Is the World Flat? The Flatlander's theory..

Status
Not open for further replies.

SunnyJim

Well-Known Member
The question was "Which card(s) must you turn over to determine whether the statement is false?"

If we turn over the A and find anything other than a 7, the premise is falsified. However, you are asked which cards to turn over given the information presented, rather than turn one over and then decide on the next, and so on.
I guess I have a programmer's approach! Looks like a boolean to me. Flipping only A returns either a true (7) or a false (any other value), which is what I'm trying test. I don't understand why you would further 'falsify it' by flipping over more than the A card.

EDIT:

Of course, I could have misunderstood the premise of the test.

2nd EDIT:

Ok, so you also flip the 4 card to confirm the possibility that although A could flip a 7, 4 could also flip an A, which falsifies "A flipped ONLY EQUALS 7."
 
Last edited:

zeddd

Well-Known Member
It does not. Where the biasing idea comes from isn't important. I see zero logical difference. The relevant train of reason exists equally in both cases: whether the idea was arrived at by cogitation or a more immediate perception/cognition couple ... they are both post hoc. Why does what the "primer" was have any outcome on the reason tree or flow chart?

No. It would not. If A then 7 does not allow "so then: if 7 then A". I am confused by what looks like verbal sophistry, something I don't remember you willingly engaging in. I am seeing you apply a confirmation bias in your explanations.

I thus contend that the availability heuristic is an outcome-neutral antecedent of this example of confirmation bias.
most of what you say is a direct effect of adapting microcirculation in the cerebrum, does vascular neurophysiology trump (small t) psychology
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
.


I guess I have a programmer's approach! Looks like a boolean to me. Flipping only A returns either a true (7) or a false (any other value), which is what I'm trying test. I don't understand why you would further 'falsify it' by flipping over more than the A card.
Well, if you flip over the A and find anything other than a 7, you've falsified the statement, your job is done. If you flip over the A and do find a 7, you've merely confirmed the statement and you're job isn't done. You're job is to falsify. The '4' card is another chance to falsify, as it may have an A on the other side. The other cards do not offer a chance to falsify.

Keep in mind, whether or not you can fully test the statement with only four cards to choose from is beside the point. The question is simply which cards offer us a chance to falsify, and those cards are the A and the 4.

The point of the exercise is that our brains tend to want to confirm statements and be satisfied, which isn't as accurate as trying to falsify them. This is why science, for example, prefers to falsify hypothesis. It doesn't try to prove things true, but rather tries its best to prove things false, and the more an idea survives attempts to falsify it, the more confident in it we can be. So when science says something is accurate or "true", it's not because it has confirmed the idea, its because it has failed in its best attempts to prove the idea false.

"A couple of centuries back people began to catch on to the fact that looking for disconfirming evidence was a better way to conduct research than proceeding from common belief. They saw that eliminating suspicions caused the outline of the truth to emerge. Once your forefathers and foremothers realized that this approach generated results, in a few generations your species went from burning witches and drinking mercury to mapping the human genome and playing golf on the moon." - David McRaney
 

SunnyJim

Well-Known Member
.

Well, if you flip over the A and find anything other than a 7, you've falsified the statement, your job is done. If you flip over the A and do find a 7, you've merely confirmed the statement and you're job isn't done. You're job is to falsify. The '4' card is another chance to falsify, as it may have an A on the other side. The other cards do not offer a chance to falsify.

Keep in mind, whether or not you can fully test the statement with only four cards to choose from is beside the point. The question is simply which cards offer us a chance to falsify, and those cards are the A and the 4.

The point of the exercise is that our brains tend to want to confirm statements and be satisfied, which isn't as accurate as trying to falsify them. This is why science, for example, prefers to falsify hypothesis. It doesn't try to prove things true, but rather tries its best to prove things false, and the more an idea survives attempts to falsify it, the more confident in it we can be. So when science says something is accurate or "true", it's not because it has confirmed the idea, its because it has failed in its best attempts to prove the idea false.
I'm with you. Sneaked in with an edit before you had a chance to reply.

Fun game!
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I'm with you. Sneaked in with an edit before you had a chance to reply.

Fun game!
Want to see other examples where intuitive thinking interferes with analytical thinking?

Here are four questions, none of which are difficult to answer. The point is that your brain will supply you with a knee-jerk intuitive answer that upon further reflection will turn out to be wrong. (of course this will happen less now that I have warned you, but it will still happen).


A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?

If it takes five machines five minutes to make five widgets, how long does it take 100 machines to make 100 widgets?

In a lake, there is a patch of lily pads. Every day, the patch doubles in size. If it takes 48 days for the patch to cover the entire lake, how long would it take for the patch to cover half of the lake?

You are in a race and you pass the person in second place. Which place are you now in?


These aren't examples of specific biases, these are just examples of system 1 thinking (intuition) interfering with system 2 (careful analysis).
 

SunnyJim

Well-Known Member
Want to see other examples where intuitive thinking interferes with analytical thinking?

Here are four questions, none of which are difficult to answer. The point is that your brain will supply you with a knee-jerk intuitive answer that upon further reflection will turn out to be wrong. (of course this will happen less now that I have warned you, but it will still happen).


A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?

If it takes five machines five minutes to make five widgets, how long does it take 100 machines to make 100 widgets?

In a lake, there is a patch of lily pads. Every day, the patch doubles in size. If it takes 48 days for the patch to cover the entire lake, how long would it take for the patch to cover half of the lake?

You are in a race and you pass the person in second place. Which place are you now in?


These aren't examples of specific biases, these are just examples of system 1 thinking (intuition) interfering with system 2 (careful analysis).
Awesome.

1. 5 cents.

2. 5 mins.

3. still thinking... gimme a couple minutes..

4. 2nd place.

EDIT:

3. 47 days. That took longer than it should have.. bongsmilie
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Awesome.

1. 5 cents.

2. 5 mins.

3. still thinking... gimme a couple minutes..

4. 2nd place.

EDIT:

3. 47 days. That took longer than it should have.. bongsmilie
Yep. They're not hard to answer, given the chance. But when we add a clock and give students only one minute per problem, we get these results.

"MIT students average a little over 2 questions right, and the full sample in the study, consisting mostly of college students, averaged a little over 1 question right."

"Among all the possible wrong answers people could give, the posited intuitive answers (10, 100 and 24) dominate. Second, even among those responding correctly, the wrong answer was often considered first, as is apparent from introspection, verbal reports and scribbles in the margin (for example, 10 cents was often crossed out next to 5 cents, but never the other way around). Third, when asked to judge problem difficulty respondents who missed the problems thought they were easier than the respondents who solved them."

http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Shane-Frederick-Cognitive-Reflection-and-Decision-Making.pdf
 

SunnyJim

Well-Known Member
Yep. They're not hard to answer, given the chance. But when we add a clock and give students only one minute per problem, we get these results.

"MIT students average a little over 2 questions right, and the full sample in the study, consisting mostly of college students, averaged a little over 1 question right."

"Among all the possible wrong answers people could give, the posited intuitive answers (10, 100 and 24) dominate. Second, even among those responding correctly, the wrong answer was often considered first, as is apparent from introspection, verbal reports and scribbles in the margin (for example, 10 cents was often crossed out next to 5 cents, but never the other way around). Third, when asked to judge problem difficulty respondents who missed the problems thought they were easier than the respondents who solved them."

http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Shane-Frederick-Cognitive-Reflection-and-Decision-Making.pdf
You are describing my thought process here! I was given two unfair advantages - I was warned that they were critical thinking questions, and there was no time limit (which completely changes the complexion).
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
You are describing my thought process here! I was given two unfair advantages - I was warned that they were critical thinking questions, and there was no time limit (which completely changes the complexion).
I was exposed to them in the same way, but you can still use them to experience the phenomenon.

Another way is to experience stroop interference.

 

WeedFreak78

Well-Known Member
Want to see other examples where intuitive thinking interferes with analytical thinking?

Here are four questions, none of which are difficult to answer. The point is that your brain will supply you with a knee-jerk intuitive answer that upon further reflection will turn out to be wrong. (of course this will happen less now that I have warned you, but it will still happen).


A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs $1 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?

If it takes five machines five minutes to make five widgets, how long does it take 100 machines to make 100 widgets?

In a lake, there is a patch of lily pads. Every day, the patch doubles in size. If it takes 48 days for the patch to cover the entire lake, how long would it take for the patch to cover half of the lake?

You are in a race and you pass the person in second place. Which place are you now in?


These aren't examples of specific biases, these are just examples of system 1 thinking (intuition) interfering with system 2 (careful analysis).
$0.05
1 minute
47 days
1st, maybe 3rd
 

WeedFreak78

Well-Known Member
I was exposed to them in the same way, but you can still use them to experience the phenomenon.

Another way is to experience stroop interference.

That was harder than I thought, kind of annoying when your fighting your own brain trying to do something. My roommate said I sounded like I was having a stroke, lol. I saw another video about that once but it flashed one word at a time, rather than all at once. It was easy to just stare at a single spot, focus on the color and ignore the actual word.
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
One puzzle that fucked with my mind the MOST, was the Monty Hall problem. That was the best example to witness why our intuition is simply not a great way to judge reality. It STILL doesn't sit well with me, but me and my kid did over 50 examples and there is no arguing with the results...

 
Last edited:

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Let's look at the definition of confirmation bias.

"Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities."

Confirmation bias can work in both passive and active situations, but it involves pre-existing ideas. The ideas may (or may not) originally come from other biases, but if there is nothing to confirm, then it's not confirmation bias. (that is to say, it's not what the term was invented to describe)

In my example, we did not suspect a killer outside until we heard the noise. And in the absence of the horror movie, we didn't suspect a killer even when hearing the noise.
I contend that the idea in your example was preexisting. It came in the wake of the sensory input. We can argue what sort of cognitive event generated the bias. But it is post-perceptual cognition and thus fully qualifies as a confirmation bias.
If we turn over the 4 and see an 'A', that would mean "If A then 4,"
No. It only means "if this A then this 4". I do not see a supporting argument for generalizing from individual to class. Since I am logically constrained from that general statement, I will not use it to support the next:
which falsifies the premise of "If A then 7." However, there has been some dispute about whether or not this is due purely to confirmation bias. As you pointed out, some people tend think the statement works both ways. "If A then 7" they take to mean as "If 7 then A", in which case the error is due to a logical mistake rather than confirmation bias.
Were that so, I would agree. However we have 3 cards ... one A and three non-A. By the way you constructed the example, "if A then 7" refers not at all to the three non-A cards. To make any substantive statement about non-A cards, you must provide more info.
Yet, this error isn't possible on the 4. So, failing to see the 4 as relevant is most likely due to the bias.
My analysis says No. No bias, merely correct assignment of domain.
This is known as the Wason card problem (or Wason selection task). Also interesting, the bias has less influence if we change the factors from arbitrary symbols to actual conditions. (Such as: Let the cards show "beer," "cola," "16 years," and "22 years." On one side of each card is the name of a drink; on the other side is the age of the drinker. What card(s) must be turned over to determine if the following statement is false? If a person is drinking beer, then the person is over 19-years-old.)

http://skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons/lesson3.html
I see you misassigning and distorting logic and its foundation, premise and domain definition. This is why I am calling intellectual dishonesty. You continue to defend this example with what looks to me like more stubbornness than reason, and with a subtly deceptive premise and domain definition.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I contend that the idea in your example was preexisting. It came in the wake of the sensory input. We can argue what sort of cognitive event generated the bias. But it is post-perceptual cognition and thus fully qualifies as a confirmation bias.
For the sake of clarity, would you mind if we focus on the availability heuristic and hash out the wason selection task sometime after. I have no intention of dodging that subject.

Lets look at another example of the availability heuristic. This is one taught to students as an example of the phenomenon. I'm curious if you also see this as confirmation bias.


"In the last few months I have seen nearly a dozen reports of people being attacked by sharks while swimming. I'm not going near the beach this year."

If we see lots of shark attacks in the news, we may get the idea that sharks are out of control and avoid going to the beach. This is a classic example of the availability heuristic. This is due to the frequency with which we have seen the example (the news loves to report shark attacks). The more we see it, the easier it comes to mind. However, vividness of an example has also been shown to make the example more available. So, the same aversion of beaches can be triggered if we have just watched the movie Jaws. We are, essentially, misjudging the statistical likelihood of being attacked by a shark. In my example, we have misjudged the likelihood of there being a serial killer outside. We have not confirmed any prior belief. The idea didn't exist until we heard the noise. (https://visualbloke.wordpress.com/2012/02/11/sharks-and-the-availability-bias/)

The wiki page on this heuristic sums up and gives references to the research behind both frequency and vividness being factors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic

"In general, availability is correlated with ecological frequency, but it is also affected by other factors. Consequently, the reliance on the availability heuristic leads to systematic biases. Such biases are demonstrated in the judged frequency of classes of words, of combinatorial outcomes, and of repeated events. The phenomenon of illusory correlation is explained as an availability bias."

"Two studies with 108 undergraduates investigated vivid information and its impact on social judgment and the availability heuristic and its role in mediating vividness effects. . .Such effects have typically been attributed to the ready accessibility of vividly presented information in memory—that is, to the availability heuristic. In both studies, vividness affected both availability (ability to recall) and judgments. However, causal modeling results indicated that the availability heuristic did not play a role in the (social) judgment process."

The availability heuristic is often confused with confirmation bias. It's not a new thing, or something that is just occurring between the two of us.


Here is another cognitive phenomenon that is often confused with confirmation bias.

'Have you ever had a conversation in which some old movie was mentioned, something like “The Golden Child” or maybe even something more obscure?

You are flipping channels one night and all of the sudden you see “The Golden Child” is playing. Weird. The next day you are reading a news story, and out of nowhere it mentions forgotten movies from the 1980s, and holy shit, three paragraphs about “The Golden Child.” You see a trailer that night at the theater for a new Eddie Murphy movie, and then you see a billboard on the street promoting Charlie Murphy doing stand-up in town, and then one of your friends sends you a link to a post at TMZ showing recent photos of the actress from “The Golden Child.” Is the universe trying to tell you something?'

This sounds very much like confirmation bias, and no doubt that some of the same mental mechanics are at play (selective attention, pattern recognition, ect), however, what would we be confirming? This is known as the frequency illusion. Again, the main difference is the active pursuit of truth. The frequency illusion can give rise to false ideas, but until we have those ideas, there is nothing to confirm.

I see you misassigning and distorting logic and its foundation, premise and domain definition. This is why I am calling intellectual dishonesty. You continue to defend this example with what looks to me like more stubbornness than reason, and with a subtly deceptive premise and domain definition.
I am defending the example based on what I have been taught and how I understand biases. I may be wrong of course, but I am not being stubborn. What you have offered so far has not convinced me that I'm wrong, and, to be respectfully frank, what you have offered seems to be somewhat of a misconception of biases. For example, there is no "reason tree" to biases. They come intuitively. They can, of course, immediately be backed up by fallacious logic, but the logical mistakes are separate from the biases.

What I have tried to show is that there are distinctions between the availability heuristic and confirmation bias, and those distinctions are not simply shrewd attempts by me to save face. They are recognized by researchers and professors in the field of cognition. The availability heuristic involves estimating the frequencies of events on the basis of how easily we can call to mind what we perceive as relevant information of a phenomenon, and confirmation bias is when we seek or interpret information based on prior belief.

What you have not shown is what belief existed prior to hearing the noise. What did the noise confirm? Why, when we hear a noise while watching something innocuous, like a nature documentary or American Idol, do we suspect animals (or neighbors, or something that actually is likely) rather than a serial killer?
 
Last edited:

Dr.Pecker

Well-Known Member
One puzzle that fucked with my mind the MOST, was the Monty Hall problem. That was the best example to witness why our intuition is simply not a great way to judge reality. It STILL doesn't sit well with me, but me and my kid did over 50 examples and there is no arguing with the results...

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top