Inside the Mind of Climate Denial

Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
growingforfun said:
Thank you :)
Theres plenty of amazing dems out there who are much younger. Hillery is currently 70. Hardly a young new face full of passion ready to change the world and in touch with the needs of a changing world.

I know that tulsi gabbard could easily beat trump in 2020, she would literally be his kryptonite. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsi_Gabbard
When selecting her for my choice of dem president I had a few criteria, right now we are looking for a younger, female, not white progressive person who can get some votes from both sides of the aisle. She has military and police experiance and has done a good job in Hawaii.

Imo she checks all the boxes of what the country seems to want/need for its next leader. I'm confident she would obliterate trump and that people would love her. I'm sure theres problems with her just like anyone, but I'd love to see her get a shot.
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So, yeah, Tulsi Gabbard.

Plenty of what she say to agree with. I'm going to keep my mind open on which candidate I will vote for until after the debates. Just saying that the negative comments I'm about to make aren't the entirety of my opinion but I do find some of her statements and actions troubling.

First, she's an Assad apologist. She's buying in to the fake story that somehow the Sarin attacks on civilians were not due to air attacks from Assad. Instead, she endorsing the idea that the Sarin attacks were from rebels in a ground attack.

Second, she has an inconsistent record on LGBTQ rights. Most troublesome is her sponsoring a bill to amend the constitution to make marriage legal only between a man and a woman.

Third, she is anti-abortion.

She's also made some other troubling statements that make me think she's not all that much of a dove.

So, here is a person who buys in to fake conspiracies and is basically a religious bigot.

She's walked back on some of her LGBTQ and anti abortion stances, which were most apparent when she was 23, Maybe she's maturing an learning. But still, the fake conspiracy theory about rebels faking an air attack from the ground is impossible to overlook as a sign of intellectual weakness.

Just saying, she's OK in many progressive policies but not so good when it comes to intellectual ability to separate religion and she is as weak as tty when it comes to inability to understand direct evidence, at least when it comes to Assad.

I want better than that.

Still, I like what she said here: The (not so) New Neocons
 
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growingforfun

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
So, yeah, Tulsi Gabbard.

Plenty of what she say to agree with. I'm going to keep my mind open on which candidate I will vote for until after the debates. Just saying that the negative comments I'm about to make aren't the entirety of my opinion but I do find some of her statements and actions troubling.

First, she's an Assad apologist. She's buying in to the fake story that somehow the Sarin attacks on civilians were not due to air attacks from Assad. Instead, she endorsing the idea that the Sarin attacks were from rebels in a ground attack.

Second, she has an inconsistent record on LGBTQ rights. Most troublesome is her sponsoring a bill to amend the constitution to make marriage legal only between a man and a woman.

Third, she is anti-abortion.

She's also made some other troubling statements that make me think she's not all that much of a dove.

So, here is a person who buys in to fake conspiracies and is basically a religious bigot.

She's walked back on some of her LGBTQ and anti abortion stances, which were most apparent when she was 23, Maybe she's maturing an learning. But still, the fake conspiracy theory about rebels faking an air attack from the ground is impossible to overlook as a sign of intellectual weakness.

Just saying, she's OK in many progressive policies but not so good when it comes to intellectual ability to separate religion and she is as weak as tty when it comes to inability to understand direct evidence, at least when it comes to Assad.

I want better than that.

Still, I like what she said here: The (not so) New Neocons
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The things you dont like about her is what will get the Republican votes needed to get her in office. Remember it takes votes from both sides of the aisle to get the job.

Most of your complaints arnt even about her current positions, there about the past, things 10-15+ years ago! If anything this shows she will change her stance for the better when presented with good reason to do so (a good thing) the last thing you want is someone who wont let go of a bad position.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
growingforfun said:
The things you dont like about her is what will get the Republican votes needed to get her in office. Remember it takes votes from both sides of the aisle to get the job.

Most of your complaints arnt even about her current positions, there about the past, things 10-15+ years ago! If anything this shows she will change her stance for the better when presented with good reason to do so (a good thing) the last thing you want is someone who wont let go of a bad position.
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No doubt, in the general election, I'm going to vote for the Democrat who wins the primaries. In the primary, I always vote for the candidate who best fits my values and beliefs insofar as I know them at the time. I voted for Bernie in 2016 but doubt I will in 2020 for many reasons including his age.

As far as negotiating away civil rights in order to get Republican votes, well, Bernie Sanders already demonstrated that pandering to the racist white vote isn't going to help win the Democratic Party nomination. Republicans do that. Democrats are a coalition that includes many colors, beliefs and orientations. Our leader should represent that.

Backing a fake conspiracy theory in order to get votes? Is that what you want in a candidate? Haven't we had enough of the current president who uses fake conspiracy theories for political advantage? Tulsi cited the fake conspiracy theory about the Syrian Sarin gas attack last year, so, no, she is either using it or has fallen for it. I'm not saying I won't vote for her. I'm saying I don't like that in a politician. I like people who stick to facts, science and speak the truth when making policy.
 
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growingforfun

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
No doubt, in the general election, I'm going to vote for the Democrat who wins the primaries. In the primary, I always vote for the candidate who best fits my values and beliefs insofar as I know them at the time. I voted for Bernie in 2016 but doubt I will in 2020 for many reasons including his age.

As far as negotiating away civil rights for the office of the Presidency in order to get Republican votes, well, Bernie Sanders already demonstrated that pandering to the white vote isn't going to help win the Democratic Party nomination. Republican do that. Democrats are a coalition that includes many colors, beliefs and orientations. Our leader should represent that.

Backing a fake conspiracy theory in order to get votes? Is that what you want in a candidate? Haven't we had enough of the current president who uses fake conspiracy theories for political advantage? Tulsi cited the fake conspiracy theory about the Syrian Sarin gas attack last year, so, no, she is either using it or has fallen for it. I'm not saying I won't vote for her. I'm saying I don't like that in a politician. I like people who stick to facts, science and speak the truth when making policy.
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You sound like anything you disagree with is automatically so wrong it's disgusting. That's the kind of thing that's going the haunt you as you get older and your position on topics changes.
Are you 18-22?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
growingforfun said:
You sound like anything you disagree with is automatically so wrong it's disgusting. That's the kind of thing that's going the haunt you as you get older and your position on topics changes.
Are you 18-22?
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If you want to complain that I'm confident that my conclusions are based upon facts, then suggest you do so in private.

I gave you an answer and I gave you my reasons for them. If you see errors I'm glad to have them pointed out. Too bad you don't like my conclusions. If you want to factually point out my errors, or mistakes in the facts that I cited, I'll be glad to read your rebuttal and discuss them with you.

Suggest you read my earlier post more carefully, fact check and get back with me where you disagree. Your whine in this post is childish.
 
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growingforfun

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
If you want to complain that I'm confident that my conclusions are based upon facts, then suggest you do so in private.

I gave you an answer and I gave you my reasons for them. If you see errors I'm glad to have them pointed out. Too bad you don't like my conclusions. If you want to factually point out my errors, or mistakes in the facts that I cited, I'll be glad to read your rebuttal and discuss them with you.

Suggest you read my earlier post more carefully, fact check and get back with me where you disagree. Your whine in this post is childish.
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Sounds like I'm right on the mark or pretty close to it.
So since your in that 18-22 range you'll forgive me if I take you as serious as someone on their first grow giving out grow advice.
Enjoy the political process and learning about life in general. Thinking you know everything being fearful/hateful of opposing ideas is a clear sign about where you are in your life.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
growingforfun said:
Sounds like I'm right on the mark or pretty close to it.
So since your in that 18-22 range you'll forgive me if I take you as serious as someone on their first grow giving out grow advice.
Enjoy the political process and learning about life in general. Thinking you know everything being fearful/hateful of opposing ideas is a clear sign about where you are in your life.
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I thought we were talking about Gabbard. Your post is pretty much just about me. I totally agree that I'd make a terrible politician if that's your point.

Do you have good reasons why I should support Gabbard? How about knocking down my reasons for why I'm not so certain about her? I said I haven't made up my mind. Is this your idea of how to campaign for her?
 
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growingforfun

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I thought we were talking about Gabbard. Your post is pretty much just about me. I totally agree that I'd make a terrible politician if that's your point.

Do you have good reasons why I should support Gabbard? How about knocking down my reasons for why I'm not so certain about her? I said I haven't made up my mind. Is this your idea of how to campaign for her?
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Your 2 main points I already addressed but I guess I'll do it again...
First you said weak on LGBT rights, and I responded saying that changed and it's a sign of a good person to modify their views when presented with good evidence.
Additionally I'd like to point out that when she says that, according to the wiki, she is quoted as saying that hawaiians have made their views on this issue clear that they do not want same sex marriage. That sounds like less of a personal opinion and more of accepting what the people want to me.
And to your second point, "the gas attack conspiracy" I also responded, but I can respond again... you seem fearful of opposing ideas. I personally have no clue what opinion is correct, however someone who's a combat veteran and has political experiance probably has a better source of information relevant to the area than I do.

I also pointed out that to become president votes from both sides of the aisle are needed. We have resent proof of this in trump vs Clinton, and we also got proof of it when obama ran vs Romney or who ever the fuck Republicans put up (I cant even remember honestly every Republican was TRASH) obama got the votes from both side is the aisle just like trump did this time.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
growingforfun said:
The things you dont like about her is what will get the Republican votes needed to get her in office. Remember it takes votes from both sides of the aisle to get the job.

Most of your complaints arnt even about her current positions, there about the past, things 10-15+ years ago! If anything this shows she will change her stance for the better when presented with good reason to do so (a good thing) the last thing you want is someone who wont let go of a bad position.
Click to expand...
growingforfun said:
Sounds like I'm right on the mark or pretty close to it.
So since your in that 18-22 range you'll forgive me if I take you as serious as someone on their first grow giving out grow advice.
Enjoy the political process and learning about life in general. Thinking you know everything being fearful/hateful of opposing ideas is a clear sign about where you are in your life.
Click to expand...
growingforfun said:
Your 2 main points I already addressed but I guess I'll do it again...
First you said weak on LGBT rights, and I responded saying that changed and it's a sign of a good person to modify their views when presented with good evidence.
Additionally I'd like to point out that when she says that, according to the wiki, she is quoted as saying that hawaiians have made their views on this issue clear that they do not want same sex marriage. That sounds like less of a personal opinion and more of accepting what the people want to me.
And to your second point, "the gas attack conspiracy" I also responded, but I can respond again... you seem fearful of opposing ideas. I personally have no clue what opinion is correct, however someone who's a combat veteran and has political experiance probably has a better source of information relevant to the area than I do.

I also pointed out that to become president votes from both sides of the aisle are needed. We have resent proof of this in trump vs Clinton, and we also got proof of it when obama ran vs Romney or who ever the fuck Republicans put up (I cant even remember honestly every Republican was TRASH) obama got the votes from both side is the aisle just like trump did this time.
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So I attached your three replies. Could you please point out to me where you addressed her opposition to abortion rights in the first two posts?

Also, could you please point out to me where you said anything about LGBTQ rights? Other than excusing her position because it was a long time ago and she was much younger? I made the same point in my first post to you.

Just cut and past in bold print the lines you think substantiate your claim that you made your point earlier because I don't think you did.

I do agree that people can change and perhaps Gabbard has changed her views to support all civil rights, not just the ones that are politically convenient. However, once a person comes out against LGBTQ rights and women's reproductive rights, it's a red flag and I'm going to pay more attention to what she says and does in these areas.

I'll close by saying that civil rights are rights and not something that can be bargained away. Your statement "Hawaiians have made their views on this issue clear that they do not want same sex marriage." seems to be saying that we can whore away civil rights if we want to. I realize that Republicans -- basically old white men -- think so. We can't bargain away free speech. We can't bargain away the 14th amendment and let slavery back into the country. Likewise, we can't bargain away LGBTQ and women's right to choose.

Regarding your claim that the people of Hawaii oppose same sex marriage, I found this: A 2017 Public Religion Research Institute poll found that 68% of Hawaii residents supported same-sex marriage, while 20% were opposed and 12% were unsure.[3] Additionally, 74% supported the anti-discrimination law covering sexual orientation and gender identity. 13% were opposed. (wikipedia) <<link attached

So, I'd like a to see a link from you to an article that supports your claim that "the people of the state of Hawaii" oppose same sex marriage. I saw something from a Mormon rag but that just covered churches (duh), and wasn't a reflection of what even a majority of the people in the state of Hawaii.
 
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growingforfun

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
So I attached your three replies. Could you please point out to me where you addressed her opposition to abortion rights in the first two posts?

Also, could you please point out to me where you said anything about LGBTQ rights? Other than excusing her position because it was a long time ago and she was much younger? I made the same point in my first post to you.

Just cut and past in bold print the lines you think substantiate your claim that you made your point earlier because I don't think you did.

I do agree that people can change and perhaps Gabbard has changed her views to support all civil rights, not just the ones that are politically convenient. However, once a person comes out against LGBTQ rights and women's reproductive rights, it's a red flag and I'm going to pay more attention to what she says and does in these areas.

I'll close by saying that civil rights are rights and not something that can be bargained away. Your statement "Hawaiians have made their views on this issue clear that they do not want same sex marriage." seems to be saying that we can whore away civil rights if we want to. I realize that Republicans -- basically old white men -- think so. We can't bargain away free speech. We can't bargain away the 14th amendment and let slavery back into the country. Likewise, we can't bargain away LGBTQ and women's right to choose.

Regarding your claim that the people of Hawaii oppose same sex marriage, I found this: A 2017 Public Religion Research Institute poll found that 68% of Hawaii residents supported same-sex marriage, while 20% were opposed and 12% were unsure.[3] Additionally, 74% supported the anti-discrimination law covering sexual orientation and gender identity. 13% were opposed. (wikipedia) <<link attached

So, I'd like a to see a link from you to an article that supports your claim that "the people of the state of Hawaii" oppose same sex marriage. I saw something from a Mormon rag but that just covered churches (duh), and wasn't a reflection of what even a majority of the people in the state of Hawaii.
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So your linking a current opinion on same sex marriage, to a topic that's like 15 years old, talk about hand picking your facts.
Talking with you seems pointless... I readressed your 2 main points, I guess I missed a 3rd point you got in there, and I actually addressed ALL POINTS when I said it takes votes from both sides of the aisle to get in office.


Enjoy getting trump for another 4 years if you cant find a little middle ground in 2020.

Honestly your cutting off your foot for a sore toe.

This is why it's clear to me your very young/new to this.
 
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growingforfun

Well-Known Member
And as I also keep saying, show me someone with more winning power vs trump.
Isnt that what is most important?

Yes we can all dream about ideals but someday you may learn life isnt all cupcakes and tea parties.

Show me someone from the dem side who wont lose to trump in 2020, I'll wait.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
growingforfun said:
And as I also keep saying, show me someone with more winning power vs trump.
Isnt that what is most important?

Yes we can all dream about ideals but someday you may learn life isnt all cupcakes and tea parties.

Show me someone from the dem side who wont lose to trump in 2020, I'll wait.
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Are you telling me that core Democratic values -- right to unionize, strong unions, universal healthcare, Women's rights including reproductive choice, support for everybody's civil rights and not just straight white people, a clean environment, good education for everybody, a competitive economy, expanding good paying jobs, a rational immigration policy, and many others aren't American values and can't win?

If the Democratic party has to become Republican to win then I'll find a third party if that's what they choose to do.

We are two and a half years away from the election. There is a field of 15 potential candidates already. I'm not going to pick anybody right now. If you want me to point to somebody who I think is probably better than Gabbard, I'll say Tammy Duckworth but there are others.
 
doublejj

doublejj

Well-Known Member
growingforfun said:
And as I also keep saying, show me someone with more winning power vs trump.
Isnt that what is most important?

Yes we can all dream about ideals but someday you may learn life isnt all cupcakes and tea parties.

Show me someone from the dem side who wont lose to trump in 2020, I'll wait.
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The russians are pretty good at this. Trump and the republicans are compromised, they are traitors. Our nation is under siege by a foreign power.
 
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growingforfun

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Are you telling me that core Democratic values -- right to unionize, strong unions, universal healthcare, Women's rights including reproductive choice, support for everybody's civil rights and not just straight white people, a clean environment, good education for everybody, a competitive economy, expanding good paying jobs, a rational immigration policy, and many others aren't American values and can't win?

.
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I'm clearly not saying that and never said that. But it's going to talk more than just another senior citizen with the same old low energy rhetoric to beat a president going for re-election.
 
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growingforfun

Well-Known Member
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammy_Duckworth

Thanks for attempting to continue the conversation by presenting a candidate.

She seems like a good person an her history helps her but shes not going to have what it takes to win in 2020.

Good try though, shes just way too hardline dem to get the Republican votes, and she kinda looks like low hanging fruit for a lot of jokes we all know would get made.
 
Justin-case

Justin-case

Well-Known Member
growingforfun said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammy_Duckworth

Thanks for attempting to continue the conversation by presenting a candidate.

She seems like a good person an her history helps her but shes not going to have what it takes to win in 2020.

Good try though, shes just way too hardline dem to get the Republican votes, and she kinda looks like low hanging fruit for a lot of jokes we all know would get made.
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Nobody expected Bernie to win either.
 
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