Is ph up and down needed for soil grows?

sunny747

Well-Known Member
The pH is largely influenced by nutrient concentrations and gradients in the soil. It's not the same pH value throughout the pot. That's actually a major advantage of using soil. By trying to steer the pH of the entire pot one can do often more harm than good as it kills that advantage, possibly causing lockout as a result.

Unless you use high pH tap water (or very low ph water and lower it with nutes) there's really no need to ph in soil, organic or 'salts', plant balances it as long as you fertilize the soil properly (same goes for hydro...). ph up and down is mostly needed if you over or miss-fertilize and cause a major difference in cation vs anion uptake.
I hear what you are saying and understand that soil buffers the PH. Every time I have an issue people ask me if I PH my nutes. I always run into problems as a newer grower. If you were using tap water with a high PPM and high PH (8.0) would you adjust PH when growing in soil?
 

cbuts05

Well-Known Member
I hear what you are saying and understand that soil buffers the PH. Every time I have an issue people ask me if I PH my nutes. I always run into problems as a newer grower. If you were using tap water with a high PPM and high PH (8.0) would you adjust PH when growing in soil?
I'm petty sure it depends..
I started recently watering with nutes and fertilizer..

Water was 7.2 I added some fertilizer which brought it up I believe and then some nutes which brought it to 6.2.. Then when I watered and checked my runoff it was 5.5.. I guess cause the soil had a Lil nutes too or something.. So for now I know I need my water to be around 6.5-6.8 because the last two times I watered my pH came out to 5.5 on runoff and I'm pretty sure it has to be 6-6.5 right ?

Can someone verify if I'm doing this Right.. I'm guessing since I used not so much fertilizer it kept it low a bit..so maybe I should have added more fertilizer? Cause it brings it up I think ( mine anyways)
 

cbuts05

Well-Known Member
I hear what you are saying and understand that soil buffers the PH. Every time I have an issue people ask me if I PH my nutes. I always run into problems as a newer grower. If you were using tap water with a high PPM and high PH (8.0) would you adjust PH when growing in soil?
I would probably use a couple drops of pH down if that's the pH before u water.. Have it around 6.5 I believe before u dump it into the plant.. Again somewhere verify
 

old shol4evr

Well-Known Member
yes ,there are some nutrients out there were you PH your water before you add nutrients,mine on the other hand you don't,add nutrient and all other additives then check ppm,ec ,PH .i grow in 1.1 ffof and pro mix ,i did soil ph at one time and Ph was right at 7 my plants like 6.3 to 6.8 but by noing this i always ph the finish product before feeding .i don't like using a lot of the Ph up or down so i adjust my additives to level it out to were i feed ,for instance i have taken everything that i use and individually in ro water which is 54 ppm were i get it and have mixed everything to see how much it raises my ppm ,i don't mess with my basic nutrients and adjust to get the Ph right or close not having to use so much of the Ph up or down.if you don't believe it just take some Ro water and add some cal mag or epsom salt and see how much it raises the ppm
 

cbuts05

Well-Known Member
yes ,there are some nutrients out there were you PH your water before you add nutrients,mine on the other hand you don't,add nutrient and all other additives then check ppm,ec ,PH .i grow in 1.1 ffof and pro mix ,i did soil ph at one time and Ph was right at 7 my plants like 6.3 to 6.8 but by noing this i always ph the finish product before feeding .i don't like using a lot of the Ph up or down so i adjust my additives to level it out to were i feed ,for instance i have taken everything that i use and individually in ro water which is 54 ppm were i get it and have mixed everything to see how much it raises my ppm ,i don't mess with my basic nutrients and adjust to get the Ph right or close not having to use so much of the Ph up or down.if you don't believe it just take some Ro water and add some cal mag or epsom salt and see how much it raises the ppm
I tbh don't know anything about ppm haha this is my first grow just starting to get the hang on this pH thing.. It should be around 6-6.5? Is 5.5 runoff or 5.3 runoff bad?
 

az2000

Well-Known Member
Every time you use it I believe.. The sauce used to calibrate can be expensive.. I recently purchased a bottle that was only $7 though,,, It's a 7.0 liquid that I also used to store the pen. I don't use 4.0. Just 7.0..
It's good to calibrate every time until you get an idea for how much it drifts. I do mine once a month because it doesn't drift that much. Plus, I use two inexpensive pens instead of a single expensive one. If they read substantially different it's a clue I need to calibrate sooner. (I'm also coming to the conclusion ph doesn't matter much in soil. If I settle on a particular nutrient and soil combination, a grow "style," I envision not even using these pens. But, it's too soon to tell.).

FYI: You can find inexpensive foil packs of ph calibration powder which is mixed with distilled water. It works surprisingly well. My $7 eTekCity PH-009 came with a 7.0 and 4.0 packets. I mixed them and they retained their ph for as long as I kept the mixture (6-8 months). I was able to compare the 7.0 with some BlueLab calibration solution. It was always correct. You can find them on Amazon and eBay. Often shipped from a Chinese seller (requiring a month to arrive).
 

az2000

Well-Known Member
I tbh don't know anything about ppm haha this is my first grow just starting to get the hang on this pH thing.. It should be around 6-6.5? Is 5.5 runoff or 5.3 runoff bad?
Runoff ph is notoriously inaccurate. It's only useful if you measure it every time and watch the *trend*. That trend can keep you ahead of a salt-buildup (acidic soil, nute lockout) problem. It closely correlates to runoff ppm, so it's good to monitor both as a trend.

Google for "NCSU pour-through method." This is the only reliable runoff measurement. It's more time consuming than most of us would do on a regular basis. But, those steps explain why casual runoff PH isn't accurate. The solution we pour in doesn't have enough time to equalize to the soil's ph (or, it's chemical/mineral interactions). We get more runoff which dilutes the ph which resulted from that equalization.
 

undercovergrow

Well-Known Member
The pH is largely influenced by nutrient concentrations and gradients in the soil. It's not the same pH value throughout the pot. That's actually a major advantage of using soil. By trying to steer the pH of the entire pot one can do often more harm than good as it kills that advantage, possibly causing lockout as a result.

Unless you use high pH tap water (or very low ph water and lower it with nutes) there's really no need to ph in soil, organic or 'salts', plant balances it as long as you fertilize the soil properly (same goes for hydro...). ph up and down is mostly needed if you over or miss-fertilize and cause a major difference in cation vs anion uptake.
imo, PH doesn't matter in soil; however, i'm in the process now of determining if that original conclusion based on many months of studying and growing (with and without PH measurements) is correct. there is one plant that is definitely showing PH problems though while everything else is fine. can you elaborate please? specifically regarding your definition of fertilizing the soil properly. thank you.

my 2 cents... being a noob with a first grow, Ph'ing makes a difference. I use RO from a water machine it's 6.0.. after nutes it drops down to 4.5-5.. add some GH ph up and test to 6-6.5... makes the plants healthy and happier...ph'ing helped turn my grow around ...they were not up taking the nutes (P&K).. I had lockout due to low Ph.... my soil is really good.. Recipe 420
because we lose certain nuances on-line in writing, let me first :-) and state this really is just a question. 8-)

how do you know if it makes a difference if this is your first grow? what empirical evidence do you have to support your statement? specifically, what problems were you having if you didn't start out PH'ing and what did PH do for the plant? thanks!
 

mr2shim

Well-Known Member
imo, PH doesn't matter in soil; however, i'm in the process now of determining if that original conclusion based on many months of studying and growing (with and without PH measurements) is correct. there is one plant that is definitely showing PH problems though while everything else is fine. can you elaborate please? specifically regarding your definition of fertilizing the soil properly. thank you.



because we lose certain nuances on-line in writing, let me first :-) and state this really is just a question. 8-)

how do you know if it makes a difference if this is your first grow? what empirical evidence do you have to support your statement? specifically, what problems were you having if you didn't start out PH'ing and what did PH do for the plant? thanks!
I'd like to add to this in stating that pH just doesn't matter. I haven't done it in YEARS (since my 2nd grow) I don't grow in soil anymore, all hydroponics and I really don't see the point in pH'ing. Most nutrients have pH buffers that keep your pH where it should be. PPM is far more important.
 

undercovergrow

Well-Known Member
I'd like to add to this in stating that pH just doesn't matter. I haven't done it in YEARS (since my 2nd grow) I don't grow in soil anymore, all hydroponics and I really don't see the point in pH'ing. Most nutrients have pH buffers that keep your pH where it should be. PPM is far more important.
would you say PPM applies to growing in soil too?
 

az2000

Well-Known Member
When you water your pot you are increasing the pH and as the pot dries out then pH will drop.
That's the opposite of what I've experienced. When I water, the soil ph is around 5.8-6.0. As it dries, the ph rises to has high as 6.8. Which is why overwatering (keeping the soil too moist, instead of extreme wet/dry cyles) is bad.
 

az2000

Well-Known Member
would you say PPM applies to growing in soil too?
Measuring ppm of your nutrients can be useful to understand whether you should be using 1/2 tsp or 1 tsp of some product. Or, if you should reduce base nutrients to accomodate for a supplement.

Measureing runoff ppm is very useful to me. It correlates to salt buildup. I like to be in the 1100-1200 range (hanna 500 scale). If it gets up to 1250, I know I need to water for more runoff, or feed water only the next time, or some combination of weak nutes and runoff.

I can correlate the ppm of my nutrient solution with the ppm of the runoff. If I go higher, I'll see higher runoff ppm in 3-4 feedings. Or, if I don't get enough runoff for 3-4 feedings I'll see it go higher. (Thus, i'm balancing nutrient strength and volume.).
 

sunny747

Well-Known Member
would you say PPM applies to growing in soil too?
That could explain why I still get lockout even when PH'ing. I don't own a TDS, but I know my tap water is SUPER hard, high TDS.. My Hydro guy was telling me that the water just gets too congested for the nutes and cal/mag to work correctly.. Kind of like a traffic jam..
 

a senile fungus

Well-Known Member
I don't see this mentioned often enough IMO

When you water your pot you are increasing the pH and as the pot dries out then pH will drop.

That's biggie in soil growing...
That's the opposite of what I've experienced. When I water, the soil ph is around 5.8-6.0. As it dries, the ph rises to has high as 6.8. Which is why overwatering (keeping the soil too moist, instead of extreme wet/dry cyles) is bad.
Yes. If it's however 7.3 for example and then 6.5 after adding liquid nutes there's no need to change it further.

I've just searched through at least 20 pages of research articles on google looking for the info, can't find it right now. I'm mobile and busy, sorry!

Soil pH is affected by moisture content of that soil.

Maybe Sativied can expand on that.
 

az2000

Well-Known Member
That could explain why I still get lockout even when PH'ing. I don't own a TDS, but I know my tap water is SUPER hard, high TDS.. My Hydro guy was telling me that the water just gets too congested for the nutes and cal/mag to work correctly.. Kind of like a traffic jam..
I have that problem. If my water is 700ppm that doesn't leave much room for the ppms of nutrients.

I was using RO water and adding 2-3ml calmag to add back the lost minerals. Now I'm playing with 1:3 (tap:ro) to get about 200ppm starting water, and not add calmag. Too soon to tell.

Soil pH is affected by moisture content of that soil.
That's true. But, from what I've seen using a soil probe (not that probes are very accurate, but this is a $60 probe, not the two-prong cheap probes sold at Lowes), it goes higher as it dries.

Someone said it varies through the soil. That seems to be true. But, that seems to be be related to uneven drying, top to bottom.

I think my plants like the aerating effect of the probe. I notice when I don't use it the soil compacts. (Don't need to spend $60 to poke holes in the soil. Find a 1/4-3/8" rod, round the tip into a tapered point.).
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
That could explain why I still get lockout even when PH'ing. I don't own a TDS, but I know my tap water is SUPER hard, high TDS.. My Hydro guy was telling me that the water just gets too congested for the nutes and cal/mag to work correctly.. Kind of like a traffic jam..
Google Mulder's chart and nutrient antagonism.

Controlling PPM doesn't really apply to soil, but as someone pointed out it can still be useful to give an indication. If you don't overfertilize there's usually no need to even measure ppm though.

imo, PH doesn't matter in soil; however, i'm in the process now of determining if that original conclusion based on many months of studying and growing (with and without PH measurements) is correct. there is one plant that is definitely showing PH problems though while everything else is fine. can you elaborate please? specifically regarding your definition of fertilizing the soil properly. thank you.s!
Whether pH matters in soil is not an opinion, it either does or it doesn't. And it sure does, but it's a wide range which in combination with normal fluctuations and variation of ph level throughout the soil makes it unnecessary to control. It often leads to more problems. If you want pH control grow hydro. At most controlling it matters if the tap water is too high by itself, or after miss-fertilizing (giving too much of everything or too much of one or more elements) but if the tap is high and the ph drops from over-fertilizing one can simply give water only for a while. The uptake of some elements increases pH, others cause it to drop.

upload_2015-2-17_18-49-56.png <-not a dick pic mods.
Note the H+ and the OH- the plant releases to exchange with a useful element. The pH is a measure of the molar concentration of hydrogen ions.

A typical example is high P nutrients. P is an anion (negative charged) so to take it up the plant releases a positive hydrogen ions (H+). The concentration of H+ is what the pH level determines, the more H+, the lower the pH.

The nutrient elements, the ions (cations and anions) move throughout the pot, partly by a process called diffusion, partly by water uptake/movement. This results in different concentrations of nutrients throughout a soil container. That in turn (because certain ph values are better for take up of certain elements, which influence pH) leads to different pH values throughout the pot. Which in turn, as I mentioned earlier, is actually an advantage, there's always a spot in the pot where the plant can take up zinc, and a spot where it can take up N easily etc.etc.

By trying to steer the pH you take over the job from the plant and that doesn't always lead to a better situation (often not...). Also once you start controlling you generally have to continue doing so.

The pH value, in soil too, is important because certain elements are easier to take up within a certain pH range. It differs per element, there's not 1 specific optimal pH value, it's a range that includes all elements. A common mistake hydrogrowers make is keeping the ph strict on 5.8 while it's good when it fluctuates a little between low (good for micro uptake) and high (good for macro uptake).
 
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Sativied

Well-Known Member
Soil pH is affected by moisture content of that soil.

Maybe Sativied can expand on that.
Maybe, not with any certainty though. I heard often dry soil increases EC/ppm (which then yes would affect ph too). Ca for example depends a lot on water uptake, K's job is to enter the plant and suck up water (simply put). Moisture content, water uptake, influences nutrient uptake, while nutrient uptake influences water uptake and affects pH. It's all connected, it's what people refer to when they say the plant will regulate it itself. Since you do not have full control like in hydro, it's often better to let the plant do it then try to steer ph in soil.

Oh I see now why you asked, well, I can see how two people could get different results based on the nutrients in the pot.
 
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