this thread and this product. Shit like this is a fucking joke.
since1991
Well-Known Member
RAW Solubles is extremely expensive for what they are offering. Bigger growers..just buy salt fertilizer or Jacks (salt fertilizer). The RAW thing is for hobbyists clearly. That being said..I like the dry powder biostimulants. But I get them from kelp4less for alot cheaper. The dry fulvic is good. The kelp..The Yucca..And the soy protein hydrolysate (amino acid). A couple pounds of each will last quite awhile for me. Weekly foliars.
ShedsAndTents
Active Member
I can agree that the prices of these products at least on amazon are not fairly priced. But it's the difference between a 300$ ballast and a 60$ ballast or a 990$ Valoya and a 180$ Viparspectra.
These Pioneers take their job seriously and investigate, research and develop wonderful products and after spending Time and MONEY to figure out what works best they release it to make their money back only to have assholes reverse engineer it and sell it mass production style and undercut the market. With these fertilizer salts in particular, hydroponic marketing does take its toll.
It's the same as the age old debate of Chinese made and "Product of USA"
If no one bought the Pioneers product and only went to buy the cheaper market undercut than we would lose out on the R&D department of wonderful businesses and the advances in the industry would halt. If this continues, we will have discouraged any growth in our favorite market and stay complacent.
Guaranteed analysis, customer support and above all research and development are what the "extra cost" goes to.
Go to Miracle gro's website and try to find a guaranteed analysis. They change from state to state. Using urea (anhydrous ammonia (NH3) and potassium nitrate) as a main source of nitrogen is a joke. Ammonium Sulfate is both sustainable and more effective at Nitrogen delivery. Phosphoric acid? Your joking right? You mean hydroponic Ph down? Not a source of phosphorus for plants. Phosphorus gets locked up in soil the easiest, meaning it creates a bond with soil particles and becomes unavailable for plants and you want to use solid phosphorus as a fertilizer?? Just No.
Mono-ammonium Phosphate (MAP) the bond between ammonium and phosphate is strong enough to stay water soluble. Next you're going to say rock phosphate (Only soluble with Ph <5.5 and non sustainable) or even calcium phosphate (95% water insoluble IT'S OUR BONES) can be a fertilizer because you saw the word phosphorus in it.
Support research and development, it's the real reason THC came up from <10% to an astonishing 35% not a few decades of breeding. It's (Cannabis) been around longer than our collective sources of information, if THC is used as a self defense mechanism it would have raised the content all on it's own just like it figured out how to make it and use it, it could have figured out how to synthesize it even in low nutrient profiles. Just like microbe synergy.
If you can't afford 10$ for 200 Gallons, I sincerely believe you are either in the wrong hobby, or are very wasteful as I can get away with using <50 gallons per plant on a 4 week veg and 8 week Flower. 36 is something I strived for in an economical grow. (Flushing is a leisure not available to those with a water tank as a source, as well as "Runoff" why flush excess salts instead of using them, Why even get to the point of an excess?)
N+P+K+Kelp+CaMg= 50$ for 200 Gallons. why is this an even an issue when 1 Liter of Advanced nutrients (Yes, it's used commercially too) at 4ml/L makes 64 Gallons and Costs 35 for the GMB and 120$ for con/sensi Grow A+B and Bloom A+B??
Conclusion:
Use what works for you but understand how it could hurt you if someone was buying the "same" product from someone else at half the cost. I mean, you cared for and spent time and resources to create something your proud of and just because someone caught a seed in your bud and grew it with miracle gro, they could undercut you.
Roll It Up my friends.
These Pioneers take their job seriously and investigate, research and develop wonderful products and after spending Time and MONEY to figure out what works best they release it to make their money back only to have assholes reverse engineer it and sell it mass production style and undercut the market. With these fertilizer salts in particular, hydroponic marketing does take its toll.
It's the same as the age old debate of Chinese made and "Product of USA"
If no one bought the Pioneers product and only went to buy the cheaper market undercut than we would lose out on the R&D department of wonderful businesses and the advances in the industry would halt. If this continues, we will have discouraged any growth in our favorite market and stay complacent.
Guaranteed analysis, customer support and above all research and development are what the "extra cost" goes to.
Go to Miracle gro's website and try to find a guaranteed analysis. They change from state to state. Using urea (anhydrous ammonia (NH3) and potassium nitrate) as a main source of nitrogen is a joke. Ammonium Sulfate is both sustainable and more effective at Nitrogen delivery. Phosphoric acid? Your joking right? You mean hydroponic Ph down? Not a source of phosphorus for plants. Phosphorus gets locked up in soil the easiest, meaning it creates a bond with soil particles and becomes unavailable for plants and you want to use solid phosphorus as a fertilizer?? Just No.
Mono-ammonium Phosphate (MAP) the bond between ammonium and phosphate is strong enough to stay water soluble. Next you're going to say rock phosphate (Only soluble with Ph <5.5 and non sustainable) or even calcium phosphate (95% water insoluble IT'S OUR BONES) can be a fertilizer because you saw the word phosphorus in it.
Support research and development, it's the real reason THC came up from <10% to an astonishing 35% not a few decades of breeding. It's (Cannabis) been around longer than our collective sources of information, if THC is used as a self defense mechanism it would have raised the content all on it's own just like it figured out how to make it and use it, it could have figured out how to synthesize it even in low nutrient profiles. Just like microbe synergy.
If you can't afford 10$ for 200 Gallons, I sincerely believe you are either in the wrong hobby, or are very wasteful as I can get away with using <50 gallons per plant on a 4 week veg and 8 week Flower. 36 is something I strived for in an economical grow. (Flushing is a leisure not available to those with a water tank as a source, as well as "Runoff" why flush excess salts instead of using them, Why even get to the point of an excess?)
N+P+K+Kelp+CaMg= 50$ for 200 Gallons. why is this an even an issue when 1 Liter of Advanced nutrients (Yes, it's used commercially too) at 4ml/L makes 64 Gallons and Costs 35 for the GMB and 120$ for con/sensi Grow A+B and Bloom A+B??
Conclusion:
Use what works for you but understand how it could hurt you if someone was buying the "same" product from someone else at half the cost. I mean, you cared for and spent time and resources to create something your proud of and just because someone caught a seed in your bud and grew it with miracle gro, they could undercut you.
Roll It Up my friends.
ShedsAndTents
Active Member
All fertilizers are salts, and if you're talking standard agriculture sure but I beg you to find me a decent Cannabis mass cultivator that uses isolated salts to fertilize. Why? Because research is important to "Care-takers" Advanced Nutrients, as much as i've come to dislike them, is very popular in large scale commercial cultivation. S.J. Enterprises’ Cyco Platinum Series is another. These are facts not assumptions.
Biostimulants are the bomb, but do you know why? Did you have to google it? Do you think assumed it would just work or was money spent to research it? SuperThrive is an exception however, they didn't know why until recently about B-vitamins.
ShedsAndTents
Active Member
Just a little perspective of the benefits of R&D
https://www.easy-grow.co.uk/learning-from-the-dutch-preventing-powdery-mildew/
You know what happens when you have Idiots running the R&D?
https://puyallup.wsu.edu/lcs/
No credible citations, No in depth results, and what seems like a bunch of hate.
Washington State University, Sounds legit right? Or maybe it's a bunch of people reverse engineering what seems to work just to benefit themselves.
Here's a direct contradiction to WSU's B vitamin hate, but this time substantially more credible.
https://phys.org/news/2017-01-vitamin-b12-power-broker-microbes.html
https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/life-science/cell-culture/learning-center/media-expert/thiamine.html
Again, my main point is selfishness breeds ignorance. And ignorance creates a terrible source for information especially for us (the consumer) who have no feasible ability to research and develop. Growing costs money period. Growing good costs more.
I apologize for if I have come off harsh but i've once developed something I was proud of and showed it off only to get undercut as I couldn't beat the price others could manufacture at.
https://www.easy-grow.co.uk/learning-from-the-dutch-preventing-powdery-mildew/
You know what happens when you have Idiots running the R&D?
https://puyallup.wsu.edu/lcs/
No credible citations, No in depth results, and what seems like a bunch of hate.
Washington State University, Sounds legit right? Or maybe it's a bunch of people reverse engineering what seems to work just to benefit themselves.
Here's a direct contradiction to WSU's B vitamin hate, but this time substantially more credible.
https://phys.org/news/2017-01-vitamin-b12-power-broker-microbes.html
https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/life-science/cell-culture/learning-center/media-expert/thiamine.html
Again, my main point is selfishness breeds ignorance. And ignorance creates a terrible source for information especially for us (the consumer) who have no feasible ability to research and develop. Growing costs money period. Growing good costs more.
I apologize for if I have come off harsh but i've once developed something I was proud of and showed it off only to get undercut as I couldn't beat the price others could manufacture at.