Testing the old "Defoliation" Argument

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
It is indeed (although "receiving absolutely no light" is never the case unless the light is off, else you wouldn't be able to see the leaf either). Look into mobile vs immobile plant nutrients, just a random example: http://masteringhorticulture.blogspot.nl/2012/01/mobile-vs-immobile-nutrients.html and xylem and phloem translocation from sources to sinks.

http://www.biologyreference.com/Ta-Va/Translocation.html

Translocation is the movement of materials from leaves to other tissues throughout the plant. Plants produce carbohydrates (sugars) in their leaves by photosynthesis, but nonphotosynthetic parts of the plant also require carbohydrates and other organic and nonorganic materials. For this reason, nutrients are translocated from sources (regions of excess carbohydrates, primarily mature leaves) to sinks (regions where the carbohydrate is needed). Some important sinks are roots, flowers, fruits, stems, and developing leaves. Leaves are particularly interesting in this regard because they are sinks when they are young and become sources later, when they are about [make that very very roughly] half grown.


As you can see the nonsense some defoliators claim about leaves costing energy (which is the same as claiming they become sinks) is just that, nonsense. Of course to create a new leaf energy is required captured by other leaves, they start out as sinks, but once it created enough chlorophyll to perform plenty of photosynthesis to capture enough energy for itself to grow larger and have energy left to spare with other new leaves/buds/roots it becomes a source. After the transition, during flowering, they are all sources (of energy and indeed reserves).

It also goes a little further than pouring nutes down the sink, the 'nutes' in the leaves are already processed ready to be transported and used. So in a way, you'd also be pouring light (electricity, money) down the sink. Now imagine a LED grower who defoliates :twisted:
 

purplehays1

Well-Known Member
so it appears that the defoliating slowed the vertical growth and increased lower growth, not unexpected. All plants look very happy and vigorous but the bushy one appears to be growing faster.

My test may be doomed, it it is going to be hard to account for the fact that the untrimmed plant is taking up twice as much space as the others now. Pic in journal.
 

Alexander Supertramp

Well-Known Member
Even if they were receiving absolutely no light wouldn't they still be beneficial by storing energy, transporting / moving goods, exchanging gases, etc...? Seems like cutting off a leaf is equivalent to pouring a little bit of your nutes down the sink...
Exactly! And just because our eyes see a shadow does not mean that area of the leaf is not receiving light. Plants see light differently than we humans do.
 

CaretakerDad

Well-Known Member
"My test may be doomed, it it is going to be hard to account for the fact that the untrimmed plant is taking up twice as much space as the others now."

It would seem to me that the test is complete......just sayin' :weed:
 

purplehays1

Well-Known Member
It would seem to me that the test is complete......just sayin' :weed:

Well unless the bush yields 2x the other ones then its not worth the space.

The test may be doomed because i cant control her and will have to trim her off the other 3. Don't confuse growing a large plant with lots of leaves with growing a lot of potent bud. This is not a test of whether a pot plant grows better with leaves, we all know it does, we are asking whether it BUDS more when it is leafy, who cares if u can grow a big leafy plant.
 
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purplehays1

Well-Known Member
Exactly! And just because our eyes see a shadow does not mean that area of the leaf is not receiving light. Plants see light differently than we humans do.
Ill show good picks of the bush when the lights come on. It takes all my willpower to not trim her. So many leaves they are doing battle, leaves on top of leaves on top of leaves. I trimmed the undergrowth on the 3rd plant, she looks good too, but def not growing like the bushy one.
 

MightyMike530

Well-Known Member
My test may be doomed, it it is going to be hard to account for the fact that the untrimmed plant is taking up twice as much space as the others now. Pic in journal.
You cant just stop the science in the middle of the experiment, see it through to the end.
 

BDOGKush

Well-Known Member
So we're talking something completely different than say lolipopping or clearing out the under canopy of a scrog, right? Sorry, I'm not quite understanding how you're referring to defoliation. You're removing fan leaves to expose buds with the theory that more light directly hitting a bud will increase yield?
 

purplehays1

Well-Known Member
You cant just stop the science in the middle of the experiment, see it through to the end.
I will try

You're removing fan leaves to expose buds with the theory that more light directly hitting a bud will increase yield?
Basically, but its more the theory that u can get more light where it is needed. I dont think light on the bud sites is the direct cause, i think it will be that the bud sites will be much longer and connect to each other up the stem because the entire branch of new growth will be getting light. I have never tried this but was recommended by many friends for small areas. The plant have responded very well. They are not as tall, but they have formed what i guess ill call an under canopy. Under the 8 main tops that have been defoliated there is a thick undergrowth. My thinking is that the main tops will still bulk up as normal but the lower bud sites/growth will bulk up more.
 

BDOGKush

Well-Known Member
Basically, but its more the theory that u can get more light where it is needed. I dont think light on the bud sites is the direct cause, i think it will be that the bud sites will be much longer and connect to each other up the stem because the entire branch of new growth will be getting light. I have never tried this but was recommended by many friends for small areas. The plant have responded very well. They are not as tall, but they have formed what i guess ill call an under canopy. Under the 8 main tops that have been defoliated there is a thick undergrowth. My thinking is that the main tops will still bulk up as normal but the lower bud sites/growth will bulk up more.
Gotcha' I've never tried it but I do clear out everything under my scrog screen not sure if that makes me part of the defoliator club, I try not to mess with my fan leaves.
 

purplehays1

Well-Known Member
Gotcha' I've never tried it but I do clear out everything under my scrog screen not sure if that makes me part of the defoliator club, I try not to mess with my fan leaves.
What you are describing is what i have always done, i never used a screen but would stake the plants and pull them and tie them down. Clear all the lower growth and keep an even canopy, this is what i am doing with the 4th plant. Only remove leaves that are blocking top bud sites.
 

Jbone77

Well-Known Member
Plant does use them, this Jbone kid doesn't have a clue.
Well princess, I questioned what he was saying, I didnt make the statement you non reading sum bitch, and I even ended the statement saying I dont remove leaves. Il type slower from now on so your old non growin ass doesnt need to read so fast. And when you learn that lumens are meaningless to plants and that spectrum is important let me know. Dumb ass
 

jacksthc

Well-Known Member
hi jbone77 defoliation does work and can increase your yield a lot but to be honest you need to have been growing for years before you try this and even then so many growers mess this up I would say defoliation is not a great way to train your plants because of this, TBH topping and LST can you give you some great results with less problems
 

Jbone77

Well-Known Member
hi jbone77 defoliation does work and can increase your yield a lot but to be honest you need to have been growing for years before you try this and even then so many growers mess this up I would say defoliation is not a great way to train your plants because of this, TBH topping and LST can you give you some great results with less problems
What does any of this have to do with me? I could give a shit less if a guy defoliates or not, my question was to the guy who said a plant doesnt use fans after week 4 of flower but said you will stunt the plant if you remove too many, hello, if the plant doesnt use them you wouldnt stunt it, and then princess ben chimed in like I was endorsing defoliation. I dont remove fan leaves, I am a fan of topping princess style and supercropping and then let em go. I dont care if a guy thinks defoliation works, il have some fun with the thread but honestly IDGAF, its not my weed. lol. Defoliate away. But like you said, you need to be an experienced grower who has been growing for years to understand it, iv only been growing weed seriously since 99 so I dont have the experience to comprehend it yet. But atleast I am a grower and not like princess who grew a plant in 72 and another in 83 before trying an indoor plant under a street lamp in 85 and declared myself a guru. The funny thing is when these threads come up, princess ben will always chime in and try to sound clever and say something like "well just try it and see for yourself", this thread was doing exactly that, dude said fuck it, im gonna defoliate some and not others and see the difference, I can respect that, he wants to see for himself what the results are, but here we are , princess ben is talking shit to a guy who took his advice and said "fuck it, il see for myself ", that is pretty fuckin funny to me.
 

Alexander Supertramp

Well-Known Member
Ill show good picks of the bush when the lights come on. It takes all my willpower to not trim her. So many leaves they are doing battle, leaves on top of leaves on top of leaves. I trimmed the undergrowth on the 3rd plant, she looks good too, but def not growing like the bushy one.
so it appears that the defoliating slowed the vertical growth and increased lower growth, not unexpected. All plants look very happy and vigorous but the bushy one appears to be growing faster.

My test may be doomed, it it is going to be hard to account for the fact that the untrimmed plant is taking up twice as much space as the others now. Pic in journal.
Not doomed at all. Bet the big bitch will out yield the untrimmed plants by the sound of it. Thats only a fail for those lost souls that religiously believe in raping plants.
 

harris hawk

Well-Known Member
Hey chuck estevez. thought this site is for helping people with their growing issues. You do-not have to put people down or call names. People like you drives people away from this site - thought this was a friendly site. I feel sorry for you May God bless you unless you do not believe in God. What kind of names are you going to call me now?
 

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
Hey chuck estevez. thought this site is for helping people with their growing issues. You do-not have to put people down or call names. People like you drives people away from this site - thought this was a friendly site. I feel sorry for you May God bless you unless you do not believe in God. What kind of names are you going to call me now?
I didn't sneeze, no need to bless me. I would tell you to grow some balls, But balls are weak, so grow a vagina, those things can take a pounding.
and Like I said Earlier, I NEVER called you a name, I ASKED if you pulled that info out of your ass.
Jesus dude, learn some damn reading comprehension.
 
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