Jacks (JR Peters) nutrients

[im4satori]

In that particular video, he mixed the Epsom in with Part A, not the Cal Nit. As far as sourcing info, I try to source it from everywhere. Scientifically backed information is great, but it doesn't always exist in the preferred format, so some outsourcing is needed. Like for instance, the information I gleaned from you was in the form of one guy on the interwebs talking to another. I have no way of knowing if the things you shared with me are backed up scientifically as you haven't linked me to your source. So I continue researching the topic, and will continue to do so in search of information that aligns with what you shared, or info that contradicts with what you shared. So far, your info is checking out, but the proving process never ends.

Generally speaking, correct information will be in agreement, irregardless of the sources and so far your info regarding mixing dry nutes has checked out. Speaking of which, I found another recipe to use as a reference, similar to that of Hoagland's. I still primarily use the values you shared, but this new recipe helps me to paint a fuller picture.



This too;View attachment 4208976

well theres an assumption here that part A is the stock tank that contains the calcium , otherwise why ask the question

book;

hydroponics
a practical guide for the soiless grower

by
J Benton Jones Junior

 

[Skybound420]

So I made my desired concentrate, but when mixing 378.54 grams of Jack's Pro, and used a 160gph pump to circulate the water while I slowly add in the mix, it still coagulated into these chunks of solids. Has anyone experienced this when making concentrates? I'll definitely invest is a paint mixer, but will more of these solids dissolve?



Edit - I dumped a little out of the jug to make space, and then some more back into the bucket. I put on some gloves and kneaded the clumps down to powder with my thumb and with swirling, I was able to reclaim it all back into the solution. I just need to invest in better agitation.

 

[gfpeezy]

. Has anyone experienced this when making concentrates?

i mixed my Peters 5 11 26 at 300 grams to 1500ml and though it didn't clump, there was some undissolved powder at the bottom of the jug. after adding 166ml to make it 0.18g per ml, i poured it into a bucket to stir more vigorously with a mixer which helped it dissolve a little better. probably a combination of the increased water and more liberal agitation helped.

the next day there still seemed to be some powder at the bottom of the jug but it did disappear after shaking a bit.

i am only mixing about 1 months worth of concentrate, it doesn't seem ideal to keep it in stagnant filtered water for too long, though it seems regular retail nutrient liquids have a long shelf life.

 

[im4satori]

I don't use the jacks, I use each element on its own instead of starting with the jacks mix (the jacks is less to weigh)
so I cant speak directly to your product


I usually start in warm or hot water (only as hot as the tap supplies)
I dump ot in and mix
I let it sit over night and mix again
if it sits a while I do stir it or shake the bottle between uses
my salts fully dissolve but not always unitl they sit over night

some of the micro nutes take time to full mix, especially the solubor

 

[Skybound420]

Which brand micro mix do you use? I'll stick with Jack's till I get a better understanding of it all, but I'm also interested in building everything from scratch, or even to put a little more in Jack's as the lot of my charts struggle to maintain a decent level of Fe in the end mix.

Edit - I can't help but notice in Hoagland's and Steiner's both use slightly more Fe, but a lot more B, and the Jack's results seem to keep those two micro in a much lesser range.

Hoagland's Bloom Solution .....|Steiner's formula is here: |
N 210 ppm .................................| N 170 ppm |
P 31 ppm ...................................| P 50 ppm |
K 235 ppm ................................ | K 320 ppm |
Ca 200 ppm .............................. | Ca 183 ppm |
Mg 48 ppm ............................... | Mg 50 ppm |
S 64 ppm ..................................| S 148 ppm |
B 0.5 ppm .................................| B 1 to 2 ppm |
Fe 1 to 5 ppm ...........................| Fe 3 to 4 ppm |
Mn 0.5 ppm ..............................| Mn 1 to 2 ppm |
Zn 0.05 ppm .............................| Zn 0.2 ppm |
Cu 0.02 ppm ............................| Cu 0.1 to 0.5 ppm |
Mo 0.01 ppm ............................| Mo 0.1 ppm

 

[im4satori]

Which brand micro mix do you use? I'll stick with Jack's till I get a better understanding of it all, but I'm also interested in building everything from scratch, or even to put a little more in Jack's as the lot of my charts struggle to maintain a decent level of Fe in the end mix.

Edit - I can't help but notice in Hoagland's and Steiner's both use slightly more Fe, but a lot more B, and the Jack's results seem to keep those two micro in a much lesser range.

Hoagland's Bloom Solution .....|Steiner's formula is here: |
N 210 ppm .................................| N 170 ppm |
P 31 ppm ...................................| P 50 ppm |
K 235 ppm ................................ | K 320 ppm |
Ca 200 ppm .............................. | Ca 183 ppm |
Mg 48 ppm ............................... | Mg 50 ppm |
S 64 ppm ..................................| S 148 ppm |
B 0.5 ppm .................................| B 1 to 2 ppm |
Fe 1 to 5 ppm ...........................| Fe 3 to 4 ppm |
Mn 0.5 ppm ..............................| Mn 1 to 2 ppm |
Zn 0.05 ppm .............................| Zn 0.2 ppm |
Cu 0.02 ppm ............................| Cu 0.1 to 0.5 ppm |
Mo 0.01 ppm ............................| Mo 0.1 ppm

Those numbers are from testing vegetables, which have significantly higher nutrient demands than weed

MJ will manage to live in the wild because it has low requirements, when was the last time you seen a wild tomato plant lol


youll not want your iron to go over 2.5ppm or itll begin to affect its relationship to other elements ( like phosphorus, zinc and manganese )

remember when I talked about the ratio of elements K;Ca:Mg being somewhere between 4:2:1 or 3:2:1 ratio
and the reason

each element has a direct effect on the other elements in almost every case

this explains lockout

what that means is that elements are far enough out of balance to impede uptake of one or more other elements

just like calcium and opotassium and magnesium compete with each other for uptake,

iron , zinc, phosphorus and mganese also do the same if one of them is to high itll block the others uptake

just about every element has another element itll compete with

N, K, Chl will effect each others uptake

its been too llong since ive read this material to speak on it and sound intelligent or get all the details correct but if you do some research on cation + or -

that word is actual cat-ion and it refers to the relationship between the elements and there availability

for me its been 15 years since I studied the actual text so im not going to do well with a informative explanation other than to point you in the right direction

 

[im4satori]

sorry for the double spacing, its a habit I have from message boards where people commonly have health issues and the double spacing makes it easier for those with bad eyes or comprehension issues

 

[Skybound420]

I think I get what you're saying, generally at least. I presume you're speaking about Mulder's Chart and how each element reacts with like 3 others whereby too much of A will hinder uptake of b, c, & d, and I presume the same would apply if deficient. I would not deviate from the range numbers you gave me, but I notice when compiling recipes, Iron especially suffers in error relative to my target and I would either need to hard code Jack's weight, or add something else so as to bring up the iron to the desired range. Of course I know the rest of the micro would also be increased evenly while I'm chasing my Iron target, and more research would definitely be required of me. I'm just collecting info now and adopting what I can, as I can.

 

[im4satori]

I think I get what you're saying, generally at least. I presume you're speaking about Mulder's Chart and how each element reacts with like 3 others whereby too much of A will hinder uptake of b, c, & d, and I presume the same would apply if deficient. I would not deviate from the range numbers you gave me, but I notice when compiling recipes, Iron especially suffers in error relative to my target and I would either need to hard code Jack's weight, or add something else so as to bring up the iron to the desired range. Of course I know the rest of the micro would also be increased evenly while I'm chasing my Iron target, and more research would definitely be required of me. I'm just collecting info now and adopting what I can, as I can.

View attachment 4211113

I use peters micro nute mix aka s.t.e.m. if I need a quick blended micro mix and it works great for foliar sprays if your into that

for iron alone youll want iron dtpa...dry powder

you can get both from custom hydro

if you need to mix it in smaller batches you may need to get the ag iron liquid supplement, I believe its 5% Fe and you can get it on ebay for a couple bucks

 

[Skybound420]

What are your thoughts on Boron levels in Jack's Pro? Would you say they're fine, a bit much, slightly lacking? IDK if B has noticeable stress queues in the leaves/stems, but ya know, the search for more information ... My bloom feed for reference.

 

[swedsteven]

Why did u stop using jack321 recipe look good on papper.

I am use to more phosphor in my organic soil mix .
I will do a side by side next grow jack321 in old promix with dolomite lime for ph buffer . Vs my organic grow water only soil.

 

[Ryante55]

What are your thoughts on Boron levels in Jack's Pro? Would you say they're fine, a bit much, slightly lacking? IDK if B has noticeable stress queues in the leaves/stems, but ya know, the search for more information ... My bloom feed for reference.

View attachment 4211493

Does it really help to add all that stuff? I've always felt the 321 works great maybe a couple feeding of recharge if i see signs of a deffeciency.

 

[im4satori]

Does it really help to add all that stuff? I've always felt the 321 works great maybe a couple feeding of recharge if i see signs of a deffeciency.

in most cases the jacks 321 is fine

I personally like having the ability to make minor individual adjustments, but its not "necessary" in most cases

in my opinion id be fine with jacks 321 (cut to reduce EC) for any grow style except maybe coco id prefer to see a higher calcium to K ratio

another reason I don't use jacks is because I feel I get better solubility using the individual reagents vs using the blends and since I use dosatron injection its the best option for me but certainly there are much easier ways to go

if your looking for super easy and a good ratio you could simply use GH maxi grow and maxi bloom 50/50 and its very close to the same as jacks 321 and the 50/50 mix is perfectly balanced

 

[im4satori]

What are your thoughts on Boron levels in Jack's Pro? Would you say they're fine, a bit much, slightly lacking? IDK if B has noticeable stress queues in the leaves/stems, but ya know, the search for more information ... My bloom feed for reference.

View attachment 4211493

ive not really done any experimenting with boron ... I ve messed around with Mn and zinc a little but didn't really like what I found so I leave it alone

some of the micro nutes have a wide range of acceptable ppm and others are more particular depending on there positive or negative cat-ion exchange or how they relate to each other

so I cant really say

my exact levels of micro nutes are based off reviewing several brands along side the recommended amounts in the Hoagland/steiner/aronon/lucas literature

ive been mixing it the same way so long I don't recall exactly what or where I got the numbers I finished at.... but whatever it is im happy with it

I recall reviewing
advanced
general hydro
peters stem
jacks
5-11-26 hydro special
hydro buddy recommendations
and the book I referenced earlier

 

[Skybound420]

Why did u stop using jack321 recipe look good on papper.

I am use to more phosphor in my organic soil mix .
I will do a side by side next grow jack321 in old promix with dolomite lime for ph buffer . Vs my organic grow water only soil.

When I looked at the 321 blend all mixed, and compared them to the values satori shared, I saw that the balances looked not right. Also, knowing the GreenGene uses 321, I noticed his plants didn't look ideal. They still looked good, but I've been growing good with GH 3 part, and I always had Ca defs, P def, K def to a lesser degree, I saw copper Def that may have been Ca related etc, and I got some alright yields, but I just felt like I'd want to graduate into a more balanced regimen if I could. So after I got the 4 main components, I quickly switched to 2.6 Jacks and 1.6 CalNit 0-.75 Epsom and that gave a slight closer result, but still there were some things either too high or too low. I ordered a calcium product that I later learned had a lot of sodium mixed in, so I never even used and I got yet another Calcium product and also Mag Nit. The calcium powder I use is basically still CalNit, just a different composition and chelated with amino acids. All through that growing/buying process, I learned how to use Hydro Buddy to where I can tell it these are the nutes I'm using, set all the weights to zero, then set my desired target ppm for all of the macros and secondaries, and HydroBuddy figures out how much of each of my listed components I need to add to get to the result I seek which makes it so much easier. So now I have a near perfect balance of elements for every stage of growth and only 6 components to build it all.

1) Jack's Pro 5-12-26
2) Cal Nit (I use Jack's brand)
3) Epsom Salt
4) MKP
5) Mag Nit
6) Biomin Calcium Powder (5% N, 15% Ca)

I intend to tweak things to get more Sulfur into the mix and I'd also likely get some extra iron to add to the Jack's Pro

Here is Jack's 321 results and the values Satori shared with me some pages back. I use them as a benchmark and I will challenge them with experimentation, but they give me a great starting point.

 

[im4satori]

When I looked at the 321 blend all mixed, and compared them to the values satori shared, I saw that the balances looked not right. Also, knowing the GreenGene uses 321, I noticed his plants didn't look ideal. They still looked good, but I've been growing good with GH 3 part, and I always had Ca defs, P def, K def to a lesser degree, I saw copper Def that may have been Ca related etc, and I got some alright yields, but I just felt like I'd want to graduate into a more balanced regimen if I could. So after I got the 4 main components, I quickly switched to 2.6 Jacks and 1.6 CalNit 0-.75 Epsom and that gave a slight closer result, but still there were some things either too high or too low. I ordered a calcium product that I later learned had a lot of sodium mixed in, so I never even used and I got yet another Calcium product and also Mag Nit. The calcium powder I use is basically still CalNit, just a different composition and chelated with amino acids. All through that growing/buying process, I learned how to use Hydro Buddy to where I can tell it these are the nutes I'm using, set all the weights to zero, then set my desired target ppm for all of the macros and secondaries, and HydroBuddy figures out how much of each of my listed components I need to add to get to the result I seek which makes it so much easier. So now I have a near perfect balance of elements for every stage of growth and only 6 components to build it all.

1) Jack's Pro 5-12-26
2) Cal Nit (I use Jack's brand)
3) Epsom Salt
4) MKP
5) Mag Nit
6) Biomin Calcium Powder (5% N, 15% Ca)

I intend to tweak things to get more Sulfur into the mix and I'd also likely get some extra iron to add to the Jack's Pro

Here is Jack's 321 results and the values Satori shared with me some pages back. I use them as a benchmark and I will challenge them with experimentation, but they give me a great starting point.

View attachment 4211588
View attachment 4211581

I just want to point out and I do so for your benefit

if your using the GH 3 part and following the mixing instructions
theres no reason youd ever see P def and if your ph is correct theres no reason youd ever see copper def

I don't point this out to be smart, im just informing you constructively
id suggest you run your old GH 3 part mix thru hydro buddy and see what numbers you where feeding for comparison

calcium def, magnesium and maybe a little iron def yes you will get both of those if your not adding in calmag and Epsom

I just want to point out also, those numbers are my preference... theres nothing wrong with jacks 321 as it relates to ratios (because I do feel its a little hot as is)
the jacks has a N:K ratio of 2:3 which is perfectly acceptable and the portion of calcium and magnesium and how they relate to the K are in range to be considered balanced (except in the case of coco imo id like lower K in coco but itll still work)

 

[swedsteven]

I will go for 600 ppm not to hot + tap water 130 ppm in .

The only thing that i will had to jack321 is the dolomite lime and some volcanic rock dust in the soil and couple compost tea .maybe some silica left over protek just little.

Never i ph my water if the medium is at 7 and u feed 5.5 it will reach 7 after 1 min so there no point to ph water only in hydro and coco .

 

[im4satori]

I will go for 600 ppm not to hot + tap water 130 ppm in .
The only thing that i will had to jack321 is the dolomite lime and some volcanic rock dust in the soil and couple compost tea .maybe some silica left over protek just little.
Never i ph my water if the medium is at 7 and u feed 5.5 it will reach 7 after 1 min so there no point to ph water only in hydro and coco .

all true

watch out on the dolomite, if your building fresh soil you need to add lime to buffer the low ph of the peat and the lime adds calcium....
if the soil ph is already in range and you add lime you could end up with your ph too high

so when I re-amand an organic soil that already has the proper ph range I will use gypsum to add calcium and not use lime as I don't want the repeated lime additions to push my ph up too high

if your not organic you really don't need to add either lime or gypsum if your getting your calcium from fertilizer (salt) and the ph is already in range

 

[Skybound420]

I'm still yet to learn how to use liquids in Hydro Buddy. I need to get a 100ml syringe so I can weigh it with 100 of something to figure out the density, and I assume I'll be able to figure it out beyond that point, but still need to get the syringe.

As to GH, well, I do have to admit that the method I was using, I was cheating my NPK a lot, but didn't know how to (or was too lazy to learn) get it all evened out, and diluted. To be more clear, my mentor, along with my own experience lead me to the practice of not exceeding 600 tds in veg and 900 tds in bloom. Knowing that, I would add in supplements full strength and test tds. I would then calculate the dose of the 3 part that would fill that remaining space, usually about 250-300 tds. I would still adhere to the ratio, but it was always diluted relative to the other components. The GH schedule is based off 2.5ml/Gal, and increment up from that base value, so I would just reduce those to the lest common denominator and every 2.5ml of 3 part would be counted as 1, so 5ml=2 and 7.5ml=3. I'd then multiply that reduced number by number of gallons, sometimes less and generally settle very near my target TDS. FYI, I've been saying TDS, but you know I mean PPM, lol. But for the sake of communication and knowledge of your preferences.

I'll keep the GH on hand as the bottles work well for pulling dust particles out of the air (collecting dust) and I want to focus on the dries. I now have an abundantly better understanding of how nute lines are built, the exact ratios of elements and have the components to make minor adjustments if need be. With GH, I didn't have a lot of freedom as to what I can adjust. I'm sure if I learn liquids in HB I can use up what I have, but at this point, I'll just write it off as a loss, or breaking even. I might even be able to sell it to my student if he's still growing.

 

[swedsteven]

I need to add a little lime not as much i reuse my promix since 3 years and i have a tool to check my medium im around 6.8to 7.2 range all the time if it high i dont add it between grows .

Peat is stronger buffer then the liquid calcium trust me need to lime in between grow for me if not it go acid then lockout that what i was pointing by ur medium controle your ph maybe only mine because off the peat in it lol .