leaf drop city

[pope creek]

I am worried by the leaf drop my plants are suffering.
I believe it's a deficiency. Maybe Potassium, Magnesium or Manganese - I have been studying the diagnosis threads - but I'm not sure which one.
I am feeding a tea which ought to supply all needs but it doesn't seem to help. Perhaps it's made it worse. Not sure what the cause is but the loss is starting to be a concern.
At first only lower leaves, but now middle ones too.
They turn yellow, though in many cases the veins stay green, later they become necrotic then shrivel and die.
I stripped away all the dead and dying and am unhappy to find not much left of the bottom third of the plant. Tops are still fine. My fear is that the trouble will continue to climb.
PH of the well water I use is fine. PH of soil untested but clearly in range.
Yet my hunch is something is getting locked out .

My grow is outdoor. Organic. Poor soil with little prep.
Planted early June. Dug big holes and set seedlings in 50/50 soil and home made compost. Compost is kitchen/garden waste and some manure. Nothing fancy.
Mulched heavily with dried alfalfa, corn husk and straw from chicken coop.
Fed fish emulsion and teas that I brew and bubble.
Typical tea might have alfalfa, compost, manure, accumulator plants, owl pellets combined with water and a little molasses.
I mix it up in a trash can and judge quantities by instinct. Dilute about 3/1.
As I moved into bud phase I started adding kelp and guano.
The plants have thrived till now.
Symptoms started slowly but seem to have accelerated.
I would love some advice.

 

[sharky1981]

Looks lyk a iron deficiency but don't quote me on that there are lots of more experienced growers on here
Hopefully one of them will tell you for sure good luck

 

[lfc89]

Lower leaves yellowing is usually a tell tale sign of nitrogen deficiency, how far in flowering are you have u stopped the nitrogen?

 

[sharky1981]

i only thought iron because the veins are staying green

 

[pope creek]

Still adding small amounts of manure, alfalfa and fish emulsion to teas . Less than before, admittedly. Just added kelp meal and guano to the mix plus a little Epsom and stuff like potato peel and banana skins for P and K.
I thought the green veins were significant too.
What do you think of my lockout theory and any strategy to test/fix it?
Thanks chaps!

 

[lfc89]

Hard to say until you test the soil then at least you can completely eradicate that.
I would also get the well water checked properly sometimes that stuff can be too hard which would cause the lock out

 

[pope creek]

Well water is hard. However I completed a decent grow last year with the same water and all my vegetables seem happy enough.
That also allows me to think the soil, though poor, is acceptable.

One idea is I may have overloaded on N. I understand this is hard to do with organic ferts but maybe I did.
A reason I suspect this is my squash is vigorously crawling but bearing little fruit. Which I've read can be a symptom of too much N.
On the other hand, some folks here think the plants look like they need more. All very confusing.

 

[lfc89]

There will be someone who knows a lot more than me on here when it comes to organics.
but certain well water can be permantly hard you cant even boil the magnesium and calcium out of it it has to go through a softening process.
I would get a soil ph tester and some RO water if possible and flush her out. Its hard sometimes to differentiate between an imbalance or defiecency. But by testing your soil and your water atleast you can tick them off the list and move on to the next.

 

[Kalebaiden]

You have a lockout and that's fairly normal, if you keep doing what you're doing it's going to progress until she's done. It could be slow or fast, because it's outdoors and the weather is unpredictable.

As to what the lock out is, I'm not going to tell you but i'll help you figure it out on your own, Here's a few resources to help get you started.

This image should always be your first go to, it gives a quick overview of issues which will help you narrow it down.

This is also helpful.

I hope I'm being helpful

 

[AimAim]

They look pretty good to me actually.

A lot depends on the strain/genetics pheno/genotype, as to the yellowing color.

It is August you know, Summer Solstice about 3 weeks ago, and some of the girls are are looking to start shutting down.

If it were mine I would give it half doses of N every watering and ride it out. Increase sun if possible.

 

[Kalebaiden]

They look pretty good to me actually.

A lot depends on the strain/genetics pheno/genotype, as to the yellowing color.

It is August you know, Summer Solstice about 3 weeks ago, and some of the girls are are looking to start shutting down.

If it were mine I would give it half doses of N every watering and ride it out. Increase sun if possible.

They've already said their problem, now it's just a matter of putting the pieces together.

Clues;

Lock out, affecting old growth and progressing to newer growth, water. If I say anymore I'll give it all away.

 

[pope creek]

lfc89,
I've been planning to have my water checked, think I can get done free by the ag dept. Your advice nudges me to act.
Wish I could sort out an reverse osmosis system but I'm super underfunded and have to work with what I've got.
Not certain, and I hope someone who knows may confirm, but I believe excessive minerals in my water may be causing lockout. Something to do with catons (sic), which is simple chemistry or botany but well beyond me.
Anyhow, it adds weight to Kalebaiden's diagnosis and a theory I was slowly coming to myself.
Thank you, mate.

Btw , I like your handle.

 

[pope creek]

Kalebaiden,
It's a magnesium deficiency according to the flow chart.
The leaf chart offered too many possibilities, though it does also indicate mg. just none of my leaves exactly match the pics.

Very helpful, thanks.
Next question.
Wtf should I do?

 

[pope creek]

Aim aim,
The tops look good but there is trouble in paradise. I need to act.
A lot of the N is already in the soil in the form of manure and the mulch is N heavy. The only other source is Fish Emulsion that I add to my teas. Since bud started to show I have reduced it.
Some plants are a little pale - though most are healthy green ( up top, at least ).
Not sure how to counter the problem.

 

[Kalebaiden]

It's one plant and there's a really simple solution. (Taken from a reputable site)

Since there's nothing wrong with your ferts, you can buy gallons of distilled or RO water on the cheap from anywhere. (Wal-Mart, chain grocery store, gas stations.) I'm talking the 48 packs of bottled for 1.99 or the big jugs of water for 5 bucks. You'll need to flush it once and you might want to look into getting some epsom salts. (Personal measurements are roughly a table spoon in 10L of water)

Magnesium (Mg) deficiency

Magnesium (Mg) deficiency is a detrimental plant disorder that occurs most often in strongly acidic, light, sandy soils, where magnesium can be easily leached away. Magnesium is an essential macronutrient found from 0.2-0.4% dry matter and is necessary for normal plant growth.
Excess potassium, generally due to fertilizers, further aggravates the stress from the magnesium deficiency.

Magnesium has an important role in photosynthesis because it forms the central atom of chlorophyll.[1] Therefore, without sufficient amounts of magnesium, plants begin to degrade the chlorophyll in the old leaves. This causes the main symptom of magnesium deficiency, chlorosis, or yellowing between leaf veins, which stay green, giving the leaves a marbled appearance. Due to magnesium’s mobile nature, the plant will first break down chlorophyll in older leaves and transport the Mg to younger leaves which have greater photosynthetic needs. Therefore, the first sign of magnesium deficiency is the chlorosis of old leaves which progresses to the young leaves as the deficiency continues. Magnesium also is a necessary activator for many critical enzymes, including ribulosbiphosphate carboxylase (RuBisCO) and phosphoenolpyruvate carboxylase (PEP), both essential enzymes in carbon fixation. Thus low amounts of Mg lead to a decrease in photosynthetic and enzymatic activity within the plants. Magnesium is also crucial in stabilizing ribosome structures, hence, a lack of magnesium causes depolymerization of ribosomes leading to pre-mature aging of the plant. After prolonged magnesium deficiency, necrosis and dropping of older leaves occurs. Plants deficient in magnesium also produce smaller, woodier fruits.
Magnesium deficiency may be confused with zinc or chlorine deficiencies, viruses, or natural aging since all have similar symptoms. Adding Epsom salts (diluted to 8.5 oz. per 2.2 gal. of water) or crushed dolomitic limestone to the soil can rectify magnesium deficiencies. For a more organic solution, applying home-made compost mulch can prevent leaching during excessive rainfall and provide plants with sufficient amounts of nutrients, including magnesium.

Problems with Magnesium being locked out by PH troubles

Light Acid Soils, soils with excessive potassium, calcium and or phosphorus


Soil

Magnesium gets locked out of soil growing at ph levels of 2.0-6.4
Magnesium is absorbed best in soil at a ph level of 6.5-9.1 . (Wouldn’t recommend having a ph of over 7.0 in soil) anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Magnesium deficiency.

Before I got broken I was an environmental student, then I moved on to Forestry. I've been growing the whole time with Professors IRL and mentors on here. There's not much about plants that I don't know now.

 

[pope creek]

Kalebaiden,
Looks like Magnesium is pretty vital. Plus you reckon the lock out is due to hard water.
It makes sense.
Only thing that seems odd is most of my veggies seem happy. Not the squash, but the tomatoes, peppers, eggplant and chard.
I thought cannabis would be more robust.
Unfortunately I have more than one affected plant. More like 16. The biggest is topping around 8'. She's thirsty and I'm not sure Walmart water will work.
What do you reckon about creek water?

 

[pope creek]

Also I grew successfully last season using same water. Not to say it hasn't changed since. Could drought have concentrated it?
Scrambling for ways to find fault with this diagnosis as the implications are too daunting.

 

[Kalebaiden]

Oh geezus...a crop.

I didn't diagnose anything, I helped you see the signs of what to look for and what evidence you have that backs up what you see.

Walmart water could get pretty expensive for that, next best is rain water and as a last resort crick water. Swampy water or water from where the crick meets a pond would probably be better.

 

[pope creek]

Creek is all but dry. A few large and highly biologic puddles is all that's left. Still there are tadpoles so it's not anaerobic.
Long hike with 5 gallon buckets but I'll do it for love and weed.

Thanks for all the help.
Any theory on why my tomatoes are so healthy?

 

[Kalebaiden]

Good genetics, local species, higher tolerance range for the species, conditioned soil.

There's could be a host of contributing factors to why but the easiest is their not the same plant. They like similar conditions but pot is pot and toms are toms.