"They're not all bad"

[Fogdog]

I intentionally did not read any comments beyond your original topic post. I don't want to get drawn into the trolling.

"They are not all bad." Of course this is true. Most Muslims are decent people that I would be happy to have as neighbors. They have a goofy religion, but so do Mormons, Baptists, and Catholics. This is America, and that shit is black-letter-law tolerated.

Of course not all cops are bad. I think a relatively small percentage are inherently evil. Like it or not, we need cops. Personally, I avoid them because they are not pleasant people, but they serve a valid purpose.

In both groups, the actions of a small percentage makes the whole group look bad.

Why are these two groups demonized? For the same reason any group is demonized: tribalism. That is human nature. The truly evil among us (the two political parties, and their lackies) exploit that human tendency for their own purposes.

All klan racist rat fink cops are bad. Every dam one of them dude.

 

[althor]

I posted this on the LEO sub on Reddit;

"Are there any potential consequences for criticizing your department or a fellow officer if you know they're wrong or broke the law?"

Here is the response I've gotten so far;

"Publicly criticizing? Absolutely. You are expected to submit a complaint about illegal conduct through the chain of command. This starts an internal investigation, ending with termination and arrest where appropriate.

Are there consequences for submitting a chain of command complaint? None that won't get you early retirement. Retaliatory conduct usually ends in the person walking away with a huge settlement.

The Blue Wall of Silence is a big myth. A cop's job is to report the truth. No cop is going to risk their family's livelihood to cover for a lawbreaker. We report the truth in any incident that happens. Unless you plan on paying my mortgage, don't expect me to lie for you.

The bonus is, telling the truth usually helps everyone."

"Thanks for the reply

Why do you think the myth of the blue wall of silence is so prevalent?"

(different person replied to my comment)

"Movies, TV, news harping on 0.000001% of actually crooked cops"


Thoughts on this?

That is so much baloney. I have personally experienced cops lying on numerous occasions.

Just look at BKs "Patrick" video. Cop lies about asking for id over and over. Cops lie plain and simple.

 

[ThickStemz]

I bet if you're a conservative, hearing those words reminds you of a progressive talking about Islam/Muslims

I bet if you're a liberal, hearing those words reminds you of a conservative arguing in support of American cops


So I think there has to be something more to this kind of argument than what's on the surface.. Is this a flaw in our reasoning? It should be obvious that not all Muslims are bad people just like not all cops are bad people, so why do we argue as if they all are? What does demonizing entire groups of people actually accomplish in the end and if it doesn't accomplish anything, why do we do it?

I want to respond to your op without reading any of the thread first. Why do we do that? Laziness. Simply forgetting to make the distinction. But also, out of recognition that even many of the ones who pass for 'decent' members of those groups are at the same time capable of supporting the bad ones to an extent we do not like. No way of being able to tell which are good and which we consider bad, until possibly it's too late. And the consequences of being wrong.

 

[Flaming Pie]

Instead, we need the kind of ingrained professionalism that says a bad cop is a liability to himself, his team, policing at large AND the public safety and therefore must be excised from the force as quickly as possible, so as not to endanger the rest of us.

That's a damned tall order, and it's a lot harder to instill and enforce than 'us vs them'. But it is the only way.

Yes. This.

 

[Flaming Pie]

I posted this on the LEO sub on Reddit;

"Are there any potential consequences for criticizing your department or a fellow officer if you know they're wrong or broke the law?"

Here is the response I've gotten so far;

"Publicly criticizing? Absolutely. You are expected to submit a complaint about illegal conduct through the chain of command. This starts an internal investigation, ending with termination and arrest where appropriate.

Are there consequences for submitting a chain of command complaint? None that won't get you early retirement. Retaliatory conduct usually ends in the person walking away with a huge settlement.

The Blue Wall of Silence is a big myth. A cop's job is to report the truth. No cop is going to risk their family's livelihood to cover for a lawbreaker. We report the truth in any incident that happens. Unless you plan on paying my mortgage, don't expect me to lie for you.

The bonus is, telling the truth usually helps everyone."

"Thanks for the reply

Why do you think the myth of the blue wall of silence is so prevalent?"

(different person replied to my comment)

"Movies, TV, news harping on 0.000001% of actually crooked cops"


Thoughts on this?

If people think cops arent doing their job then those people should either apply for the job or find people to do the job.

 

[Lacedwitgame]

"Im not a bad guy i swear...im one of the good ones i promise, however....i know there are cruel & unjust laws out there & some dirty motherfuckers that uphold them.......im going to willingly sign up to be there coworker & support ALL my thin blue line brothers while enforcing these fucked up dumb laws......whether theyre good guys or not............but hey im still a good guy rite?"

 

[ttystikk]

I posted this on the LEO sub on Reddit;

"Are there any potential consequences for criticizing your department or a fellow officer if you know they're wrong or broke the law?"

Here is the response I've gotten so far;

"Publicly criticizing? Absolutely. You are expected to submit a complaint about illegal conduct through the chain of command. This starts an internal investigation, ending with termination and arrest where appropriate.

Are there consequences for submitting a chain of command complaint? None that won't get you early retirement. Retaliatory conduct usually ends in the person walking away with a huge settlement.

The Blue Wall of Silence is a big myth. A cop's job is to report the truth. No cop is going to risk their family's livelihood to cover for a lawbreaker. We report the truth in any incident that happens. Unless you plan on paying my mortgage, don't expect me to lie for you.

The bonus is, telling the truth usually helps everyone."

"Thanks for the reply

Why do you think the myth of the blue wall of silence is so prevalent?"

(different person replied to my comment)

"Movies, TV, news harping on 0.000001% of actually crooked cops"


Thoughts on this?

I think it very much depends on the leaders and the culture of that individual department.

NYPD has a serious problem, as does New Orleans PD. Other departments are role models.

I bet there's plenty of bad cops and departments in small towns and rural counties all over this country. The challenge is to find them and root them out, wherever they may be.

 

[ttystikk]

Yes. This.

It's this or fascism.

 

[cannabineer]

Good point.

Some laws are clearly immoral, cops agree to enforce ALL laws. By doing so, they explicitly admit either they are immoral or that they are magically exempt from being responsible for their own actions when they enforce immoral laws, which is of course absurd.

Either way, they are willingly and knowingly engaging in immoral acts for pay, hence they are bad.

How would you balance the dilemma: the clear virtue of loyalty to the chain of command, to which you contracted when taking the oath and the job, vs.
the peril to personal honor by endorsing the group's (official and codified) policy?

It isn't so simple imo. You could decline the job, but in this employment climate the price of protecting against not immediate but potential dishonor is high, especially if you have a family. The moral geography gets some terrain then.

 

[Olive Drab Green]

The moral geography gets some terrain then.

Very eloquent. I like that.

 

[bundee1]

I think it very much depends on the leaders and the culture of that individual department.

NYPD has a serious problem, as does New Orleans PD. Other departments are role models.

I bet there's plenty of bad cops and departments in small towns and rural counties all over this country. The challenge is to find them and root them out, wherever they may be.

My friends dad was a detective in the dirty 30(th precinct). My brother calped him Maniac Cop. He used to beat his wife and my friend. They got a restraining order against him. He's still a detective and I don't ask him about it anymore but as teenagers we used to mess with him about his crazy dad coming to school to secretly threaten kids who fucked with him. True story.

 

[Olive Drab Green]

Fuck that shit. Soldiery was one thing. I did it for the same reason the Romans did. They used to put their youngest that came of age (like, 12, or some shit) on the front line to learn life lessons. They called these young soldiers who walked at the front "infantum." Meaning youth. Turned out, I learned a lot, but I lost a lot and I suffered a lot, too. But I think the good came with the bad. Cops, though? I dunno, man. Something doesn't sit right with me about enforcing immoral laws and policing the public. Like, contrary to popular belief, we're not over there, up in the Afghani peoples' shit. We were not looking for them, we were looking for Taliban, rallied old Mujahideen who support them, terrorist cell personnel such as guys from the Haqqani Network. I can't fathom the idea of controlling peoples' everyday lives.

We need protection, but no one needs to be invaded. So, cops should weigh what actions they take. They are not 100% bound to take action, they can decide to not sweat shit that isn't worth the paperwork.

 

[cannabineer]

~snip~ I can't fathom the idea of controlling peoples' everyday lives. ~snip~

Fastest way to ruin an army is occupation duty.

 

[ttystikk]

My friends dad was a detective in the dirty 30(th precinct). My brother calped him Maniac Cop. He used to beat his wife and my friend. They got a restraining order against him. He's still a detective and I don't ask him about it anymore but as teenagers we used to mess with him about his crazy dad coming to school to secretly threaten kids who fucked with him. True story.

It's people like that who must be kicked out of the force, with a black mark so they can't just go to another department and pick up where they left off.

Did his behavior make you trust police? Lol

 

[bundee1]

I still thought it was an isolated incident because this was before youtube.

It's people like that who must be kicked out of the force, with a black mark so they can't just go to another department and pick up where they left off.

Did his behavior make you trust police? Lol

 

[MrRoboto]

Instead, we need the kind of ingrained professionalism that says a bad cop is a liability to himself, his team, policing at large AND the public safety and therefore must be excised from the force as quickly as possible, so as not to endanger the rest of us.

That's a damned tall order, and it's a lot harder to instill and enforce than 'us vs them'. But it is the only way.

Did you order the code red?

You're god damned right I did.

 

[Rob Roy]

How would you balance the dilemma: the clear virtue of loyalty to the chain of command, to which you contracted when taking the oath and the job, vs.
the peril to personal honor by endorsing the group's (official and codified) policy?

It isn't so simple imo. You could decline the job, but in this employment climate the price of protecting against not immediate but potential dishonor is high, especially if you have a family. The moral geography gets some terrain then.

When loyalty within a chain of command conflicts with loyalty to your own conscience and grounded moral principles, it's time to get another job or not accept and except the unconscionable one in the first place.

There is no virtue in adherence to a chain of command which routinely requires you to set your conscience aside.

Do you remember the My Lai massacre ?

 

[Unclebaldrick]

If people think cops arent doing their job then those people should either apply for the job or find people to do the job.

Yeah, great idea. And if I don't like my auto mechanic I should go to Lincoln Tech. If the butcher sucks I should raise my own beef and learn to butcher it myself. If TV sucks I should write my own shows and start a TV network. If there is a bad doctor, just go to med school.

No thanks. I live in a society.

 

[Rob Roy]

Yeah, great idea. And if I don't like my auto mechanic I should go to Lincoln Tech. If the butcher sucks I should raise my own beef and learn to butcher it myself. If TV sucks I should write my own shows and start a TV network. If there is a bad doctor, just go to med school.

No thanks. I live in a society.

In a free market you would be able to either buy marijuana from any number of unlicensed people offering their produce or grow your own, or not use it if it's not your thing. Of course other commodities and services should be available in the same way.

 

[Unclebaldrick]

In a free market you would be able to either buy marijuana from any number of unlicensed people offering their produce or grow your own, or not use it if it's not your thing. Of course other commodities and services should be available in the same way.