The "D" day pool, best guess as to when Trump is out

Sour Wreck

Sour Wreck

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
SCOTUS makes the call and all the experts say he can't pardon himself, with major crimes including espionage hanging over his head, I figure jail until they do. The last time I checked those folks on the court watch the news and apprehend the danger to the country and constitution, even Trump's own appointment will turn on him, no man is above the law trumps all other considerations. Even those he pardons might have a fight for their freedom if they are part of a conspiracy that also involves him, like election fraud, or conspiring with a hostile power, RICO might also apply. When he is removed from office, he's just another citizen and he'll be a sorry one too. Tradition causes ex presidents are treated with deference, Trump has shit upon tradition and it's gonna shit on him. He knows this, which is why he is panicking bigly, and so he should, many have died for far less.
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he and white evangelicals are about to become the most hated americans alive.
 
greg nr

greg nr

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
SCOTUS makes the call and all the experts say he can't pardon himself, with major crimes including espionage hanging over his head, I figure jail until they do. The last time I checked those folks on the court watch the news and apprehend the danger to the country and constitution, even Trump's own appointment will turn on him, no man is above the law trumps all other considerations. Even those he pardons might have a fight for their freedom if they are part of a conspiracy that also involves him, like election fraud, or conspiring with a hostile power, RICO might also apply. When he is removed from office, he's just another citizen and he'll be a sorry one too. Tradition causes ex presidents to be treated with deference, Trump has shit upon tradition and it's gonna shit on him. He knows this, which is why he is panicking bigly, and so he should, many have died for far less.
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Not the way pardons work. A pardon is an iron clad defense (until it is vacated) since by definition, you are not guilty of the crimes you were pardoned of. "Any and all crimes against the United States". It doesn't matter if it's treason, murder, or child rape. You are not guilty and can't be jailed or punished in any way.

It would be like the gov't putting you in jail, without trial, without charging you with a crime. They can't do that.

To hold someone in jail, you have to charge them with a specific crime. You go before a judge who approves the charges and arraigns you. That judge decides if you are held in jail or get out on bail pending trial.

A judge would toss the charges if a pardon is in place. Even if a judge rules the pardon is invalid, they likely wouldn't hold a defendant in jail pending appeal.

And the scotus would decide it, which is to say john roberts would decide it since we know how the other 8 would vote. Roberts is an originalist. We probably wouldn't like the eventual decision. SCOTUS is a politicized body. It always has been.

But no matter how the court rules, we should push for a constitutional amendment to declare that a potus may not pardon themselves, co-conspirators, or direct family members without a 2/3 vote in both houses to approve it. No person should be above the law. It can even be done retroactively, thus revoking any pardons granted by the pretender in chief.
 
Justin-case

Justin-case

Well-Known Member
greg nr said:
Not the way pardons work. A pardon is an iron clad defense (until it is vacated) since by definition, you are not guilty of the crimes you were pardoned of. "Any and all crimes against the United States". It doesn't matter if it's treason, murder, or child rape. You are not guilty and can't be jailed or punished in any way.

It would be like the gov't putting you in jail, without trial, without charging you with a crime. They can't do that.

To hold someone in jail, you have to charge them with a specific crime. You go before a judge who approves the charges and arraigns you. That judge decides if you are held in jail or get out on bail pending trial.

A judge would toss the charges if a pardon is in place. Even if a judge rules the pardon is invalid, they likely wouldn't hold a defendant in jail pending appeal.

And the scotus would decide it, which is to say john roberts would decide it since we know how the other 8 would vote. Roberts is an originalist. We probably wouldn't like the eventual decision. SCOTUS is a politicized body. It always has been.

But no matter how the court rules, we should push for a constitutional amendment to declare that a potus may not pardon themselves, co-conspirators, or direct family members without a 2/3 vote in both houses to approve it. No person should be above the law. It can even be done retroactively, thus revoking any pardons granted by the pretender in chief.
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From what I understand a pardon comes with an admission, or assumtion of guilt, in other words you have to be convicted of a crime to receive one. I also believe the convicted criminal gives up their fifth amendment rights pertaining to the crime when accepting a pardon. If they were a co conspirator, the president could then be open to prosecution for obstructing through the testimony of a co conspirator.

I'm sure trump will try anything to save his ass, legal or not, so we have to assume special circumstances for the down fall of his white priveleged, lying fat ass.
 
greg nr

greg nr

Well-Known Member
Justin-case said:
From what I understand a pardon comes with an admission, or assumtion of guilt, in other words you have to be convicted of a crime to receive one. I also believe the convicted criminal gives up their fifth amendment rights pertaining to the crime when accepting a pardon. If they were a co conspirator, the president could then be open to prosecution for obstructing through the testimony of a co conspirator.

I'm sure trump will try anything to save his ass, legal or not, so we have to assume special circumstances for the down fall of his white priveleged, lying fat ass.
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No, the pardon power is broad and absolute. You don't even need to be charged. The only limitation known is that you can't pardon future crimes. That would be a carte blanche, and it isn't a part of english common law, which is where the definition of a pardon originated.

Remember Richard Nixon? Gerald Ford pardoned him before any charges were brought.

President Ford issued a presidential pardon (Proclamation 4311) on September 8, 1974, which granted former president Richard Nixon a full and unconditional pardon for any crimes he might have committed against the United States while president (Wikipedia).
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But it looks like we will need another yes vote to convict. This one doesn't look very certain.

Manchin goes full MAGA
Source: Politico



The vulnerable West Virginia Democrat is embracing Donald Trump, figuratively and literally: ‘We just kind of do the man-bump type thing.’

By BURGESS EVERETT 06/06/2018 04:02 AM EDT

RANSON, W.Va. — Joe Manchin wants you to know he really likes Donald Trump.

The West Virginia senator doesn’t put it quite that way. But more than any other Democrat in Congress, he's positioned himself as a vocal Trump ally. In fact, the senator, up for reelection in a state Trump won by more than 40 points, told POLITICO he isn’t ruling out endorsing Trump for reelection in 2020 — a position practically unheard of for a politician with a “D” next to his name.

“I’m open to supporting the person who I think is best for my country and my state,” Manchin said this week from the driver’s seat of his Grand Cherokee, insisting he’s game to work with any president of either party. “If his policies are best, I’ll be right there.”

Trump’s popularity in West Virginia has Republicans salivating over the prospect of knocking off the legendary 70-year-old senator and former governor this fall. In response, Manchin is sidling up to the president — his policies, his nominees, at times even Trump himself — as the independent-minded Democrat prepares for the toughest race of his career against GOP state Attorney General Patrick Morrisey.

Read more: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/06/manchin-trump-west-virginia-midterms-626437
​
 
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PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
What's the best guess as to when Donald Trump will leave office, either by resignation or impeachment? Bonus points if ya guess either obstruction of justice or conspiracy with the russians and get it right too.

I'll go with March 15th, figure things should come to a head about then. In spite of the best efforts of the republican congress to obstruct justice, coddle and protect him.

The first or second day of the new congress after the midterm elections, might be a good choice too, provided the country survives and the republicans are half as stupid as I think they are.

"D" is for Donald and Downfall, "D" day traditionally marks a turning point in the fight against fascism.
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Not before this POS goes http://commonsensewonder.blogspot.com/2018/06/sources-wasserman-schultz-screamed-at.html
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
greg nr said:
No, the pardon power is broad and absolute. You don't even need to be charged. The only limitation known is that you can't pardon future crimes. That would be a carte blanche, and it isn't a part of english common law, which is where the definition of a pardon originated.

Remember Richard Nixon? Gerald Ford pardoned him before any charges were brought.

President Ford issued a presidential pardon (Proclamation 4311) on September 8, 1974, which granted former president Richard Nixon a full and unconditional pardon for any crimes he might have committed against the United States while president (Wikipedia).
​
But it looks like we will need another yes vote to convict. This one doesn't look very certain.

Manchin goes full MAGA
Source: Politico



The vulnerable West Virginia Democrat is embracing Donald Trump, figuratively and literally: ‘We just kind of do the man-bump type thing.’

By BURGESS EVERETT 06/06/2018 04:02 AM EDT

RANSON, W.Va. — Joe Manchin wants you to know he really likes Donald Trump.

The West Virginia senator doesn’t put it quite that way. But more than any other Democrat in Congress, he's positioned himself as a vocal Trump ally. In fact, the senator, up for reelection in a state Trump won by more than 40 points, told POLITICO he isn’t ruling out endorsing Trump for reelection in 2020 — a position practically unheard of for a politician with a “D” next to his name.

“I’m open to supporting the person who I think is best for my country and my state,” Manchin said this week from the driver’s seat of his Grand Cherokee, insisting he’s game to work with any president of either party. “If his policies are best, I’ll be right there.”

Trump’s popularity in West Virginia has Republicans salivating over the prospect of knocking off the legendary 70-year-old senator and former governor this fall. In response, Manchin is sidling up to the president — his policies, his nominees, at times even Trump himself — as the independent-minded Democrat prepares for the toughest race of his career against GOP state Attorney General Patrick Morrisey.

Read more: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/06/manchin-trump-west-virginia-midterms-626437
​
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Manchin is dealing with a high percentage of idiots in his state, though I figure he could be harder on Trump and win, when the time comes it'll be thumbs down for Donald if this guy wins. Of more concern is the sleazy move by McConnell not to recess the senate during campaign season, but I figure folks are on to that and the Dems will substitute some heavy hitters like Obama and Biden for them on the campaign trail.

I don't think Pence will pardon Trump, even if he promises him he will (one of the best bald face liars I've ever seen), no honor among thieves or traitors either. Donald can't pardon himself, he will try a secret pardon for himself and wave it around, but I figure they expect that and will deal with it accordingly.

Mueller has lots of time to charge the principals and even though Trump can pardon for past crimes, it's hard to know which ones to pardon if they haven't been charged yet and then there's the russians, who might have to be pardoned too, if the family is to be pardoned... If they haven't been charged federally they can be indicted by NY state, so can Donald come to think of it. Mueller has other ways to "smoke Donald out", what's interesting is Jeff Sessions role in all this, he's acting uncharacteristically like a good citizen in this area of his portfolio, a savage heathen in all others. He's cock blocking Donald for a reason and it's clearly driving Donald nuts, he must have a secret deal or at least a hope of getting off on perjury. Donald appears to be boxed in and they must be driving him like a steer down the shoot to his execution, if not end the investigation now, there are lots of ways of doing it. Something's keeping this process going and Donald squirming and screaming, somebody must figure on some breaking news to resolve this.

Mueller is squeezing Maniforts nuts to the cracking point and I wonder how Paulie is gonna like prison. Depending on Donald for anything is a mistake and I don't think Mueller needs Manafort to make the case against Trump, it would be nice, since he is a direct link to russia. They probably got Manafort for so much shit that even if he cut a deal he'd still spend the rest of his life in jail.

Trump is in deep shit and the only way out is to go for a power grab and become "Fuhrer for life", Die Trumpenfuhrer!
A few folks might have something to say about that, not the GOP congress though, only Heil Trumpenfuhrer from them.

There's still a couple of weeks left until the first day of summer and the circle is closing in, with Donald a week can be a very long time.
 
Unclebaldrick

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
Manchin is dealing with a high percentage of idiots in his state, though I figure he could be harder on Trump and win, when the time comes it'll be thumbs down for Donald if this guy wins. Of more concern is the sleazy move by McConnell not to recess the senate during campaign season, but I figure folks are on to that and the Dems will substitute some heavy hitters like Obama and Biden for them on the campaign trail.

I don't think Pence will pardon Trump, even if he promises him he will (one of the best bald face liars I've ever seen), no honor among thieves or traitors either. Donald can't pardon himself, he will try a secret pardon for himself and wave it around, but I figure they expect that and will deal with it accordingly.

Mueller has lots of time to charge the principals and even though Trump can pardon for past crimes, it's hard to know which ones to pardon if they haven't been charged yet and then there's the russians, who might have to be pardoned too, if the family is to be pardoned... If they haven't been charged federally they can be indicted by NY state, so can Donald come to think of it. Mueller has other ways to "smoke Donald out", what's interesting is Jeff Sessions role in all this, he's acting uncharacteristically like a good citizen in this area of his portfolio, a savage heathen in all others. He's cock blocking Donald for a reason and it's clearly driving Donald nuts, he must have a secret deal or at least a hope of getting off on perjury. Donald appears to be boxed in and they must be driving him like a steer down the shoot to his execution, if not end the investigation now, there are lots of ways of doing it. Something's keeping this process going and Donald squirming and screaming, somebody must figure on some breaking news to resolve this.

Mueller is squeezing Maniforts nuts to the cracking point and I wonder how Paulie is gonna like prison. Depending on Donald for anything is a mistake and I don't think Mueller needs Manafort to make the case against Trump, it would be nice, since he is a direct link to russia. They probably got Manafort for so much shit that even if he cut a deal he'd still spend the rest of his life in jail.

Trump is in deep shit and the only way out is to go for a power grab and become "Fuhrer for life", Die Trumpenfuhrer!
A few folks might have something to say about that, not the GOP congress though, only Heil Trumpenfuhrer from them.

There's still a couple of weeks left until the first day of summer and the circle is closing in, with Donald a week can be a very long time.
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Constitutional crisis coming soon. This won't end well no matter how it ends. The Republicans have fully sold their souls and we will not be free of this for a long time.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Unclebaldrick said:
Constitutional crisis coming soon. This won't end well no matter how it ends. The Republicans have fully sold their souls and we will not be free of this for a long time.
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Yep, it's gonna be messy until they work up the guts to put the beast down, we are waaaaay past due on doing Donald. Goes to show ya what an awful state the country is in and how many morons are on the loose.

Hope comes from the bellwether state of California and the extinction of the GOP, or more likely a splitting of the right into two parties. It happened here in Canada after a disastrous Progressive Conservative (an oxymoron for sure) government left them with only one seat in parliament, they split into the PC party and the reform party. When they split they were excluded from power for a decade and only when they united into the conservative party (dropped the progressive) did they regain power for another decade of fuckups under Steven Harper. If the republicans lose a landslide and accelerate their descent into madness after the midterms, the conservative money might just form another conservative party and gradually take back the GOP over time. The only way the leadership and donor class can reclaim ownership of the republican party is to get rid of Donald, as in prison for life with no Twitter.
 
Unclebaldrick

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
Yep, it's gonna be messy until they work up the guts to put the beast down, we are waaaaay past due on doing Donald. Goes to show ya what an awful state the country is in and how many morons are on the loose.

Hope comes from the bellwether state of California and the extinction of the GOP, or more likely a splitting of the right into two parties. It happened here in Canada after a disastrous Progressive Conservative (an oxymoron for sure) government left them with only one seat in parliament, they split into the PC party and the reform party. When they split they were excluded from power for a decade and only when they united into the conservative party (dropped the progressive) did they regain power for another decade of fuckups under Steven Harper. If the republicans lose a landslide and accelerate their descent into madness after the midterms, the conservative money might just form another conservative party and gradually take back the GOP over time. The only way the leadership and donor class can reclaim ownership of the republican party is to get rid of Donald, as in prison for life with no Twitter.
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Once you worship at the altar of dumbness, there is no way back.
 
topcat

topcat

Well-Known Member
captainmorgan said:
Go granny go, a 94 year old woman in Elgin Ill. is fighting town officials to keep her Impeach trump sign in her yard lol.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/390929-illinois-woman-fighting-to-keep-impeach-president-trump-now
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I remember the "America, love it, or leave it" stickers in '68. Really? In order to live in this country, I must obey? That's not freedom. That city council is in for a whole lot of unwanted scrutiny and ridicule, not to mention law suits.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
greg nr said:
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Why it's King Shit himself! I got em figured for a drama queen. There are a lot of idiots in America, but not enough to crown Donald king, the longer he stays the deeper the reforms that will be put into place. If the democrats don't merely win, but sweep the board, he might be gone before the change of power, as a lot of pissed off lame duck GOP congressmen with nothing to lose blame Trump for their sudden unemployment.

If Trump is still around in November it's gonna be hard on the GOP, how bad does their governance have to be? How far from conservative values and constitutional norms does Trump have to go? How much obvious election cheating and outright treason is enough? Obama would have been lynched, much less impeached if he did what Trump does in a week. Racism/tribalism, fear, hate and greed make average people stupid and those already idiots, more so. I wonder how many of his supporters would invest their life savings with Trump or work as a contractor for one of his businesses?

If Mueller waits until after the midterms to issue the first finding, it will be a dandy! If he's fired before then he will be called to testify and will present the findings then. I have a feeling the senate judiciary committee might be eager to hear from Mueller and the GOP is secretly ready for what he has to say or some action by Trump to set the ball rolling.

I'll bet a lot of GOP members already know of their death sentence from the internal polling in their districts...
 
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