Islam: Evil or misunderstood

[blazin waffles]

I guess he treats me differently because I'm a lady. Medicine must not care.

LOL, Prolly. . . . . . he's actually quite fun to talk with. . .never really talked with MM.

You should look at my journal! tell me watcha think!!

 

[mockingbird131313]

Right, and my position is that Islam isn't the evil, it's those that practice. So explain to me where i went off topic?
And if you could could you link that article you cited, i'd be interested in reading it.

You are a complete dunder-head. But, since you insist on being an idiot in public, I will help.

1. No one really cares what your position about Islam is. You are entitled to your own stupidity because this is a free country.
2. You went off topic when you decided to talk about Christianity in a discussion about muslims.
3. List the article? I did, it is AP wire story. The author is named. Do a Google search.
4. For further proof that Islam is evil read the Koran. The Koran quotes Mohammed telling his four sons this, (paraphrased in translation) "When you meet an infidel convert him. If you cannot convert an infidel, then enslave him. If you cannot enslave the infidel kill him." This is a common quote, so look it up yourself and learn something on your own.

 

[nickfury510]

You are a complete dunder-head. But, since you insist on being an idiot in public, I will help.

1. No one really cares what your position about Islam is. You are entitled to your own stupidity because this is a free country.
2. You went off topic when you decided to talk about Christianity in a discussion about muslims.
3. List the article? I did, it is AP wire story. The author is named. Do a Google search.
4. For further proof that Islam is evil read the Koran. The Koran quotes Mohammed telling his four sons this, (paraphrased in translation) "When you meet an infidel convert him. If you cannot convert an infidel, then enslave him. If you cannot enslave the infidel kill him." This is a common quote, so look it up yourself and learn something on your own.

can you tell me what chapter and sentence of the quaran this is in

 

[blazin waffles]

You are a complete dunder-head. But, since you insist on being an idiot in public, I will help.

1. No one really cares what your position about Islam is. You are entitled to your own stupidity because this is a free country.
2. You went off topic when you decided to talk about Christianity in a discussion about muslims.
3. List the article? I did, it is AP wire story. The author is named. Do a Google search.
4. For further proof that Islam is evil read the Koran. The Koran quotes Mohammed telling his four sons this, (paraphrased in translation) "When you meet an infidel convert him. If you cannot convert an infidel, then enslave him. If you cannot enslave the infidel kill him." This is a common quote, so look it up yourself and learn something on your own.

1. And the same about your narrow minded position on the matter, but i don't mind hearing your ideas and discuss them but that seems way to intense of a task to ask of you.
2. I didn't change the topic to christianity i was merely pointing out that the idea of Islam isn't evil and trying to show a parrelelling*sp subject so that maybe you could understand my stance.
3. I tried to find it and i could not, so i am sorry google didn't find it.
4. I will go ahead and try adn get a copy of the Koran from my buddy Khader. I am hanging out with him tonight. Then i will read and come back to comment.

Also you have to understand that religion is up to perception. In Islam you can have one person percieve the Koran one way (normal) or you can percieve it a different (radical extremists) ya dig.

I'm sorry it troubles you so much to talk about your opinion. I'm down for a discussion but for some reason you get so upset.

 

[mockingbird131313]

Perhaps I am a little intense about this. But, you did change the topic instead of discussing the topic, and that infuriates me. The passage I quoted is frequently quoted. You can ask a scholar where it is located.

I apologize with regards to the wire-service headline. It was on the AP only an hour or two before my post.

Frankly, I see little point in discussing my opinions about muslims. All you need to do is read a few news stories about Amamnutjob in Iran, or Hezbulah, or talk to a Christian from the middle-east, or read about what muslims do to Hindus to understand that Islam is evil. By the way, read about Barbary coast pirates. They were "black Christians" which is why they flew the skull and bones on their ships. They supplied the stolen booty and slaves to the Ottoman Empire. Today slave trade is still rampant and most is in the muslim countries.

Do you recall the book authors and movie producers who have been hunted and killed for calling Islam evil? These people are Devil worshipers and their goal is world domination.

Nothing about their religion has changed in 800 years. They are a stone age mentality with modern weapons.

 

[nickfury510]

Perhaps I am a little intense about this. But, you did change the topic instead of discussing the topic, and that infuriates me. The passage I quoted is frequently quoted. You can ask a scholar where it is located.

I apologize with regards to the wire-service headline. It was on the AP only an hour or two before my post.

Frankly, I see little point in discussing my opinions about muslims. All you need to do is read a few news stories about Amamnutjob in Iran, or Hezbulah, or talk to a Christian from the middle-east, or read about what muslims do to Hindus to understand that Islam is evil. By the way, read about Barbary coast pirates. They were "black Christians" which is why they flew the skull and bones on their ships. They supplied the stolen booty and slaves to the Ottoman Empire. Today slave trade is still rampant and most is in the muslim countries.

Do you recall the book authors and movie producers who have been hunted and killed for calling Islam evil? These people are Devil worshipers and their goal is world domination.

Nothing about their religion has changed in 800 years. They are a stone age mentality with modern weapons.

have you ever read this in the quran with your own eyes or only heard about this pssage...i have also heard this and of other passages where allah calls for the blood of infiedels....wierd thing is....nobody can produce the passages or chapters they appear in...only that it exists and it is in there....

 

[mockingbird131313]

have you ever read this in the quran with your own eyes or only heard about this pssage...i have also heard this and of other passages where allah calls for the blood of infiedels....wierd thing is....nobody can produce the passages or chapters they appear in...only that it exists and it is in there....

Those are good points. The Koran is huge. Scholars argue about the correct translation of passages from arabic. I read a huge book on the Ottoman Empire. The book author made frequent translations of relevant passages. Please do not ask me her name. I have often kicked myself for giving that book away.

 

[undertheice]

I'll be the first to admit, I have much more fun going toe-to-toe with medicine.

well then, how about facing off against a dyed in the wool atheist?

I'm sorry, but the point that blazin', poba, and I are all making is that the religion itself is not evil. It CAN'T be, it is intangible, it is ideas. What is "evil" is how it is practiced and interpreted.

the entire concept of religion is so fatally flawed that, though it may not be evil within itself, it cannot help but cause evil to be performed in its name. that which must cause evil may, therefore, be described as evil.

the very nature of religion is based on absolutes, the earthly commandments of a deity or deities. there is no half way when dealing with the word of a god - it is good, it is infallible, it is eternal, it is the ultimate source. for the believer, there are no other truths and to even suggest so would be considered evil. religion is exclusive as well. only those of the faith can possess that truth, therefore all else must be tainted by evil. the gods of others must be false if there is to be but one true god or one true set of gods. finally, religion is expansive. human nature demands that a truth, once accepted and codified, must be spread as a part of its proof. once a creed is thrust forward as truth, universal acceptance is expected. those who refuse that truth must be evil.

in the mythology of good versus evil, all tactics are fair in the mind of man. an elitist group, content in their understanding of the "truth", must prevail or their faith is seen as false. the good must win out over evil, the truth must prevail over lies. evil deeds may be excused in the cause of furthering the spread of that truth, death is seen as preferable to a life without that truth and to cause the deaths of nonbelievers may be seen as mercy. this is the history and nature of religion. even the most docile adherent may be moved to violence and hatred, absolved by the love of and faith in his truth.

 

[mjetta]

Muhammad had zero sons . . . .

 

[NewGrowth]

All Americans are "real" Americans no matter how delusional.

Not quite. Let me make this point in a round about way, and mildly disrespect you at the same time. Just because you have a little prick, and it has a little hair on it, you sir, are no Man. You need to take stands, at times, to qualify for title of Man, and you are incapable, it seems, of standing firmly for anything.

What exactly do you stand for? Ignorance? Intolerance? Are you sure you did not play in that movie "Team America"? Are you always this angry? How high is your blood pressure? And you argue the semantics of good and evil!? Are you really that insecure about your penis size? It seems like you are incapable of arguing with me because every time you try instead of intelligent debate your language is reduced to "round about" ignorant insults. If you want to feel like a man maybe you should stop acting like a child.

 

[blazin waffles]

Perhaps I am a little intense about this. But, you did change the topic instead of discussing the topic, and that infuriates me. The passage I quoted is frequently quoted. You can ask a scholar where it is located.

I apologize with regards to the wire-service headline. It was on the AP only an hour or two before my post.

Frankly, I see little point in discussing my opinions about muslims. All you need to do is read a few news stories about Amamnutjob in Iran, or Hezbulah, or talk to a Christian from the middle-east, or read about what muslims do to Hindus to understand that Islam is evil. By the way, read about Barbary coast pirates. They were "black Christians" which is why they flew the skull and bones on their ships. They supplied the stolen booty and slaves to the Ottoman Empire. Today slave trade is still rampant and most is in the muslim countries.

Do you recall the book authors and movie producers who have been hunted and killed for calling Islam evil? These people are Devil worshipers and their goal is world domination.

Nothing about their religion has changed in 800 years. They are a stone age mentality with modern weapons.

Ok, i have recieved a copy of the Quran from my friend. His father is from Palestine and i will read and give my two cents.

 

[Seamaiden]

LOL, Prolly. . . . . . he's actually quite fun to talk with. . .never really talked with MM.

You should look at my journal! tell me watcha think!!

It'll take me a while to get through 55 pages. D'oh!

Also you have to understand that religion is up to perception. In Islam you can have one person percieve the Koran one way (normal) or you can percieve it a different (radical extremists) ya dig.

I'm sorry it troubles you so much to talk about your opinion. I'm down for a discussion but for some reason you get so upset.

Did you see mjetta's post about the NatGeo special that was on last week? A very, VERY old copy of the Quran was discovered recently, and, as with the Bible (which is a HIGHLY edited piece of work) it can be argued that the original work has been rather adulterated over the years. If I can find more on the research I will post it.

I still stand by my assertion, ideas, fleeting as they are, entirely intangible as they exist only in consciousness, are not evil. People's acts are.

Perhaps I am a little intense about this. But, you did change the topic instead of discussing the topic, and that infuriates me. The passage I quoted is frequently quoted. You can ask a scholar where it is located.

I apologize with regards to the wire-service headline. It was on the AP only an hour or two before my post.

Frankly, I see little point in discussing my opinions about muslims. All you need to do is read a few news stories about Amamnutjob in Iran, or Hezbulah, or talk to a Christian from the middle-east, or read about what muslims do to Hindus to understand that Islam is evil. By the way, read about Barbary coast pirates. They were "black Christians" which is why they flew the skull and bones on their ships. They supplied the stolen booty and slaves to the Ottoman Empire. Today slave trade is still rampant and most is in the muslim countries.

Do you recall the book authors and movie producers who have been hunted and killed for calling Islam evil? These people are Devil worshipers and their goal is world domination.

Nothing about their religion has changed in 800 years. They are a stone age mentality with modern weapons.

You are well demonstrating the power of the media. You must have missed my link CAMERA: Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America -- Also, you do realize that you are just as much allowing yourself to be influenced by sensational reporting as any Middle Easterner who watches extremist anti-West reporting is, yes? They can easily make the argument that we are evil as well.

 

[Seamaiden]

well then, how about facing off against a dyed in the wool atheist?

Hmm.. facing off. Alright, let's go. (From a dyed in the wool fan of Jung and Campbell.)

the entire concept of religion is so fatally flawed that, though it may not be evil within itself, it cannot help but cause evil to be performed in its name. that which must cause evil may, therefore, be described as evil.

First, I think that you must be more accurate than to simply say "religion". The implication of what you're saying is that before religion there were no wrongdoings, no murders, rapes, wars. This is wrong. It is simply an excuse for humans to behave as humans.

the very nature of religion is based on absolutes, the earthly commandments of a deity or deities. there is no half way when dealing with the word of a god - it is good, it is infallible, it is eternal, it is the ultimate source.

On one hand I don't disagree, on the other, I'm thinking that exceptions abound. I would need time to find them, I am not a student of theology but of mythology and it's been QUITE a long time since I've used those muscles.

for the believer, there are no other truths and to even suggest so would be considered evil.

Even for those who practice religions in which there are no ultimate "fruits"? I am immediately brought to think of earth/nature worshipping religions and, most notably, Buddhism. Again, I'll have to do some searching on that.

religion is exclusive as well. only those of the faith can possess that truth, therefore all else must be tainted by evil.

And with this you have cornered yourself into speaking specifically of monotheistic religions, the Abrahamic religions, without being honest enough to say so. While not popular, there are others for which such is not the case, and I would be so bold as to suggest there have been such others in the past.

the gods of others must be false if there is to be but one true god or one true set of gods. finally, religion is expansive. human nature demands that a truth, once accepted and codified, must be spread as a part of its proof. once a creed is thrust forward as truth, universal acceptance is expected. those who refuse that truth must be evil.

Codified, yes, as the true purpose of religion was really to answer the unanswerable. I firmly believe that were it not for the advent of religion, which I believe came about at the same time as music and art, we would still be tearing at chunks of carrion after the large predators had their fill and picking the fruit the monkeys in the trees had allowed to fall.

in the mythology of good versus evil, all tactics are fair in the mind of man. an elitist group, content in their understanding of the "truth", must prevail or their faith is seen as false. the good must win out over evil, the truth must prevail over lies. evil deeds may be excused in the cause of furthering the spread of that truth, death is seen as preferable to a life without that truth and to cause the deaths of nonbelievers may be seen as mercy. this is the history and nature of religion. even the most docile adherent may be moved to violence and hatred, absolved by the love of and faith in his truth.

Allow me to refer to my works of Campbells and get back to you on this last bit, would you?

However, before I do so, let me ask you this--Is your assertion that, were it NOT for the existence of religion, there would be no "evil" in man or the world?

 

[undertheice]

Hmm.. facing off. Alright, let's go. (From a dyed in the wool fan of Jung and Campbell.)

seems we might be demanding that this thread be diverted to cuba.

First, I think that you must be more accurate than to simply say "religion". The implication of what you're saying is that before religion there were no wrongdoings, no murders, rapes, wars. This is wrong. It is simply an excuse for humans to behave as humans.

i don't contend that religion is the sole source of the evil perpetrated by man. i do assert that it is one of the major conduits through which man's baser instincts are encouraged to freely flow. religion might be seen as the vehicle through which man justifies his place in the world, an instrument through which he can make sense of the chaos around him. with few exceptions, religion's primary purpose would seem to be to place man in a position superior to the rest of the world (owner, caretaker, custodian etc) and imbue him with a spark of divinity. as creatures so close to the godhead, their transgressions might be excused as necessary for the enlightenment of the rest of the world.

On one hand I don't disagree, on the other, I'm thinking that exceptions abound. I would need time to find them, I am not a student of theology but of mythology and it's been QUITE a long time since I've used those muscles.

i don't doubt that you may find some small exception. i do, however, doubt that you will find them in abundance. man has made religion in his own image and it follows his quest to create an orderly universe.

Even for those who practice religions in which there are no ultimate "fruits"? I am immediately brought to think of earth/nature worshiping religions and, most notably, Buddhism. Again, I'll have to do some searching on that.

i'm surprised you brought up buddhism when daoist philosophy might be seen as less intrusive, but there is still the element of punishment for non-adherence to dogma. whether that punishment is at the hands of a universal spirit or is expected to be performed by the believers themselves, it is still taken all too often as license to act out against the non-believers. even within animistic cultures there is a tendency toward taking the burden of inflicting that punishment from the divine and placing it in human hands.

And with this you have cornered yourself into speaking specifically of monotheistic religions, the Abrahamic religions, without being honest enough to say so. While not popular, there are others for which such is not the case, and I would be so bold as to suggest there have been such others in the past.

i have never attempted to hide my disgust at the excesses of the abrahamic creeds. being born amidst the warrior tribes of the middle east, their acceptance of violence is equaled by only the most primitive of societies. exclusivity is the most predominant selling point of religion. only the faithful will ever understand the truths inherent in any belief and this affords them some measure of elite status. some aspects of hinduism may be seen as more inclusive, considering their understanding that all gods may be seen as different aspects of a universal spirit, but even there we find the necessity of a belief in that sentient spirit and the attendant elitist schism between the faithful and the non-believers.

Codified, yes, as the true purpose of religion was really to answer the unanswerable. I firmly believe that were it not for the advent of religion, which I believe came about at the same time as music and art, we would still be tearing at chunks of carrion after the large predators had their fill and picking the fruit the monkeys in the trees had allowed to fall.

now we come down to the true purpose of religion, control. by codifying acceptable behavior and placing the origin of those regulations in the realm of the supernatural, control over the masses can be assumed by a small group of the enlightened and blame can still be shifted onto some unknowable entity. it is the politics of the absolute. whether some good may come of such institutions is hardly the point. it is a simple case of whether the ends justify the means. whether primitive society needed such superstitious nonsense in order to survive and succeed is debatable.

Is your assertion that, were it NOT for the existence of religion, there would be no "evil" in man or the world?

now that's just silly.
the man-made institutions of religion cannot help but reflect his own failings. i merely assert that the nature of religion, being based in the unknowable and therefore the undeniable, makes it more prone to the abuses inherent in man's baser instincts. there may have been a time when such mythologies were needed to keep the ignorant from tearing each other apart, but they now stand as a roadblock in the path of man's ethical evolution and a source of contention between opposing creeds.

 

[mockingbird131313]

You are well demonstrating the power of the media. You must have missed my link CAMERA: Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America -- Also, you do realize that you are just as much allowing yourself to be influenced by sensational reporting as any Middle Easterner who watches extremist anti-West reporting is, yes? They can easily make the argument that we are evil as well.

Oh really? The USA exited the slave business in 1860. The Ottomans were in up till 1930. It is still prevalent in some Middle East countries.

I worked with a man and became his friend. He was one of four sons born in Tehran. He was named Mohammed Reza XXXXXX. His family was Christian, yet his father named each son Mohammed, because muslims kill infidel babies. Reza was in 1970 and I believe the practice is still common today.

I worked 11 years for a University. The campus had over 15,000 students. I personally know a tenured professor who almost lost his job because he gave an "F" to a muslim woman. The other profs and staff rallied beside the man to protect him. There was a continuous muslim attempt to harass all the staff because of the grades and treatment of muslim students. However, the Malaysian muslims were actually well behaved and studious. But the Middle Eastern's always claimed some kind of injustice.

Now I have not even broached the issue of the media. Many people, especially muslims, believe the media is dominated by money-grubbing zionists that lie and steal. However, I do not support that idea. I think the media gets the story right about as often as not. So it looks like the media must have a lot of negative material to work with. In fact I suppose authors and producers who work in media just killed themselves. It was zionist doctors who labeled it murders. You do agree, don't you?

Oh, and what about the travesty of the fake holocaust? Muslims have brought all this mess to light. Clearly, according to muslims, Jews, gypsies, Russians, and retards have been making these holocaust stories up as well. You know the Jews and the others are just trying to get sympathy when they really weren't singled out in WWII, for extermination. You do agree, don;t you?

Dear Seamaiden, muslims have been evil for over 800 years and the disease continues to fester.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Although terrorists state their jihadi motives loudly and clearly, Westerners and Muslims alike too often fail to hear them. Islamic organizations, Canadian author Irshad Manji observes, pretend that "Islam is an innocent bystander in today's terrorism."

What Do the Terrorists Want? [A Caliphate] - article by Daniel Pipes

 

[mjetta]

Oh really? The USA exited the slave business in 1860. The Ottomans were in up till 1930. It is still prevalent in some Middle East countries.

I worked with a man and became his friend. He was one of four sons born in Tehran. He was named Mohammed Reza XXXXXX. His family was Christian, yet his father named each son Mohammed, because muslims kill infidel babies. Reza was in 1970 and I believe the practice is still common today.

I worked 11 years for a University. The campus had over 15,000 students. I personally know a tenured professor who almost lost his job because he gave an "F" to a muslim woman. The other profs and staff rallied beside the man to protect him. There was a continuous muslim attempt to harass all the staff because of the grades and treatment of muslim students. However, the Malaysian muslims were actually well behaved and studious. But the Middle Eastern's always claimed some kind of injustice.

Now I have not even broached the issue of the media. Many people, especially muslims, believe the media is dominated by money-grubbing zionists that lie and steal. However, I do not support that idea. I think the media gets the story right about as often as not. So it looks like the media must have a lot of negative material to work with. In fact I suppose authors and producers who work in media just killed themselves. It was zionist doctors who labeled it murders. You do agree, don't you?

Oh, and what about the travesty of the fake holocaust? Muslims have brought all this mess to light. Clearly, according to muslims, Jews, gypsies, Russians, and retards have been making these holocaust stories up as well. You know the Jews and the others are just trying to get sympathy when they really weren't singled out in WWII, for extermination. You do agree, don;t you?

Dear Seamaiden, muslims have been evil for over 800 years and the disease continues to fester.

Muslims kill infidel babies? if thats the case where did this come from?

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iran's proud but discreet Jews

 

[mockingbird131313]

Muslims kill infidel babies? if thats the case where did this come from?

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iran's proud but discreet Jews

All I know is what my friend, from Tehran, told me in 1983.

 

[blazin waffles]

All I know is what my friend, from Tehran, told me in 1983.

So your basing a lot of your opinion on word of mouth from over 20 yrs ago? Granted he lived there but maybe Tehran was a bad place, all i know is that my friend is Palestinian and he only has 2 uncles named muhammed. So i don't think they killed babies that weren't named after a 'prophet'.

 

[Seamaiden]

I'm still groggy and can't quite see straight yet, but UTI, mockingbird, do you both realize that you have proved my original point that it is not the concept that is evil, but the men who adhere and "practice" the concepts? UTI, I think you understand that this is actually also a very cultural thing.

What say you, mockingbird, of the Spartan's practice of killing unfit children? So much must be interpreted ONLY within its context, to attempt to do anything otherwise, especially when speaking from one of the few First World allegedly civilized countries that still practices the death penalty.

You both have simply firmed up my position that the idea (i.e. religion) is not and can not be evil in and of itself. It is merely used (as an excuse).