Help me understand Dolomite lime!

[greasemonkeymann]

I am getting a really bad "fade to yellow" on week 6. I am ready to change my soil now! I will probably use my current soil to fill in bare spots on my lawn lol.
I think that I have the wood material covered, biochar and rotten wood. I can probably get most of your list from the organic store. They carry Sunlight supply and Hydrofarm. They told me "if it is in the sales magazine, they can order it". They did not really have anything but greensand from your list... I am going to follow your instuctions as closely as I can. I am going to be asking questions, but I will try not to bore you!

I am going to start collecting everything by next week. If I have to order online it will probably take longer. I have not seen your soil anywhere "vermifire", but I think that I can get most anything else. There is a landscape store close that carries Foxfarm Ocean forrest for a decent price.

just make sure the yellowing is only because of nitrogen def, sometimes with a lot of teas or EWC topdresses it can b a simple thing of too much undissolved nutrients in the soil.
Double check to makes sure that when you are watering it, that the water that comes out isn't dark, if it is, you may need to run some water through the soil to help it out a lil, gotta remember that containers aren't really an ideal growing condition, cannabis likes to stretch its legs out, and it also likes a very well drained media, which is sorta hard to keep up with sometimes in an amended organic grow, compost, ewc, and such are pretty thick
Oh, and don't even worry about asking questions, I am here to help ya man, anything I can do brother.

 

[MustangStudFarm]

I have been top dressing with worm castings and making tea once a week. Everything was great until week 6??? I am not really using anything advanced right now either. Espoma's bio-tone, dolomitic/gypsum, and worm castings... I figured that I was not really doing it right! Dont get me wrong, the first 4 weeks of flower were impressive but there came a point to where I could not do anything for it... My run-off water is pretty clear.
I am going to be gathering new material over the next couple of weeks and follow your list. Espoma was good enough to get me started in organic, but I can tell that there is more to be had!

 

[greasemonkeymann]

I have been top dressing with worm castings and making tea once a week. Everything was great until week 6??? I am not really using anything advanced right now either. Espoma's bio-tone, dolomitic/gypsum, and worm castings... I figured that I was not really doing it right! Dont get me wrong, the first 4 weeks of flower were impressive but there came a point to where I could not do anything for it... My run-off water is pretty clear.
I am going to be gathering new material over the next couple of weeks and follow your list. Espoma was good enough to get me started in organic, but I can tell that there is more to be had!

how much yellowing are we talking here?
a light tea with a nitrogen source may be helpful?
A good light source would be an alfalfa tea, comfrey tea, EWC leachate..
What the estimated finish time?
If you have a month or so to go i'd give them a little food, if the pistils are changing already, I wouldn't.
Also remember some strains BUST for the first month and then sorta stop and just finish maturing, so if it's a new strain, it could be just that.

 

[MustangStudFarm]

I am running new seed packs... It could be anything at this point, but I really think that I outgrew my 5gal containers. I have a plant in a 20gal pot(experiment) and it is doing great.

I was going to do some shopping soon and I wanted to upgrade my pots to maybe 10 gal. smart pots... What would be practical?

I have kinda been out of it lately... I learned a hard lesson about inline fans!!! Turn them off before you work on them! I had a fan mounted to the ceiling, and it fell as I was installing duct retainers. I caught the fan and kind of grind-ed off the tip of my finger, nothing too bad. It was an emergency room visit. It has been 10 days ago and I am just now getting around.

 

[greasemonkeymann]

I am running new seed packs... It could be anything at this point, but I really think that I outgrew my 5gal containers. I have a plant in a 20gal pot(experiment) and it is doing great.

I was going to do some shopping soon and I wanted to upgrade my pots to maybe 10 gal. smart pots... What would be practical?

I have kinda been out of it lately... I learned a hard lesson about inline fans!!! Turn them off before you work on them! I had a fan mounted to the ceiling, and it fell as I was installing duct retainers. I caught the fan and kind of grind-ed off the tip of my finger, nothing too bad. It was an emergency room visit. It has been 10 days ago and I am just now getting around.

ouch!
what I do (after dropping a t5 setup on some mothers a couple yrs ago) is I always have a safety hook, incase the primary chains fail, a totally separate hook in the ceiling and it's own chain.
I do that for anything above my plants..
Oh, and i'd say you are right on, a 5 gallon container isn't enough for organics really, not unless it's a stout little indica that finishes in less than two months.
ten gallon smarties are a good choice, I run 12s and 15s.
but I have done 10s plenty of times, and they are fine. All depends on the strain and how long you vege/train for.

 

[earthling420]

I am running new seed packs... It could be anything at this point, but I really think that I outgrew my 5gal containers. I have a plant in a 20gal pot(experiment) and it is doing great.

I was going to do some shopping soon and I wanted to upgrade my pots to maybe 10 gal. smart pots... What would be practical?

I have kinda been out of it lately... I learned a hard lesson about inline fans!!! Turn them off before you work on them! I had a fan mounted to the ceiling, and it fell as I was installing duct retainers. I caught the fan and kind of grind-ed off the tip of my finger, nothing too bad. It was an emergency room visit. It has been 10 days ago and I am just now getting around.

Was it at least worth it catching it? you save the plants? I hate not being able to comfortably work in the garden cause of injury :/
One reason I dont blaze before work in the garden not involving the plants. I usually forget something or am clumsy lol

But Damn, now I know fans aint nothing to play with. how big is your fan?

 

[MustangStudFarm]

ah hah! now we are talking,
a nice SFI crate engine out of those new shelbys... Whoa man, talk about traction issues, ya'd need to throw a bunch of sandbags in the back to go anywhere! Those 625 hp 5.0 liters..
Ah.. anyways.
my recipe.
it's a lil difficult to give the EXACT recipe, reason being is much of it is recycled vermifire, but I can tell you my amendments and the ratios of that which will help you get on the right path.
first if you are making from scratch stick to the 33/33/33 mix.
33% compost/vermicompost (homemade if possible) I like a 50/50 mix of both leaf compost and EWC
33% aeration
33% peat
the per cubic foot (about 7.5 gallons)
add one cup of the following
neem meal, kelp meal, crab meal.
then per cubic foot add HALF cup
insect meal (mashed up dried insect chicken feed)
alfalfa meal
fish bone meal
that's all for the nutes
then the minerals
3-4 cups per cubic foot, I like a mix of different minerals, if you are re-using your soil maybe avoid azomite.
must have one cup of oyster flour per cubic foot to control peats acidity rock phosphates, gypsum, basalt, granite, (although it can be radioactive.....) greensand or langbeinite if you are re-using your soil, but don't expect much from them at first
that's all the normal shit.
it's in my amendments where the difference is maybe the insect meal too), biochar, pumice, volcanic rock, and rotten tree log chunks are what I use.
of the 33% aeration I go 50% of that as standard conventional aeration, volcanic rock or pumice, then 25% biochar and 25% rotten wood chunks.... in fact i'm pretty sure I have more than 33% aeration in my mix if you account for all the rotten wood chunk, but damn, I tell ya my plants LOVE this mix, and it retains the PERFECT amount of water.
if you have any doubt add more aeration, never hurts, especially if it's biochar or rotten wood.
on top of all that add a cup of oyster shells (again chicken feed area) per cubic foot
---maybe i'm a bit of a dork, but the soil with all the wood chunks, biochar, volcanic rock and oyster shells? Looks mighty purty fellas

I am ready to try your soil. I dont think that I can come up with everything but I will try!

 

[greasemonkeymann]

I am ready to try your soil. I dont think that I can come up with everything but I will try!

I have found the single most important thing is a good source of humus, either compost or EWC, but for me? I am loving the compost that I've been using, amend the hell out of it, and it's ready to go, all i gotta do is mix with my old soil and aeration.
It sucks but the compost is more of a "future" type thing, it'll be ready around jan or feb if you do it now.
Really wish I would have gone with a compost pile years ago.
Crucial to not forget the oyster flour, biochar, oyster shells, crab and/or shrimp meals, or your soil may get a lil acidic over time, you could sub some of those out for other "liming" agents, but I have no experience there.
The insect meal is something you could drop if you wanted to, I llke it, but it's a PITA to make.
You could also go without the rotten wood chunks, but I wouldn't, it's helpful in keeping the soil more of a humid state. Important to "charge" it jus like you would biochar.
Any questions feel free to PM me

 

[Indagrow]

Will lime continue to decrease acidity until It reaches neutral ?will it go above to alkaline?Basically I'm asking what's the worst that can happen with too much lime?

 

[MustangStudFarm]

I have found the single most important thing is a good source of humus, either compost or EWC, but for me? I am loving the compost that I've been using, amend the hell out of it, and it's ready to go, all i gotta do is mix with my old soil and aeration.
It sucks but the compost is more of a "future" type thing, it'll be ready around jan or feb if you do it now.
Really wish I would have gone with a compost pile years ago.
Crucial to not forget the oyster flour, biochar, oyster shells, crab and/or shrimp meals, or your soil may get a lil acidic over time, you could sub some of those out for other "liming" agents, but I have no experience there.
The insect meal is something you could drop if you wanted to, I llke it, but it's a PITA to make.
You could also go without the rotten wood chunks, but I wouldn't, it's helpful in keeping the soil more of a humid state. Important to "charge" it jus like you would biochar.
Any questions feel free to PM me

Rotten wood and biochar should be free for me if I put the effort into it! Recently had a new baby and it has been taking away from my outdoor time.
How would you charge the rotten wood? piss on it like biochar lol

I told you that I was going to bookmark this page!

 

[Dr. Who]

I am getting a really bad "fade to yellow" on week 6. I am ready to change my soil now! I will probably use my current soil to fill in bare spots on my lawn lol.
I think that I have the wood material covered, biochar and rotten wood. I can probably get most of your list from the organic store. They carry Sunlight supply and Hydrofarm. They told me "if it is in the sales magazine, they can order it". They did not really have anything but greensand from your list... I am going to follow your instuctions as closely as I can. I am going to be asking questions, but I will try not to bore you!

I am going to start collecting everything by next week. If I have to order online it will probably take longer. I have not seen your soil anywhere "vermifire", but I think that I can get most anything else. There is a landscape store close that carries Foxfarm Ocean forrest for a decent price.

To much P&K in the mix, not enough long term N......Adjust your soil build.

Doc

 

[Dr. Who]

Here is a variation on an "oldie" soil mix......MOONSHINE soil mix

This was copied from raredankness's webpage


THE MOONSHINE MIX
The original moonshine mix called for a full bag of Fox Farm Ocean Forest organic soil, a half bag of Fox Farm planting Mix with bat guano and a half of a bag of Fox Farm Light warrior with additional dry nutrients provided by Peace of Mind and a few added amendments.
The key to this mix was to master the wet/ dry cycle and learning the key times to transplant.
It was an expensive mix but it worked for almost every strain I've ever grown from after cloning to harvest.
A few tweaks and additional amendments and I've developed a mix that works just as well and allows for a few well timed feedings to increase growth rates.

This is the final mix for Flowering, mix and allow soil to sit for 7 days before transplanting. For best results: final transplant 8-10 days before flowering.
Pot size should be based on plant size. Less than a foot tall without many leads = small pot. Big 3 ft tall monster bush before flower = 7-10 gal bin.


1 bag of Fox Farm Happy Frog potting soil
½ bag Fox Farm Ocean Forest
½ bag of Black Gold organic soil
2 lbs of earth worm castings.
5 gallons of Chunky / Coarse perilite
1 cup greensand
1 cup dolomite lime (powder)
1 small coco fiber brick
2 cups Peace of Mind Fruit and Flower

For 90% of plants this mix will need only Ph'd (6.7) water through the entire flower cycle.
For the other 10% of heavy feeders I recommend feeding at week 3 through 5.

For this feeding per 5 gal of pre ph'd 7.0 water.

Week 3: 2 tblspn of Age Old Organics Bloom ½ oz Maxicrop seaweed 1oz of Mother Earth Tea bloom ½ oz B1 thrive alive bloom

Week 4 & 5 4 tblspn Age Old Organics Bloom 1 oz Maxicrop seaweed 2oz Mother Earth Tea Bloom 1/2 oz B1 thrive alive bloom When feeding make sure 20% of what you put in is peeing out the bottom. ( I'm not to hip with the last part - doc)

Just thought I'd post it here..

Doc

 

[MustangStudFarm]

Rotten wood and biochar should be free for me if I put the effort into it! Recently had a new baby and it has been taking away from my outdoor time.
How would you charge the rotten wood? piss on it like biochar lol

I told you that I was going to bookmark this page!

I didnt mean to be a smart ass. I saw in other theads, you encouraged people to start peeing in buckets. I would imagine that it would kill the fungus on the wood. Compost it to charge it?

Here is a variation on an "oldie" soil mix......MOONSHINE soil mix

This was copied from raredankness's webpage


THE MOONSHINE MIX
The original moonshine mix called for a full bag of Fox Farm Ocean Forest organic soil, a half bag of Fox Farm planting Mix with bat guano and a half of a bag of Fox Farm Light warrior with additional dry nutrients provided by Peace of Mind and a few added amendments.
The key to this mix was to master the wet/ dry cycle and learning the key times to transplant.
It was an expensive mix but it worked for almost every strain I've ever grown from after cloning to harvest.
A few tweaks and additional amendments and I've developed a mix that works just as well and allows for a few well timed feedings to increase growth rates.

This is the final mix for Flowering, mix and allow soil to sit for 7 days before transplanting. For best results: final transplant 8-10 days before flowering.
Pot size should be based on plant size. Less than a foot tall without many leads = small pot. Big 3 ft tall monster bush before flower = 7-10 gal bin.


1 bag of Fox Farm Happy Frog potting soil
½ bag Fox Farm Ocean Forest
½ bag of Black Gold organic soil
2 lbs of earth worm castings.
5 gallons of Chunky / Coarse perilite
1 cup greensand
1 cup dolomite lime (powder)
1 small coco fiber brick
2 cups Peace of Mind Fruit and Flower

For 90% of plants this mix will need only Ph'd (6.7) water through the entire flower cycle.
For the other 10% of heavy feeders I recommend feeding at week 3 through 5.

For this feeding per 5 gal of pre ph'd 7.0 water.

Week 3: 2 tblspn of Age Old Organics Bloom ½ oz Maxicrop seaweed 1oz of Mother Earth Tea bloom ½ oz B1 thrive alive bloom

Week 4 & 5 4 tblspn Age Old Organics Bloom 1 oz Maxicrop seaweed 2oz Mother Earth Tea Bloom 1/2 oz B1 thrive alive bloom When feeding make sure 20% of what you put in is peeing out the bottom. ( I'm not to hip with the last part - doc)

Just thought I'd post it here..

Doc

I was having a combination of problems, container size being one. I am trying to learn still.

 

[Nullis]

its full of calcium and little magnesium, its changes ph. it takes over a year to break down and be of any use. So not worth using imo. There's much better options. Like oyster shell flour, gypsum powder, crab meal, shrimp meal, rock dust.

Actually, dolomite is a double carbonate: calcium magnesium carbonate with Ca and Mg alternating in the crystal lattice. Oyster shell flour is composed predominately of the salt of carbonic acid we call calcium carbonate (virtually no Mg). Pure dolomite would have roughly equal proportion Calcium and Magnesium. Dolomitic limestone (aka Calcitic\Dolomitic limestone), which is more commonly available as a liming agent has 6-12% magnesium (elemental).

Either way, it definitely does not "take over a year to break down and be of any use"; carbonates react with acids immediately on contact. It may persist in media\soil for over a year, or in other words it works for up to a year depending on media CEC and application rate. This is because both Calcium and Magnesium, being Group 2 elements, form carbonates which are sparingly soluble in water. Thus it exists in media mostly as precipitate, which is why it works for so long. Of course, particle size affects solubility. Pulverized and particularly micronized lime will work faster than lime pellets or crushed oyster shell.

Calcitic limestone is calcium carbonate. Oyster shell and eggshell flour fall under that category because they consist mainly of calcium carbonate (95%). Even crab shell has a good amount of calcium carbonate, about 40%. All of these materials would have a CCE, or calcium carbonate equivalent. So it makes no sense logically why oyster shell flour would be worth using and dolomitic limestone wouldn't. If the particle size is virtually the same the result will be, too.

 

[Nullis]

Will lime continue to decrease acidity until It reaches neutral ?will it go above to alkaline?Basically I'm asking what's the worst that can happen with too much lime?

Just noticed no one answered your question. If you really over-do it yes it can get above 7, but you'd REALLY need to over-do it for that to happen. It also depends on the pH and CEC of the media. i.e. lower CEC soils require more frequent applications in contrast to high CEC media. Lab testing can actually help determine exactly what the liming requirement is. In general a tablespoon per gallon of mix is suitable.

Other things to consider are your water source. Tap water may already have calcium and magnesium dissolved in it , in which case you probably wouldn't need much rain/
I use SAME#4 which is mainly for hydro so amend it with Dolomitic limsestone and pulverized. Also becasue I use low TDS rain water.

 

[Nullis]

Whoa. Now I can tell from the last sentences of my previous post how fucked up I was last night.

 

[shredder4]

Actually, dolomite is a double carbonate: calcium magnesium carbonate with Ca and Mg alternating in the crystal lattice. Oyster shell flour is composed predominately of the salt of carbonic acid we call calcium carbonate (virtually no Mg). Pure dolomite would have roughly equal proportion Calcium and Magnesium. Dolomitic limestone (aka Calcitic\Dolomitic limestone), which is more commonly available as a liming agent has 6-12% magnesium (elemental).

Either way, it definitely does not "take over a year to break down and be of any use"; carbonates react with acids immediately on contact. It may persist in media\soil for over a year, or in other words it works for up to a year depending on media CEC and application rate. This is because both Calcium and Magnesium, being Group 2 elements, form carbonates which are sparingly soluble in water. Thus it exists in media mostly as precipitate, which is why it works for so long. Of course, particle size affects solubility. Pulverized and particularly micronized lime will work faster than lime pellets or crushed oyster shell.

Calcitic limestone is calcium carbonate. Oyster shell and eggshell flour fall under that category because they consist mainly of calcium carbonate (95%). Even crab shell has a good amount of calcium carbonate, about 40%. All of these materials would have a CCE, or calcium carbonate equivalent. So it makes no sense logically why oyster shell flour would be worth using and dolomitic limestone wouldn't. If the particle size is virtually the same the result will be, too.

Oyster shell is calcium carbonate but it also has minerals from the ocean, including magnesium btw. Its breaks down faster than dolomite lime. Crab shells also bring more to the table besides calcium, (chitons for one) and it breaks down fast. Gypsum breaks down fast and provides sulfur.

I've found I can grow better, longer (no till) without adding lime. I think in part because my organic inputs have so much calcium, and magnesium for that matter. I'm coming around to believe its the magnesium carbonate, in dolomite lime that causes ph to rise over time, throwing off soil balance. Plus most of us using well water will have plenty of lime in the water, lol.

So, I think it's fair to say we use lime for two things, calcium and buffering the soil ph. Right? I think using diverse calcium inputs gives us everything lime would, (calcium and soil buffering ) but with diversity we get much more than just lime. Win win I say.

In my mind, most of us provide plenty for plants to eat. But without balance it just doesn't work well. So I look at diversity for balance and I also look to make things available for plants to use. Hence enzyme teas, humic/fulvic acid, and especially compost and compost tea, all to make nutrients available to let plants decide.

 

[Nullis]

Oyster shell has trace amounts of Mg, and Mg is really a secondary (not a trace) element for plants. The only reason it would dissolve or break down any quicker than calcitic/dolomitic limestone would be particle size. What I am saying is that dolomitic/calcitic limestone is virtually the same thing as oyster shell flour. Even dolomitic limestone has some quantity (traces) of other mineral carbonates or oxides.

I've found I can grow better, longer (no till) without adding lime. I think in part because my organic inputs have so much calcium, and magnesium for that matter. I'm coming around to believe its the magnesium carbonate, in dolomite lime that causes ph to rise over time, throwing off soil balance. Plus most of us using well water will have plenty of lime in the water, lol.

It's carbonates period that neutralize soil/potting mix acidity over time. It matters very little in that sense if it is calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate. As previously mentioned Ca and Mg are both Group 2 elements, so their properties as carbonates are very similar. I hate to tell people to trust me, but trust me, I know a little bit about chemistry. They would not "throw off" soil pH if they were not over used.

For example, I wouldn't use much dolomitic limestone if I was using oyster shell flour. This is really where CCE or calcium carbonate equivalence comes in. Each liming material including crab meal has a CCE. If you're using a bunch of materials with a CCE then your goal would be to average them and see what the combined CCE is of the quantity of material(s) you're using.

I don't use oyster shell because I have a very similar material that I can produce myself from a kitchen by-product. It's called egg shell. So my liming mix is 50% pulverized egg shell and 50% dolomitic limestone. I also qualified that I personally use very pure rain water, not tap water as I am well aware that tap water (especially on the West coast) has a good mineral content (hard water, lime dissolved in the water). Balance is more the concern of the soil biota than mine.

Otherwise, for me anyways, there is nothing about gypsum in my mind that would make it better than calcitic/dolomitic lime or necessitate that I use it. Not only that but gypsum really isn't any more "organic" than lime. It's calcium sulphate, so really it's just another naturally occurring calcium salt.

 

[shredder4]

The reason I believe magnesium carbonate may have more effect on ph than calcium carbonate is from researching my water. After installing a RO filter my water ph went from 9.5 to 9.2. As it turned out there are very few ions left in the filtered water and the ph changes dramatically with most inputs, just like RO water is supposed to do. But anyway in the course of researching the reason the ph remained so high, what i found was that magnesium carbonate had a greater effect at low ppm than calcium carbonate alone. Not that it makes a hill of beans difference in our pots, lol. But I did find that interesting.

On gypsum or adding sulfur to our soil. I've found that adding small amounts of sulfur to be beneficial in the final product. I add gypsum in the mix and top dress with it a couple times per year. I also use neem meal, and that has a significant amount of sulfur as well. What I noticed was enhanced smell/taste than without. YMMV

 

[Dr. Who]

Oyster shell has trace amounts of Mg, and Mg is really a secondary (not a trace) element for plants. The only reason it would dissolve or break down any quicker than calcitic/dolomitic limestone would be particle size. What I am saying is that dolomitic/calcitic limestone is virtually the same thing as oyster shell flour. Even dolomitic limestone has some quantity (traces) of other mineral carbonates or oxides.


It's carbonates period that neutralize soil/potting mix acidity over time. It matters very little in that sense if it is calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate. As previously mentioned Ca and Mg are both Group 2 elements, so their properties as carbonates are very similar. I hate to tell people to trust me, but trust me, I know a little bit about chemistry. They would not "throw off" soil pH if they were not over used.

For example, I wouldn't use much dolomitic limestone if I was using oyster shell flour. This is really where CCE or calcium carbonate equivalence comes in. Each liming material including crab meal has a CCE. If you're using a bunch of materials with a CCE then your goal would be to average them and see what the combined CCE is of the quantity of material(s) you're using.

I don't use oyster shell because I have a very similar material that I can produce myself from a kitchen by-product. It's called egg shell. So my liming mix is 50% pulverized egg shell and 50% dolomitic limestone. I also qualified that I personally use very pure rain water, not tap water as I am well aware that tap water (especially on the West coast) has a good mineral content (hard water, lime dissolved in the water). Balance is more the concern of the soil biota than mine.

Otherwise, for me anyways, there is nothing about gypsum in my mind that would make it better than calcitic/dolomitic lime or necessitate that I use it. Not only that but gypsum really isn't any more "organic" than lime. It's calcium sulphate, so really it's just another naturally occurring calcium salt.

Mmm......I too use egg shells and oyster but , leave out the Dolo and use gypsum......I don't want the Mg in the Dolo and I DO want the S from the gypsum......That's my choice....I might re amend with some Dolo FOR the Mg when using less rock phos / bone meals due to not wanting to raise the available and long term P too much...

just saying

Doc