Mag probelm? True Aero setup

[greenthumb21]

Need some help, but thinking this is a magnesium def.

leaves are currling not only up but also twisting too.

True High Pressure aero set up, started from seeds( 3 types) placed in rockwool for about 1.5 weeks and then into the aero setup about a week ago.

Using Ionic grow for neuts, RO water PPM is 280 and PH 5.5-5.9 but stays close to 5.7most of the time. temp is 78-80, nuets are about 78, not sure about humidity, going to run out and get a good temp/humidity guage right now.

Lights are not that close, I can place my wrist or back of my hand right at the top of the plants and not get hot at all, but did raise my lights about 4" 3 days ago at first signs of the currling leaves.

Thanks

 

[greenthumb21]

Ok got a temp/humidity guage in there and temp is right at 79F and humidity is 48%.

anyone have an opinion to my babies?

 

[Al B. Fuct]

All your conds sound right but the nute temp. Nutes are pretty warm at 78F (25.5C). Water loses most all its dissolved O2 at about 77F.

Could try chilling the res with refreezable cold packs, get it down to 67-70F; if that solves it, get a tank chiller or move the res out of the room to a cooler area.

Are you using H2O2 in your nutes? 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days will kill any pathogens, stabilising the pH as well as will put some O2 in the roots in spite of the high temp, since the H2O2 will be breaking down pathogens in the rootmass and releasing its O2 there rather than dissolving O2 in the water.

What's the nute strength in ppm? Doesn't look like a burn but you didn't specify the ppm.

 

[greenthumb21]

Thanks Al.

PPM is 280 and has been stable, ph has also been pretty stable right at 5.7

I did 2 nights ago top off the rez with RO water, when I got it back to the top PPM was down to 230, think that even though they are just over a week old they need more nutes? They have some reall killer roots going, and they are nice and white

I havent added the H2o2, really havent considered using, they have only been in the aero rig 9days total as of tonight, and I think they are looking real good except for this problem. I am using a 60PSI pump and some real real small misters, I have a fog coming out if I pull a net pot or end cap off. Thought that was doing the oxigination?

I was thinking of flushing the rez and seeing what happens with the nutes back to 300? I am using Ionic Grow, with no other sups.
Thanks

 

[Al B. Fuct]

Thanks Al.

PPM is 280 and has been stable,

good heavens, I thought that was the EC of your tapwater alone!

think that even though they are just over a week old they need more nutes?

Yes, they can go to about 800 now. If all goes well for a week, bump them to 1400-1600. With such good roots, they'll be quite happy with getting the nute strength up into the normal range rather soon.

I havent added the H2o2, really havent considered using,

With your res at 78F and nutes in the soln and no pathogen control, I'm surprised you're not seeing cloudy gelatinous gack forming in your res. H2O2 is really a necessary thing in nute tanks, otherwise your warm tank of yummy nutes will become home to any passing mould or fungus spores.

they have only been in the aero rig 9days total as of tonight, and I think they are looking real good except for this problem. I am using a 60PSI pump and some real real small misters, I have a fog coming out if I pull a net pot or end cap off. Thought that was doing the oxigination?

If there's little to no dissolved O2 in the water you're spraying due to high res temp, how is it getting into your mist? The spraying action will move air around within the rootzone tube along with the water droplets, but the tube is essentially sealed when the plants & end caps are in place. There's air in the tube but if that airmass isn't being occasionally exchanged with atmospheric air with more O2, the air in the tube around the roots may become depleted of O2. Not a real big deal at the moment with the plants so small but they are going to get bigger- fast!

H2O2 may provide all the oxygenation you need, but if you get the res temp down to increase its dissolved O2 carrying ability, an air pump & stone constantly running in the res will do the bulk of that job. It's actually not so easy to dissolve O2 in water if you're doing it with atmospheric air, which is around 78% nitrogen and only about 20% oxygen. You have to expose a lot of water surface area to a lot of air to effectively increase the DO content. Spraying itself won't put much O2 in the water droplets it's spraying; you're actually hoping to get your O2 in aero from the air in the nozzle/rootzone area which the spraying action moves about. H2O2 is very important for pathogen control, oxygenation is just a bonus as that can be done by other means.

I was thinking of flushing the rez and seeing what happens with the nutes back to 300? I am using Ionic Grow, with no other sups.

I think your nute strength could be higher. Always good to pare things down to basics.

Your new growth looks really pretty good. I think bumping the nutes to around 800 will see the veg growth shift along a bit, bigger fan leaves, more vert growth out of the mainstems, etc. You will soon be seeing an inch a day.

 

[greenthumb21]

Al Thanks for your help

An update and a few more questions/pics

It was mid day on the 1st before I could get the rez flushed and refilled, hit it with 800PPM nutes. But by the time I got up in the morning a lot of the plants had really started to turn for the worst(see first pic) turning real real yellow and brown splotches. Tuesday I was able to get to the store and get some 35%H2O2, which I dosed per your instructions. Now I had never had a cloudy rez till Wed when I got home from work... yep nice and cloudy, not to the point I couldnt see bottom, but not good. Pulled a bunch of net pots and dont see any rot, or browning of the roots. I have been having to chase the PH a bit, gets to about 5.8/9 and I drop it to 5.4/5 about every other day. Looks like I have an early case of root rot? I will be installing a chiller tomarrow, so is there anything more than just keep feeding them the H2O2 to fix the root problem? I should be running nutes at 68-70F right?

Also I really dont think the plants are growing much if at all. Now they have started to look better, stopped turning light in color and getting brown spots. the tops in the center have stoped(but look good), now it looks like I am getting new growth from underneath the top(splitting off the lower leaves) but these are not even 6" tall yet(4-5.5).

Are they stunted and will start back up shortly or are they going to grow sideways?

Thanks again

 

[Al B. Fuct]

I think the necrotic spots on the large fan leaf in the left of pic one is being caused by shooting the pH too low. That won't repair. The growth looks stunted; small bladed leaves, etc, could be related. We're looking for new growth to sort out as the plants recover.

The cloudy tank worries me a bit. It should be crystal clear especially with H2O2 in there. It should have foamed and fizzed a bit but you should have woken to a clear tank. How is it looking now? What's the pH & ppm?

You might pour a litre or so of nute soln though the pot tops to assure that H2O2 gets to the entire rootmass.

 

[greenthumb21]

Al. thanks again

Just an update with a few new pics, I just tonight got a chiller up and running, bought one from a guy, turns out it was low on R134a, so had to get it refilled, now I will get the nute temps down to 70F

Nutes were never real real cloudy and I kind of think it was the Hydroguard. When adding the H2O2, it has never fizzed/bubbled and the roots look good, and have really started to grow again over the last few days of cooler temps.

Temps have been right about 78-80 and nutes have been 77-78 except for the last 5-6 days where it has cooled off and got down to the lower 70's. With the cooler rez temps and after about a week of the new newts being treated with H2o2 and hydroguard they started to take off in growth again. Newts were run at 800PPM and PH 5.6-5.8 but a few times got up to 6.0-6.2 before I got it down to 5.5-5.6 Never has the PH been lower than 5.5, and this is with a calibrated milwalke meter.

Rez had started to get low, about 1/3 of the water loss and PPM was about steady the whole time, creaped up about to 840. started to notice just a bit of curle on the tips of a few leaves on one plant and a bit of lightning of the leaves on a few other plants with a few brown spots. since the nutes were 12 days old was thinking the plants could use new and a bump in ppm. 2 days ago mixed up a new batch 1100PPM and PH5.6 but some of the leaves that had started to change are still. I am thinking this is just from the last batch since things take time but wanted another opinion. For the most part the new growth over the last 4-5 days(just short of 1/2" a day) has been good, hope now that I got the chiller up and running they will take off.

BTW most plants are about 8" tall now, these things are crazzy bushy.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

All looking pretty good.

newts being treated with H2o2 and hydroguard

Hydroguard is a solution of living bacteria intended to compete with pathogens in an organic grow. H2O2 will instantly kill everything in Hydroguard. You don't get your choice of which microbes H2O2 will kill- it kills them all.

 

[TikiHutCrew420]

hey al i have a few questions for u about your every 2 week harvest plan
i would message them to u but u dont allow that so how may i ask u these questions

 

[Al B. Fuct]

You've touched on a great quandary for me.

If I turn on PMs, I get deluged with individual msgs and I can't answer them all, or I get 10 people asking me the same question, with no one seeing the discussion I'm having with the others, meaning I'm saying the same thing to 10 different people.

I've also tried to run an open thread where folks can ask me anything... and I then wind up putting 6+h/day into answering questions. I just can't put that kind of time into this right now.

Keep in mind that I'm not the only source of information about SoG or the 2-week rotation system. Your best bet, once you have gotten a good look at https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks.html is to start a thread in the hydroponics section. I'll drop in on it if I can.

 

[greenthumb21]

All looking pretty good.



Hydroguard is a solution of living bacteria intended to compete with pathogens in an organic grow. H2O2 will instantly kill everything in Hydroguard. You don't get your choice of which microbes H2O2 will kill- it kills them all.

Thanks Al, ya know I should know better than that with the H2O2 and hydrogard.... that would explain the cloudy rez tank right away and then clear up after about 4-5days. With getting the nutes down to 68F now, and treating this whole time every 3days with H2O2 would you continue with that or switch to the hydroguard. The roots look good, no sign of any bad things going on.

New growth has picked up a bunch, 1/2" a day or a little better. Thinking they are going to be ready to put into flower in a few days, they will be 12-16" tall then.

take a look at this pic, taken the same time as the last 2 but I zoomed in on a few leaves. This is happening on old, lower leaves. New growth is looking good though. PH is always slightly driffting up about .2/24hrs and tank is about 1340PPM right now, goes up say 40PPM a day, but water level is going down at a good rate. I am thinking calcium? I am using ONLY RO water and Ionic grow right now (plus H202)

 

[Al B. Fuct]

Thanks Al, ya know I should know better than that with the H2O2 and hydrogard.... that would explain the cloudy rez tank right away and then clear up after about 4-5days.

The bacteria in the Hydroguard will be consuming the H2O2. Use one or the other, but never both. H2O2 is much more effective at killing pathogens than competing bacteria.

New growth has picked up a bunch, 1/2" a day or a little better. Thinking they are going to be ready to put into flower in a few days, they will be 12-16" tall then.

Good to hear it, but keep in mind that plants will get 2-4x taller in the first 4 wks of flowering. Tall plants are not the indoor grower's friend. Even the mighty 1000HPS only penetrates foliage so deeply.

take a look at this pic, taken the same time as the last 2 but I zoomed in on a few leaves. This is happening on old, lower leaves. New growth is looking good though. PH is always slightly driffting up about .2/24hrs and tank is about 1340PPM right now, goes up say 40PPM a day, but water level is going down at a good rate. I am thinking calcium? I am using ONLY RO water and Ionic grow right now (plus H202)

The old leaf looks like there was some early damage from either Mg def or pH error causing Mg lockout, but you seem to have caught it reasonably quickly, preventing the leaves from going fully yellow, which is what I usually see in such cases.

Get on a program of treating with H2O2 ONLY. I think your pH drift is being caused by pathogens in the system.

The EC drift is minimal and is of no concern. It is most likely being caused by the plants using the water faster than the nutes. Obviously, if you take the water out of the nute soln faster than you take out the nutes, the nute strength will bump up. A larger tank will sort it out, but your drift is too small to worry about.

While it's OK to use RO water, it's not usually necessary if your tapwater comes from a modern municipal water treatment plant. Chlorine is your friend- it keeps water free of pathogens while in the pipes on the way to you and stops pathogen growth in your nute tank until the chlorine evaporates. After then, it's a microbial free-for-all unless you treat your tanks with an antipathogen agent like H2O2. Chlorination in the levels applied by modern water treatment facilities is harmless to people and plants. As a rule, if you can drink water from a certain source, it will grow fine plants.

 

[greenthumb21]

Thanks

yea when I first started to see some of that show up in the leaves I did a rez change and then upped it to 1200PPM, but all this week those leaves have continued to get worse, but the whole time new growth looks good and has picked up, but the last 2 days some newer growth has shown some of the same signs, the brown spots and some lightning..... I thought the brown is more a calc than mag?

yea a bigger rez would be nice but, cant happen easy, and this being my first go around.... I am finding and correcting things as they happen.

Since my tap water is only about 75-120, cant remember at the moment, just use that and dont mess with the RO?

Should I be up to 1800PPM or XXXX by now?

yea height is a problem, that is why I am going to give them a few more days and then kick them to 12/12 (24/7 now)swap out the blue bulbs to reds and then after a week change the nutes to the bloom and boost. I have a few plants that are still pretty short(6-7") or I would switch it now, thought I would give them a few more days to get going. This is going to be a T5 HO grow but the are overdriven to about 85watts a tube compaired to the standard 55watts.

These ladies ( I HOPE) are crazzy bushy, right now they are almost touching and they are just under 12" I will post up a pic when I take some more tonight.

Looks like I am going to have to get on the air filter problem now, have a slight smell, using some charcoal furnace filters 3 thick and its not working well enough, thinking about dumping some fish tank carbon between the layers.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

yea when I first started to see some of that show up in the leaves I did a rez change and then upped it to 1200PPM, but all this week those leaves have continued to get worse, but the whole time new growth looks good and has picked up, but the last 2 days some newer growth has shown some of the same signs, the brown spots and some lightning..... I thought the brown is more a calc than mag?

One thing you have to keep in mind is that nutrient deficiencies are actually very, very rare when you're using a decent quality nutrient from a well known maker at an appropriate strength. Most of the time when you see what appears to be deficiencies, it's caused by the pH being off, which locks out certain nutes:

If your pH is right (5.8 ) and nute strength is appropriate, then you go looking for other problems like pathogens, overwatering, room air temp, etc.

Shooting the pH as low as 5.5 as you previously did would have locked out P & Mg.

Where are you keeping the pH now?

Since my tap water is only about 75-120, cant remember at the moment, just use that and dont mess with the RO?

RO is fine to use, if you already have spent the dough for the RO gear. However, in 99.9999999% of cases, you just don't need it. If your tapwater is 75-120ppm, there's not a lot of impurities to remove.

Should I be up to 1800PPM or XXXX by now?

I think you should hold it to 1200 for the time being to see how the new growth goes. Waiting to hear about where your pH has been running.

Did you get the nute chiller going?

yea height is a problem, that is why I am going to give them a few more days and then kick them to 12/12 (24/7 now)swap out the blue bulbs to reds and then after a week change the nutes to the bloom and boost. I have a few plants that are still pretty short(6-7") or I would switch it now, thought I would give them a few more days to get going. This is going to be a T5 HO grow but the are overdriven to about 85watts a tube compaired to the standard 55watts.

Rotsaruck. T5s are still fluoros. Fine for clones & mums, not so flash for flowering.

Looks like I am going to have to get on the air filter problem now, have a slight smell, using some charcoal furnace filters 3 thick and its not working well enough, thinking about dumping some fish tank carbon between the layers.

Might work. One thing to consider is the type of exhaust blower you're using. If it is an axial type as opposed to a centrifugal, it won't like working into a lot of obstruction. Axials can't develop a lot of pressure for things like filters.

 

[greenthumb21]

Al

Thanks for that chart, that thing should be a sticky at the top of this forum. Every thing I had seen said PH 5.5-6.5 I had been shooting for the low end (5.5-5.6)now I see(after it smacked me across the forehead) what I have been doing wrong, I will let it get up 5.8 and make that now my low end and let it drift between 5.8-6.0.

Chiller is up and working great, Rez Temp is right at 70F. room is 78F and humidity is ~55%

RO is also used for Salt Water Reef tanks, so not going to be wasted not using it for this.

Started out using an axial, but not one of the High$$$$ hydro shop ones, thought I could get away with less air flow..... Had to swap that out and put a centrifugal squirl cage type blower in..... works a lot better

Thanks again

 

[Al B. Fuct]

I'm glad that the chart turned some lights on for you. It's never good to have problems but it's great when you can find a likely reason for them.

I'm glad your fishies will enjoy the RO water.

Let me know how things look in a week or so after having the pH at 5.8.

 

[greenthumb21]

Al, thanks again for all your help.

This being my first go at hydro, I knew I bit off alot building my rig from scratch and then learning as I go. But hey I am pretty smart, and figured there would be a few mistakes along the way.

Found a BIG ONE, I found my major problem.

after finally getting the nutes temp down and in the proper PH range, they just havent been getting much better.

did some searching and couldnt figure out what the problem is and then I started thinking about the meter I use, its a HM com-100 with 3 diff temp compensation factors for both PPM and uS(EC)...... so between emailing the nut makers as to which one I should use( KCl,442,NaCl) they said to use the KCl temp compensation. ok that is what I had been using, so thats not the problem. then I started switching modes on the meter in cup of the nutes and my heart almost stoped while my PPM was 1400 on the meter, the EC was almost 2.8 never thought to check and see what scale my meter used.... it used the .5 conversion factor not the .7 like the truncheon so while I thought I had the right PPM i was burning the HELL out of my babies.

I should know better than that since I use to work in a damm lab testing water

How they dont look 100X worse than what they do I will never know. flushing the rez now and going to switch to bloom nutes since I put them into flower last week. and this time use the right PPM(1000)

I am wondering if it wouldnt be a good idea to run straight water for a day or 2?

 

[Al B. Fuct]

I thought I had the right PPM i was burning the HELL out of my babies.

damn.

I am wondering if it wouldnt be a good idea to run straight water for a day or 2?

Flush the media with 5.8 water until the EC of the runoff is the same as the the water used to flush, just to make sure that whatever is in there now is out.

If the plants have been nute burned, they'll have (more than) enough stored nutes for about 2 weeks. You might run them on 5.8 water for about a week and return to nutes at 800ppm once you're sure new growth is normal. Keep it at 800 for a week then increase it to the usual 1400 when you're confident they're tolerating that strength.

Curious, what sort of lighting do you have going in there now? One fella I'm talking to was on 1400ppm and was getting nute burn. Turns out he's using a 250 HPS. I'm guessing that there may not have been enough light to drive photosynthesis to tolerate 1400ppm. He's dropping back to 800 for a week to see if that doesn't sort it out.

 

[greenthumb21]

Yea exactly what I said once I figured out what my meter was telling me.

I just filled/flushed my tank with tap water 3times, I can switch on the pump/ cylinoied valve and pump my tank down, and the this is misting at the same time. with as much as it runs through, its flushed.

I will run them on straight tap water(118PPM) PH'd to 5.8 for the week and see what they do, Then up it after that if they are still rocking/looking better. I just switched to flower last week 12/12 with the lights and some were cranking the hight in, about 1-1.5" per day others only 1/2" but I have 3 types going WW,Purps and Juciey Fruit. I am guessing that is why the different growth rates.

The crazy thing is that a few plants show almost nothing wrong, not even the VERY tips show burn, untill you go down the plants about 5 or 6 nodes to real old growth do you then see any nute problems( probably PH at that point)

I am still using T5HO, but this isnt just any T5HO set up.

it uses IceCap 660 balasts that run T5Ho bulbs not at the 55watts but at 84watts per bulb/4ft, and using a VERY good reflector for each bulb, they are shaped like a upside down W, you probably know what they look like. I have done a ton of research on lighting for my reef tanks, a lot of people have ripped there MH out and gone T5HO over driven and have gotten the same light if not more with a lot less heat. Stick your head in over at reefcentral and you can find out alot this and also the GOOD electronic balasts. I caught one of your posts talking about them and for the most part agree with you but there are a few out there that actually do what they claim, icecap is one of those. I have also used the 660's for going on 12+years 12hrs a day and have yet to have one go bad, and a friend has had 1 running for probably over 15 years now and no problems.

Several reasons I wanted to use try T5 was Heat and height. I can run my lights right now almost to leaves touching them and no burn.

Thanks again Al.