New DIY Nutrient Thread

[LurchLurkin]

Ok so this formulations is my own but feel free to use it. This makes a 1 gallon at 200x concentrate so adjust to your desired EC. It is based somewhat off of Fatmans nutrients. The program I used was hydrobuddy and the PPM may seem a little bit off especially in calcium since I based my calculations off my water which was something like 58ppm Ca and 14ppm Mg or so if I remember and maybe 4-20 S. Clearly the EC is super high too but that may also be based off my water in part but I suggest just adding and dosing as you would any other fertilizer i.e. ~300ppm for seedlings up to ~1000ppm for mature

You could also have a brewers(as in beer brewing) test done of your water and download hydrobuddy for free and just put in the desired ppm and chemicals I've listed to see what you would come up with.

This is closer to 3-1-4 and designed for use in aeroponics with a tighter spacing in a SCROG, higher temps low humidity and high CO2. Fatman used a ~320ppm N for veg and ~285ppm N for flowering but I think either recipe could be used all the way through.

Note: the recipe contains a small amount of ammonium which is not directly useable by the plant. This can only be used if you have nitrogen fixing bacteria present which I do not recommend in a hydro grow. These bacteria are only beneficial when there is NH4 available while you are lacking in NO3 and can be detrimental to plant growth if enough NO3 is provided.

With that in mind, it is difficult to get a higher nitrogen content without raising your calcium super high and then needing to add more magnesium to maintain the 2:1 Ca:Mg ratio.

First Recipe:
Values calculated for the preparation of 1 gallons

Soln - Chemical Name Chemical Formula Grams
A - Potassium Nitrate KNO3 515.153
B - Manganese Sulfate (Monohydrate) MnSO4.H2O 11.646
B - Boric Acid H3BO3 21.653
B - Copper Sulfate (pentahydrate) CuSO4.5H2O 2.975
B - Sodium Molybdate (Dihydrate) Na2MoO4.2H2O 0.172
A - Iron DTPA FeDTPA 106.1
B - Magnesium Sulfate [Epsom Salt](Heptahydrate) MgSO4.7H2O 1013.538
B - Potassium Monobasic Phosphate KH2PO4 273.637
B - Zinc Sulfate (Heptahydrate) ZnSO4.7H2O 16.646
A - Yara Calcium Nitrate Yara_Ca(NO3)2 1021.991

PPM
N (NO3-) 288.669
K 371.976
P 82.256
Mg 150
Ca 314.482
S 186.045
Fe 10
Zn 5
B 5
Cu 1
Mo 0.09
Na 21.043
Si 0
Cl 3
Mn 5
N (NH4+) 14.849

EC=3.2 mS/cm



I recommend supplementing with Si but it is incompatible with the nutrient mixes so it would need to be added on its own. I like Botanicare because they use basically a 1mL-1L formula recommendation except I would recommend it all the way through the grow with each weekly res change as opposed to their recommendation of just through flower. It's used to strengthen the cell walls and that's def best done during vegetative growth too.

AN sells a supplement but they want to use like 2mL-1L and it's way more expensive. They're both just mixtures of sodium silicate and potassium silicate and I think some Potash or something so they will raise the pH.

 

[churchhaze]

Check how that compares to my flagship mix #15.

Although it may contradict what I've said in some threads (I must have been high), a 2:1 Ca:Mg ratio is a bit too high imo. 3:1 or even 4:1 is usually fine.

 

[vostok]

I'm so glad you posted that scam here: my response is a lot less technical,
1: undo fly
2: insert penis to a large jar
3: pee into jar till about full
4: Sniff for traces of ammonium, nod head
5: allow to cool
Method:
1: take 1 teaspoon of cool urine per week, mix to 1 gallon of local water
2: and feed your plant with 'free' high (N) plant food 1x time per week!

 

[churchhaze]

Troll.

I'm so glad you posted that scam here: my response is a lot less technical,
1: undo fly
2: insert penis to a large jar
3: pee into jar till about full
4: Sniff for traces of ammonium, nod head
5: allow to cool
Method:
1: take 1 teaspoon of cool urine per week, mix to 1 gallon of local water
2: and feed your plant with 'free' high (N) plant food 1x time per week!

 

[LurchLurkin]

Scam? Are either of us selling chemicals? Or for that matter, with some of these chemicals..are we selling PPE? Just discussing custom nutrient formulations. FWIW your body produces ammonium which ends up eventually in your urine as a byproduct of digesting meat. Too high of levels in your blood will kill you though (Atkins diet).

Now church, you have a 135.41-59-214 NPK, That's a 2.3-1-3.6. How does she handle? I keep hearing N is the most common deficiency and yours is pretty low relatively and seems closer to what a lot of people run for flowering albeit I'm not convinced you really need to lower N. Are you growing in soil? I'd be interested to see if you we to add some ammonium and nitrogen fixing bacteria to the mix to see if you got better results.

I actually tried using magnesium nitrate heptahydrate to try and keep Mg high while raising N but then I couldn't keep an S level worth a crap and the N gains weren't really anything and magnesium nitrate heptahydrate needs to be synthesized (hard to buy it).

Using KOH is a great idea for raising your K and as your sulfur is much lower you could substitute in sulfuric acid as a pH down to raise your S too. SO4 + Ca --> CaSO4 which is gypsum and can be absorbed by plants.

Albeit, neither of our formulations are close to what Jorge Cervantes recommends. My trace elements are through the roof but I think Fatman did that on purpose because they're not chelated. I'm unsure at this point if fulvic acid or humic acid would chelate them and what effects those would have. I uploaded a chart from his book.

Your micro formula is much lower and you don't have any zinc. Have you seen any of this?

Here would be if S was too low(It may be just a hair low in my formulation too)

These pictures don't do the symptoms justice. Without zinc new growth will have twisted leaf blades. Zinc sulfate could be used in small amounts to both boost your zinc.

You could use potassium sulfate in combo with or without potassium hydroxide to see what you get. Although if you have problems epsom salt or gypsum would help with S.

ETA: People...make sure you have measuring equipment to the accuracy necessary to produce whatever measurements you need. Most scales that go to a tenth of a gram are only accurate to 1 gram and a scale that goes to a hundredth of a gram is only accurate to a tenth.

 

[churchhaze]

In order to add more N without adding ammonium, I need to also raise Ca or K, which you already seem to understand pretty well.

The thing is that I've never actually experienced nitrogen deficiency with this mix. If anything, it's a bit too high in calcium, or needs extra magnesium, which makes it hard to add nitrates.

For tap water, I don't use the KOH and actually use nitric acid to get pH down, so take my NPK ratio with a grain of salt.

The thing with zinc is that I've never actually needed to add it. I don't know why. I feel like zinc was a lie from the very beginning! They zinc conspiracy is lying to us! Sometimes when I feel lucky, I throw a zinc penny into each DWC tank, but not this time.

To give you some background, I've been testing these formulas for years, and I've basically stopped at mix #15 with only minor changes. The biggest change I'd want to make is lowering calcium somehow while keeping nitrogen and potassium the same. This requires either nitric acid or magnesium nitrate.

 

[churchhaze]

Just as a note, CaSO4 is very insoluble, and is usually found as a solid precipitant if sulfate levels are too high. This is usually not an issue, because most hydroponic solutions are relatively low in S (30-60ppm), and thus it's usually the "freedom variable".

The main precipitant to worry about in hydroponics is calcium phosphate, because of the obvious high requirements of both and the tendency to form solid precipitants..

 

[churchhaze]

Also, the more dilute you make the stock solutions, the lower instrumentation error will be.

You don't need more precision than 1mL.

In general, mixing stock solutions and using a syringe to add by volume is almost always going to be more precise than measuring dry salts directly into the reservoir. This is especially true with chemicals you need very little of (like molybdenum).

Don't even bother trying to measure tiny amounts of sodium molybdate. Mix a stock solution first, then using the mass concentration of the stock solution (g/mL), add the amount of mass you want in mL using the conversion.

If you have a 60mL syringe, it's likely 1mL precise (graduations), so 30mL will be more precise than 10mL with 3 times the concentration.

People...make sure you have measuring equipment to the accuracy necessary to produce whatever measurements you need. Most scales that go to a tenth of a gram are only accurate to 1 gram and a scale that goes to a hundredth of a gram is only accurate to a tenth.

 

[LurchLurkin]

You might have some Zinc in your tap...you don't need much at all.

If you wanted to add N you could do it with Mg to get to 2.7NPK ratio which would bring Mg to 70ppm.

If you already have Nitric acid you just add in magnesium metal..which is dirt cheap compared to nitric acid. Do this in a glass beaker outside where brown smoke wont freak out your neighbors and don't smoke as it will out gas flammable hydrogen. Add a little at a time as it is a "violent" reaction

HNO3 + Mg --> Mg(NO3)2 + H2(gas) which is highly hygroscopic(absorbs water from air) and then goes to Mg(NO3)2 * 7H2O

Don't get the Magnesium wet...Mg+water = boom. Also, don't get Nitric acid on yourself as I'm sure you know lol.

Whatever your nitric acid weighs multiply that by 0.x with x being the concentration. Divide that by the molar mass of HNO3 (I think it's like 63 grams per mole) and divide that by two (2:1 ratio) then multiply by 24 (I think molar mass of Mg) and add that much Mg to the acid. You really can't add too much, as any excess just wont precipitate and you can fish it out after everything dries and save for later or throw it in some water from a distance for fun.

2.5L of highly concentrated Nitric acid (~$100) and a block of Mg(~$5?) will make over a kilo of magnesium nitrate heptahydrate

I understand what you're saying with the CaSO4..if you use sulfuric acid or other sulfate containing chemicals..(Magnesium sulfate in your solution is the biggest culprit) it will push the equilibrium towards precipitate but if you were to use a different acid or Magnesium Nitrate Heptahydrate it wouldn't. This would also boost your N by 80ppm (if Mg is 40) It's solubility is listed at 0.21g/100L at 20C but its solubility goes down with increased temperature. 0.21g is 210mg/100L or 2100mg/L which is way more than you could need but I'm not sure what temps you're running.

Nitrogen fixing bacteria will change ammonium to a form the plants can use but if there is enough soluble nitrates already there they can actually lower the yield. That's how you can find out if you have enough nitrogen..yield will improve if you add bacteria and ammonium or stay the same or decrease..improvement means you need more N.

Albeit, this is ALL just a guessing game and it all varies with conditions and plants and there's a range of mixes that will work so good you wont notice the difference.

Yes, good call on the concentrate solutions..adding by weight unless you're in a huge factory with huge reservoirs would be near impossible...outside of using lab grade equipment lol..which would still be a pain in the butt.

 

[churchhaze]

I really can't see myself mixing a block of Mg into 2.5L of concentrated nitric acid!! I'd be on TSA's list, that's for sure!! lol.

Naw, I don't even want to bother with nitric acid above 30%. I try not to need nitric acid as much as possible, but sometimes it seems to be just what the doctor ordered. I would definitely rather buy magnesium nitrate. The problem here... of course.... is that I would then be reducing my sulfate level to 0ppm.

In the end, no matter what combinations I've tried, I seem to be bound by the empirical ratios of the macro salts, and pH needing to be near 5.8.

 

[LurchLurkin]

Welcome to the list

I wasn't able to really find magnesium nitrate and that's why I didn't recommend it. Most people I didn't think would be able to synthesize it.

The only way I can think to compensate is to use potassium sulfate in lieu of potassium hydroxide if you're going to use magnesium nitrate in lieu of magnesium sulfate.

If a complete replacement for potassium sulfate in lieu of potassium hydroxide raises your sulfate level too high (getting too tired for the math) Just do a partial replacement...but Hydrobuddy doesn't like that lol.

I'm not aware of any problem with a 2:1 Ca:Mg ratio?

 

[churchhaze]

If it works, there's no problem with any ratio. Like you said, this is really all just a guessing game. It's possible to throw all theory and math out the window and design a perfectly viable nutrient solution through guess and check.

Hoagland formula has less magnesium and more calcium than my mix, and I've been inching down the amount of calcium in the hoagland formula, hence the low amount of N.

 

[wristychronicles]

You guys are doing exactly what I'm doing. Except I run a bulk base with a trace I trust to help simplify, I geek out with a shelf full of my "additives" i top off with things like pot.nitrate, mono potassium phosphate, calcium and mag, potassium hydroxide..what ever I can get my hands on and safely run. It cost me like 2.35$ or something I once figured from "seedtoweed" more recently I've added things like idole 3, naa, ga3,kinetin

 

[LurchLurkin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you're doing tissue culture clones do any of those hormones have a positive effect? I believe with a foliar spray of chitan and triacontanol (Basically the same stuff Dick Stoner sells for $60 a quart) you can get some good results but I'm not sure about any of the other additives.

I'd be interested in seeing some experiments though with control groups.

 

[wristychronicles]

indole3 through veg, foliar. induce cytokines following. large scale tissue culture lol. driving the plant manually

 

[JointOperation]

TROLL? lol URINE actually works for a nutrient .. its not a joke.

but ya.. DIY nutes is a great idea.. im buying salts and shit next harvest.. I have a book I made.. with a list of about 30-50 different nute DIY Reciepes I got most of them from a friend. but I haven't tried it yet.

 

[churchhaze]

He came to a thread about dry salt recipes, called our dry salt recipes a "scam", and then suggested using something that works terribly in hydroponics, urine.

Urine is high in urea, which sources nitrogen in ammoniacal form. In hydroponics, you want the majority of your N to be in nitrate form. Without a soil medium or lime amended potting mix, nitrifying bacteria are not able to effectively convert ammoniacal form N into nitrate form N. Also, anmmoniacal forms of nitrogen antagonize K since they are both +1 charged ions.

And how do you measure a formula of urine when the contents of the urine changes dependinig on what you eat? This thread is about DIY formulations using dry salts.

I hightly recommend getting the salts and trying your recipes. You'll be dialed in to a good recipe just as fast anyone who buys bottled nutes.

(I'd also like to mention that dry salts is cheaper and more convenient than human urine.... Would you put gallon jugs of piss in your store? Where would you get them? Human urine is more expensive than dry salts! Dry salts is dirt cheap, pun intended.)

TROLL? lol URINE actually works for a nutrient .. its not a joke.

but ya.. DIY nutes is a great idea.. im buying salts and shit next harvest.. I have a book I made.. with a list of about 30-50 different nute DIY Reciepes I got most of them from a friend. but I haven't tried it yet.

 

[chandi]

Trying to sort out the salts for a recipe and was wondering if it's advisable to use a trace elements combination like the JR Peters MOST instead of buying them all separately?
MOST: http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Jack-s-Professional/Jack-s-Pro/Specialty-Crop-Formulas/MOST.html
Are there better ones?

Also got a ratio question; I run jacks two part at 1.6:1:2.6, NPK, I just ran my normal bloom booster (also JR Peters, 1:3:2 NPK) earlier than usual, around week 2 and did notice better bud formations than usual. After reading through countless pages of fatman and uncle ben going back and forth on the preferred ratios I'm wondering if the 1:3:2 would exceed the yields with the lower P ratio? Or will i get eventually get N deficiencies and reduced uptake? Is there a consensus on this?

Thanks!
oh I would love to know what fatmans hydro business is if someone wouldn't mind PMing me.

 

[churchhaze]

For late flowering, 1:3:2 does seem to work for a lot of people. If you ask 100 people what NPK ratio is the best, you'll get 100 different answers.

1:1:1 works, 1:1:2 works, 3:2:3 works, 1:3:2 works. Lots of combinations are good. (as long as the plant looks good)

 

[chandi]

thanks church, switching back to my normal schedule after i noticed a little bit of tip curl after the 1:3:2.
what do you think of the trace elements combo? Seems to have everything without having to buy each one separately?