Jesselikes2grow
Well-Known Member
So the neem you speak of changing the colors, is that from being in the soil or from spraying a foliar at certain times? Beautiful plants btwNeem can change the color of your plants too:
Cheers,
Mo
ShLUbY's Garden
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meangreengrowinmachine
Well-Known Member
I have heard too much neem can actually introduce toxins to plants as well.. thoughts?Neem can change the color of your plants too:
Cheers,
Mo
meangreengrowinmachine
Well-Known Member
can you please give me more info on why neem is bad for use in organic soils? I never use neem oil or anything foliar but I do have it as a small portion of my soil mix atm.....
SSGrower
Well-Known Member
The mode of action of neem is not fully understood. It is generally accepted that azadirachtin is one of the compounds in the neem plant responsible for its insecticidal properties. It is concentrated in the seed, but also found in the bark and leaves. Cake or meal from cold pressed seeds will have residue, if its the result of hydrophilc extraction, its not really organic.
Azadirachtin is systemic, meaning it is mobile within the plant. It is my personal position not to use systemics.
meangreengrowinmachine
Well-Known Member
thanks for letting me know!
ShLUbY
Well-Known Member
@Mohican @meangreengrowinmachine @SSGrower @Jesselikes2grow
some reading if you guys are interested.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4599620/ - study of toxicity of neem on human lymphocytes in vitro
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5697472/ - study of effects of Neem Seed Oil (NSO) on cancer cells
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/neemgen.html - brief overview of the physical/chemical properties/side-effects.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28101834 - abstract but the conclusions are at the end of it. Neem resolves acute skin toxicity from chemo-radiation treatments.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12909265 - interesting abstract about the effects of azadiractin on sperm cells... too bad the full article is not available. Also kinda old but probably still relevant.
https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijmm/40/6/1932 - mouse model study showing quite a few benefits of neem oil on pulmonary disease.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27178630 - ethnobotanical uses of neem oil in indigenous areas.
Personally, I would like to see the studies that made them determine that neem is unsafe for organic use. Neem has been used for centuries. I'm sure we still have a lot to learn about this plant and it's applications.
However, I'm noticing the antimicrobial properties of neem oil in quite a few of these papers, and I'm curious if it's harmful to soil bacteria at certain concentrations. The good thing about neem cake, is that it contains soooooo little oil, so we could probably hypothesize that concentrations are so low they have negligible effect on soil microbes. I mean we've all been using it for so long... I think we as growers would have found negative results by now.
Neem seems to be harmful to fish, and I'm wondering if that was one of the main reasons why it was banned, they don't want it getting into the rivers/lakes/streams etc.
As of right now, in mild doses, seems to be totally fine. Now smoking it... obviously we don't know shit about that yet. Show me one piece of reputable evidence that links smoking of neem contaminated cannabis to CHS or anything else. they simply don't know what causes CHS yes (other than "chronic abuse") however once a week smoker qualifies for "chronic abuse" so what does that really say? We just don't know! However I would like to see a study that utilizes smoked or vaped flower without neem as a control and flowers with different concentration applications of neem at different points of the grow cycle using a healthy control group and a group that has confirmed CHS medical history. Now there's a research project... not sure if the human rights/health board would approve of it though haha.
some additional links:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5330965/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5851514/
The overall conclusion... there is going to be a SHIT TON of research opportunity in the cannabis industry to come in the next few decades. I'm trying to figure out what kind of research project related to cannabis I could do that is novel and unanswered for my Current Topics in Biology class for my end of the semester project.
some reading if you guys are interested.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4599620/ - study of toxicity of neem on human lymphocytes in vitro
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5697472/ - study of effects of Neem Seed Oil (NSO) on cancer cells
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/neemgen.html - brief overview of the physical/chemical properties/side-effects.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28101834 - abstract but the conclusions are at the end of it. Neem resolves acute skin toxicity from chemo-radiation treatments.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12909265 - interesting abstract about the effects of azadiractin on sperm cells... too bad the full article is not available. Also kinda old but probably still relevant.
https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijmm/40/6/1932 - mouse model study showing quite a few benefits of neem oil on pulmonary disease.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27178630 - ethnobotanical uses of neem oil in indigenous areas.
Personally, I would like to see the studies that made them determine that neem is unsafe for organic use. Neem has been used for centuries. I'm sure we still have a lot to learn about this plant and it's applications.
However, I'm noticing the antimicrobial properties of neem oil in quite a few of these papers, and I'm curious if it's harmful to soil bacteria at certain concentrations. The good thing about neem cake, is that it contains soooooo little oil, so we could probably hypothesize that concentrations are so low they have negligible effect on soil microbes. I mean we've all been using it for so long... I think we as growers would have found negative results by now.
Neem seems to be harmful to fish, and I'm wondering if that was one of the main reasons why it was banned, they don't want it getting into the rivers/lakes/streams etc.
As of right now, in mild doses, seems to be totally fine. Now smoking it... obviously we don't know shit about that yet. Show me one piece of reputable evidence that links smoking of neem contaminated cannabis to CHS or anything else. they simply don't know what causes CHS yes (other than "chronic abuse") however once a week smoker qualifies for "chronic abuse" so what does that really say? We just don't know! However I would like to see a study that utilizes smoked or vaped flower without neem as a control and flowers with different concentration applications of neem at different points of the grow cycle using a healthy control group and a group that has confirmed CHS medical history. Now there's a research project... not sure if the human rights/health board would approve of it though haha.
some additional links:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5330965/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5851514/
The overall conclusion... there is going to be a SHIT TON of research opportunity in the cannabis industry to come in the next few decades. I'm trying to figure out what kind of research project related to cannabis I could do that is novel and unanswered for my Current Topics in Biology class for my end of the semester project.
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meangreengrowinmachine
Well-Known Member
ShLUbY
Well-Known Member
no problem. it only took me about 20-30 min to uncover all of that. pubmed.com is a great site, though the articles aren't always free full text, but if you do enough digging you can usually find several that are. But abstracts can usually provide you at least some evidence as they contain a quick summary of the conclusions.
SSGrower
Well-Known Member
You better recategorize your definition of the word "SOME".
That is a metric fuck tonne of reading.
Because it has always been done that way is no reason to continue. We find new things out about stuff all the time, and I reserve the right to adjust my position on this and all that matters.
Hope school is going well. Read last paragraph, if they let you da a cannabis focused thesis in school go for it!!!
ShLUbY
Well-Known Member
hahaha you don't have to read a study in its entirety (believe me, it takes forever but you do learn a lot). just look at the conclusions and the results/discussion. all you need to glean from the study will be in those sections. then you can investigate the charts and methods if you wish, and additional topics that they mention.
and i totally agree, we find new things all the time and learn that we've been fucking up all along! but I personally don't see what all the fuss is about with neem with the evidence that is available.
and my research project is just a "proposal" it's not something that I'm actually going to do! I wish though... but honestly once i graduate, I'm going to try and apply some actual science to this industry and organic methods. I need to find the platform I'd like to post all my experiments to. I'll be keeping a "lab notebook"/ grow log for everything as well so I have physical documentation. It's going to be a ton of fun!
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ShLUbY
Well-Known Member
Alllllll the Texas Butter phenos at day 48 from Greenpoint 10pk of seeds. Seven female out of ten seeds. Well water resulted in poor performance during the first 4.5 weeks of flower. Been back on the RO for the rest and growth definitely improved. No eliminations will be made from this seed run. The first clone run will be where some phenos will be eliminated. Lots of frost all over these girls. Very wide range of phenotypes, but many are sativa dom. #9 and #1 have my favorite smells so far... but I'm interested to see how this changes once dried. #8 is extremely sativa with those long finger like buds that are coated in little tiny trichs. #7 and #3 definitely packin on the frost. #10 and #3 have the best bud structure imo. #5 most indica dom pheno.
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MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
Bugs are greedy bastards though...
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
I stopped using well water after my last harvest, it had K def. The more that I looked into it, the less Ca and Mg that I used. I also realized that I didn't have much for K inputs either.
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
I wanted to go to school for horticulture, but I had to transfer my GI Bill to my wife and kids. However, my wife is taking horticulture classes at a state college that has an option of a 4yr degree...
I guess that I didn't get the official state document that cleared me of having "Donkey Brains". So, I'm 100% disabled from the VA and I'm sure that there is a doctor's note stating that I probably do have donkey brains. That's why they always talk down to me at my appointments like I am a low class citizen.
Sorry, I'm at home today with the flu and really bored. I've been binge watching "It's always sunny in Philadelphia" and I don't understand why I never watched the show before.
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ShLUbY
Well-Known Member
hope you're feeling better bud. Always sunny was a show I started out not liking, and then started to appreciated its dramatic silliness. Glad your wife is getting some horticulture education! Always good to be learning. No way you have donkey brains man... you have knowledge that so many people do not have, don't forget that! If your doctors talk down to you, then change doctors if you can. Cause that's some BS.
yeah excess Ca is no bueno. lockout city. probably have excess Fe in this water too. never had it tested but I can see what the plants told me... to many minerals!
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
Oh, I hated the show when I first saw it!
Yeah, she is trying to get a nutrition degree and the horticulture is just a bonus. She gets paid to go to school now, so take as many classes as she wants.
Can't really change doctors in the VA, but I can use my Medicare insurance and see private docs for a small copay. The VA should be disbanded and veterans should have the option of seeing private doctors. I saw the reviews of my primary care doc and she had very low reviews. Government always takes the lowest bidder on jobs and doctors are no different, that is how the VA ends up with the worst docs. They are the ones that couldn't cut it in the private sector. I'm still debating if I have donkey brains or not because I just cannot get a good grow to save my life! Maybe, these Earthboxes will work out for me? Anyways, thanks for talking with me.