horticultural veg light build, lost...stumped... I need advice, come on in!

oldbeancounter

oldbeancounter

Well-Known Member
Been using LED since Nov 2018 and find it both effective buy at times frustrating.
Like many I was new to LED and did not pick what I should of and have 2 dent flowering lights but know veg light as everything is 3000k samsung HGL lights.
It is not all bad.
The 2 -HLG 320 watt triple board QB288 V-2 301B Samsung diode lights (no reds) currently do fine but not for veg.(can do better flower too but thats next build)
I have 14 strips of LED @ 5000K with a sparely populated architecture just purchased.
They are the LED MODULE LT-QB22A 5000K STRIP with 40 diodes of Samsung 301B from digi .
Each 1120 mm strip diodes are about 1 cm apart.I did that on purpose(low density) to allow for close equal light mix in a frame. What would be the best pffd portion of light in 5000 for a veg light for 25 sq feet based on those strips?
What driver would power all of those strips in B- version of the HLG H series of 48A ?
I have 14 pieces 48 inches long of this heatsink
https://www.heatsinkusa.com/1-000/
to use to mount them on.
I would like highest eff plug and play diodes of each nm , these are 400-440 ish ( I have lots of 5000K blue need royal blue almost to violet 400 ish 420 or split to both)
Most importantly is 800 nm IR l,enough to heat to proper leaf temp over a 4 by 4 foot size(can be bigger going in 5 foot by 9 foot then blocking one half off it is Gollira brand in something efficient at that wave length.
I want two lights out of parts I have or will be getting next week or so.
One will be veg light, other flower, building veg light first hence all the 5000K hope it is not mistake I am not sure wattage of 14 of those strips over 48 by 48 inches frame?
Anyways I want Cree 650 nm red , 60 is that right for veg for same area as above 25 sq feet?
How many deepred then 700 ish and higher ?
Then IR, 800 nm, enough for a 5 foot by five foot veg tent area , the actual light to be 4 foot by 4 foot.
Osram and Cree latest for all likely rapid LED? plug and play I do have 4 extra 48 inches heatsinks one inch wide to make blue, red, best red deeper after that , then some lower bluish mainly violet all wired in each strip.
I have lots of 300 volt 105c single strand copper, stranded heavy, wagos , solder and gun, high heat tape and shrink wrap and willing to get three 5 way wagos or solder either is ok.
I plan to order framing soon as i know what I am putting in it leaning towards 2 inch angle 1/8 inch think for outside then I can use for a heatsink to picture frame against walls outside of light.
If you can give me idea of how many diodes per frame each color based on brand and model number it would help as will converted to watts my mind can get around that much anyways .
below is a really rought start to give an idea
I had thought I may need to bu more red strips in says 3000K but maybe the HGL lights can be fitted in to save money one per light with few extra 3000k from digi to make up difference.(320 xl are not in diagram but I can do so if i know where to out them?
I also have 5- new solocure 48 inches bulbs UVB and ballasts in T-8's 32 watts each bulb but can run watts higher up to max which is 50 ish each I understand maybe do not need that much of course they will last longer driven lower watts any suggestions watts per 25 sq feet t-8?
I would like CREE XP-G3 when it is best or Osram square(unless other are available quickly ) both plug in wire type no solder but i do have a solder gun just not good with it but I am fairly handy otherwise worked with tools many years. Have a multi meter, cheap Lux meter(no PAR meter)
Rapid led has good prices in Canada compared to shipping Europe but it can be anywhere really just want good product as good price and plug and play ones with the molex connector is nice just not sure how many each diode can have in a string so that would need to be pointed out for any one I buy .
Thanks for anyone willing to put some time aside to help me fullfill a last wish so to speak of gardening indoors and even a price of puzzle will help if someone does have part of it please pop in.
 
Rocket Soul

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
Whole lotta info!

So: 25 square foot veg light. What dimensions? How do you plan on controlling environment? Vented or AC? If vented, is your climate dry or humid, cold most of the year or hot and cold depending on seasons?
We have varying climate and need to run diffeeent systems over winter and summer.

On infrared: look for 850nm, generally the only available. Cutter has infrared diodes and they can put them on 1 foot strips. I dont know how much to use, id say most important to get it spread evenly. Probably no more than a few watts per square foot. But afaik noone done extensive tests on this. I got some infra strips but the new setup i non hold until we get a new location.
How much red for this setup? If youre youre married to 5000k id say maybe 15%, evenly spread. I would use 4000k for veg rather than 5000k though. I dont dont there is any value in that much blue even in veg.

On flower: we ran 2700k 90cri and fell in love with it. How big is your flower space? Also how will you control climate? I really encourage you to focus on this, its probably even more important than the lights. Especially with leds, you need to have more control inorder to dial in vpd and get transpiration going.
 
oldbeancounter

oldbeancounter

Well-Known Member
Rocket Soul said:
Whole lotta info!

So: 25 square foot veg light. What dimensions? How do you plan on controlling environment? Vented or AC? If vented, is your climate dry or humid, cold most of the year or hot and cold depending on seasons?
We have varying climate and need to run diffeeent systems over winter and summer.

On infrared: look for 850nm, generally the only available. Cutter has infrared diodes and they can put them on 1 foot strips. I dont know how much to use, id say most important to get it spread evenly. Probably no more than a few watts per square foot. But afaik noone done extensive tests on this. I got some infra strips but the new setup i non hold until we get a new location.
How much red for this setup? If youre youre married to 5000k id say maybe 15%, evenly spread. I would use 4000k for veg rather than 5000k though. I dont dont there is any value in that much blue even in veg.

On flower: we ran 2700k 90cri and fell in love with it. How big is your flower space? Also how will you control climate? I really encourage you to focus on this, its probably even more important than the lights. Especially with leds, you need to have more control inorder to dial in vpd and get transpiration going.
Click to expand...
Have AC big through wall unit use for livingroom now will be for tent , dehumidfier, humidifier will be in tent as will controls most of which are single control, devices all I need now is this light really.
I have a canfan max 8 inch will varible speed control 420CFM min
can filter 50 with insulated 8 inch hose to exhaust outdoors.
veg area 5 by 5 foot
light 48 inches by 48 inches
flower 9 by 5 foot will be using veg light and the 2 HLG 320 xl to flower hence needs to be powerful but also able to dial down to less than a foot with even PPF all over that 25 sq foot area
summer is coming but I keep it 70 F or less inside room tent is.
likely need dehumider alot just got Frigidaire 50 pint
lots of fans, super 8 figure one wall mount hurricane new , 2 small 8 inch, a 20 inch high power shop fan I will dial down to help with drying eventually not the row takes up to much room
using amended promix in cloth pots and I am well aware of VPD and follow it.
I can do up an amended diagram if needed this is just a draft attached for part ordering and pff plotting.

each channel to run separate to tune based on crop, can be each a separate driver. As far as control light what is best I have no idea, maybe the rapid led bluetooth one or a sono?
Off brand simple stuff is fine too all I want is simplicity once built to grow whatever I feel like.
If the 320 xl can be used in veg and flower then one big light to cover 45 sq feet first veg ,then flower no moving plants, they stay put, just tuning output and adjusts humidity etc.
it would be half split as to be able hang it and move it etc
maybe 48 inches by 8 feet total size, two parts, two separate areas that part of light controls.
Does that makes sense?
The ceiling height for light will be 7 feet or a little higher in tent.
co2 likely isnt wise as it is a tent and it is in my home so leak could prove a problem of course I doubt Gorrilla tents keep in co2.
Anyhow thanks you of helping me
I was struggling to figure this out an spend all my time trying.
just want to order parts and build it
ppfd maybe 1000-1100 across entire tent canopy (if it would be used without co2)but then be able to dial down to veg if needed and any veg or flower spectrum built in as would be even higher if wanted a very heavy sun loving plant to grow ,still looking at species, you can get anything now it is incredible.
Build it once done
oh and I am vented not closed room, vented air outside.
I might have to see if i can exchange those strips for 4000 and 3000k mix.
Have call and see .
costs what it cost within reason
 
Last edited:
Rocket Soul

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
Most people wouldnt flower with 5000k, to much blue and v little red. 3000k will veg fine but a little steain dependent. Our amnesia prefered 3500k and that would be my suggestion for all around spectrum.
If your making 2 lights with 48"x48" it will be quite easy to concieve. Only thing is, in order to raise and lower you will need to have access from all sides of the tent.

Im not sure where to get 3500k strips, what brand/shop carries that spectrum. Maybe waiting for bridgelux eb gen 3 might be a good idea but who knows when that arrives?!?

Youd need about 45x30= 1350w for the space. Start with 2 hlg600 for your base light. If your planning to use those 2 hlg320s youd ynly need one of these fixtures/drivers.

For adding reds: id suggest using about 10-15% so around 200w maybe? If you can get the reds as strips it will be easier. I wouldnt bother with blues if yiur going to use those solarcure bulbs.

IR: i i wou wait, simply. But i would boost my flowering temps from 70 to around 82F. I dont think theres a point adding too much at the same time. But its i good idea leave some realestate/space on your heatsinks to later on add more stuff.
 
ChiefRunningPhist

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
oldbeancounter said:
Been using LED since Nov 2018 and find it both effective buy at times frustrating.
Like many I was new to LED and did not pick what I should of and have 2 dent flowering lights but know veg light as everything is 3000k samsung HGL lights.
It is not all bad.
The 2 -HLG 320 watt triple board QB288 V-2 301B Samsung diode lights (no reds) currently do fine but not for veg.(can do better flower too but thats next build)
I have 14 strips of LED @ 5000K with a sparely populated architecture just purchased.
They are the LED MODULE LT-QB22A 5000K STRIP with 40 diodes of Samsung 301B from digi .
Each 1120 mm strip diodes are about 1 cm apart.I did that on purpose(low density) to allow for close equal light mix in a frame. What would be the best pffd portion of light in 5000 for a veg light for 25 sq feet based on those strips?
What driver would power all of those strips in B- version of the HLG H series of 48A ?
I have 14 pieces 48 inches long of this heatsink
https://www.heatsinkusa.com/1-000/
to use to mount them on.
I would like highest eff plug and play diodes of each nm , these are 400-440 ish ( I have lots of 5000K blue need royal blue almost to violet 400 ish 420 or split to both)
Most importantly is 800 nm IR l,enough to heat to proper leaf temp over a 4 by 4 foot size(can be bigger going in 5 foot by 9 foot then blocking one half off it is Gollira brand in something efficient at that wave length.
I want two lights out of parts I have or will be getting next week or so.
One will be veg light, other flower, building veg light first hence all the 5000K hope it is not mistake I am not sure wattage of 14 of those strips over 48 by 48 inches frame?
Anyways I want Cree 650 nm red , 60 is that right for veg for same area as above 25 sq feet?
How many deepred then 700 ish and higher ?
Then IR, 800 nm, enough for a 5 foot by five foot veg tent area , the actual light to be 4 foot by 4 foot.
Osram and Cree latest for all likely rapid LED? plug and play I do have 4 extra 48 inches heatsinks one inch wide to make blue, red, best red deeper after that , then some lower bluish mainly violet all wired in each strip.
I have lots of 300 volt 105c single strand copper, stranded heavy, wagos , solder and gun, high heat tape and shrink wrap and willing to get three 5 way wagos or solder either is ok.
I plan to order framing soon as i know what I am putting in it leaning towards 2 inch angle 1/8 inch think for outside then I can use for a heatsink to picture frame against walls outside of light.
If you can give me idea of how many diodes per frame each color based on brand and model number it would help as will converted to watts my mind can get around that much anyways .
below is a really rought start to give an idea
I had thought I may need to bu more red strips in says 3000K but maybe the HGL lights can be fitted in to save money one per light with few extra 3000k from digi to make up difference.(320 xl are not in diagram but I can do so if i know where to out them?
I also have 5- new solocure 48 inches bulbs UVB and ballasts in T-8's 32 watts each bulb but can run watts higher up to max which is 50 ish each I understand maybe do not need that much of course they will last longer driven lower watts any suggestions watts per 25 sq feet t-8?
I would like CREE XP-G3 when it is best or Osram square(unless other are available quickly ) both plug in wire type no solder but i do have a solder gun just not good with it but I am fairly handy otherwise worked with tools many years. Have a multi meter, cheap Lux meter(no PAR meter)
Rapid led has good prices in Canada compared to shipping Europe but it can be anywhere really just want good product as good price and plug and play ones with the molex connector is nice just not sure how many each diode can have in a string so that would need to be pointed out for any one I buy .
Thanks for anyone willing to put some time aside to help me fullfill a last wish so to speak of gardening indoors and even a price of puzzle will help if someone does have part of it please pop in.
Click to expand...
Tent Area:
4' × 4' = [16ft2]

~Bloom wattage:
35W/ft2 × [16ft2] = ≥560W for Bloom

~Veg wattage:
[560W] ÷ 2 = ≥280W for Veg

~Strip Wattage:
20W - 40W

Strip Qty:
14

Typically people estimate bloom wattage needs of 35W-37.5W per sq ft. Veg could be half of this.

...Just an idea...

VEG (280W):
(7) 5k strips + (7) 3k strips for veg @ 20W
=
(14) total strips @ 280W.

BLOOM (325W):
(10) 3k strips + (3) UV,R,FR,NIR strips @ 25W
=
(13) total strips @ 325W


A 320h-48AB driver would be used for each array. Veg would be majority Blue but still have some Red for a balanced SPD, and bloom would be majority Red but still have some Blue from the veg, + the supplemental chip strips to widen out the SPD.

EDIT:
If your area is bigger than 4×4 then just plug your numbers in [ ] and calculate for your needs.
I'd maybe go half n half, 5k n 3k for veg at 17.5W/ft2,... and I'd add 20W/ft2 of 3k for bloom + any supps you're running.
 
Last edited:
Randomblame

Randomblame

Well-Known Member
oldbeancounter said:
@ChiefRunningPhist
@rocket-soul

Any help would be great I am not able to do math for how many diodes in new light.
Thanks!
Click to expand...

Why not use just a few 5k strips as sidelights in your 3k tents? It would add enough blue wavelength for the vegetative stage and would also help with the temps because sidelights are at the same height.

IR diodes are not a good idea because they are not very efficient in producing heat. Use a small heater if needed or just dimm the exaust fans. A temp/humidity controller is very helpful here.

The most issues with LED's are caused by the missing heat radiation, that's right. But there are other ways to deal with it as to add 100-200w of IR. A 1000w HPS has around 20% heat radiation, its not a good idea to mimic this with LED's.
You need to keep an eye on the humidity in your grow area. That was not so important with HPS because of its radiated heat.
With LED's we need higher ambient temps to get higher leaf temps but with higher ambient temps you need higher humidity too keep the VPD in a healthy range.
Use 70-75% in early veg, + 80% in the germinating stage, lower it to 65-70% in late veg and early bloom stage and use 60-65% RH in the flowering stage.
Recommend VPD values are..
0,4-0,8kpa in early veg
0,8-1,2kpa in veg and early bloom and
1,2-1,6kpa in mid to late bloom stage
Recommended temp range 28-30°C for all plant stages!
That's a VPD chart which already has -1° less leaf than ambient temps. You can use the numbers without changes..
VPD Chart -1°C Leaf Temps.gif

Believe me, the most common issues new LED growers have are caused by too low humidity.
You don't need AC and you can also use a smaller exaust fan but you should add a humiditier and maybe also a heater if its impossible to get the temps up. 28-30°C is the optimal temp range with LED bit that don't means you can not grow with lower ambient temps. Only make sure the VPD is in a good range.
A too high VPD cause more transpiration and more transpiration means more nutrient uptake. And especially too much calcium can quickly cause issues because it locks out other metalls like magnesium and phosphor and later iron aso. too.

You can deal with a too high VPD too. Lets say the VPD is +1,0kpa(25°C but only 60% RH) but the plants are in early veg and should rather have between 0,4 and 0,8kpa. You can either increase the humidity to +70% or lower the nutrient strength accordingly. +1,0 is ~30% too high and when you use 30% lower ppms the plants can transpire more water but still take up an healthy amount of nutes.
Copy that chart, print it out and hang it next to you temp/humidity controller. Add a humidifier to your room and use the temp side of the controller for exaust and the humidity side for the humidifier!
If you keep that in mind its much more easy to work with LED's.

Read also my answer in the UV thread. XP-G3 don't exsist in deep-red, only white and royal blue. XP-E2 and Oslon Square series are the latest deepreds and both create +4μMol/J in the highest binnings.

To run Q-series strips you can use B version HLG drivers. They are dimmable down to ~10% and a good dimmer costs 6 bucks(rapidled, prewired). Connect it to the dimming wire and thats it! Dimming means you have much more control over the spectrum when using different types of diodes and you can use it for veg and flowering stage.

Optimal range for germination, veg and flowering stage are..
150-300μMol/s/m² in early veg and germination
300-600μMol/s/m² in veg and early flowering stage and
600-1000μMol/s/m² in the flowering stage.
I'll add a pdf below with a few recommendations from fluence. But be careful with the PPM/EC recommendations, they depend on your grow style. The numbers in the pdf are much too high if you use cocoDTW for instance. Humidity numbers are also on the high side which means the plants take up a hell lot of nutes all the time.
Rather use the chart above to stay on the safe side.

I hope I've answered all you questions..
 

Attachments

Last edited:
oldbeancounter

oldbeancounter

Well-Known Member
Randomblame said:
Why not use just a few 5k strips as sidelights in your 3k tents? It would add enough blue wavelength for the vegetative stage and would also help with the temps because sidelights are at the same height.

IR diodes are not a good idea because they are not very efficient in producing heat. Use a small heater if needed or just dimm the exaust fans. A temp/humidity controller is very helpful here.

The most issues with LED's are caused by the missing heat radiation, that's right. But there are other ways to deal with it as to add 100-200w of IR. A 1000w HPS has around 20% heat radiation, its not a good idea to mimic this with LED's.
You need to keep an eye on the humidity in your grow area. That was not so important with HPS because of its radiated heat.
With LED's we need higher ambient temps to get higher leaf temps but with higher ambient temps you need higher humidity too keep the VPD in a healthy range.
Use 70-75% in early veg, + 80% in the germinating stage, lower it to 65-70% in late veg and early bloom stage and use 60-65% RH in the flowering stage.
Recommend VPD values are..
0,4-0,8kpa in early veg
0,8-1,2kpa in veg and early bloom and
1,2-1,6kpa in mid to late bloom stage
Recommended temp range 28-30°C for all plant stages!
That's a VPD chart which already has -1° less leaf than ambient temps. You can use the numbers without changes..
View attachment 4340265

Believe me, the most common issues new LED growers have are caused by too low humidity.
You don't need AC and you can also use a smaller exaust fan but you should add a humiditier and maybe also a heater if its impossible to get the temps up. 28-30°C is the optimal temp range with LED bit that don't means you can not grow with lower ambient temps. Only make sure the VPD is in a good range.
A too high VPD cause more transpiration and more transpiration means more nutrient uptake. And especially too much calcium can quickly cause issues because it locks out other metalls like magnesium and phosphor and later iron aso. too.

You can deal with a too high VPD too. Lets say the VPD is +1,0kpa(25°C but only 60% RH) but the plants are in early veg and should rather have between 0,4 and 0,8kpa. You can either increase the humidity to +70% or lower the nutrient strength accordingly. +1,0 is ~30% too high and when you use 30% lower ppms the plants can transpire more water but still take up an healthy amount of nutes.
Copy that chart, print it out and hang it next to you temp/humidity controller. Add a humidifier to your room and use the temp side of the controller for exaust and the humidity side for the humidifier!
If you keep that in mind its much more easy to work with LED's.

Read also my answer in the UV thread. XP-G3 don't exsist in deep-red, only white and royal blue. XP-E2 and Oslon Square series are the latest deepreds and both create +4μMol/J in the highest binnings.

To run Q-series strips you can use B version HLG drivers. They are dimmable down to ~10% and a good dimmer costs 6 bucks(rapidled, prewired). Connect it to the dimming wire and thats it! Dimming means you have much more control over the spectrum when using different types of diodes and you can use it for veg and flowering stage.

Optimal range for germination, veg and flowering stage are..
150-300μMol/s/m² in early veg and germination
300-600μMol/s/m² in veg and early flowering stage and
600-1000μMol/s/m² in the flowering stage.
I'll add a pdf below with a few recommendations from fluence. But be careful with the PPM/EC recommendations, they depend on your grow style. The numbers in the pdf are much too high if you use cocoDTW for instance. Humidity numbers are also on the high side which means the plants take up a hell lot of nutes all the time.
Rather use the chart above to stay on the safe side.

I hope I've answered all you questions..
Click to expand...
@Randomblame
Wow, indeed you have answered so much.
I will go over it and make sure I am understanding everything which I think I am and not waste money or waste time up the wrong path like with IR LED.
Thank you
I will get back to you once I get some zzz's and see if that confusion I have is hopefully solved, which it appears it has been.
Side lighting is an excellent idea , if I know the electrical end the actual assembly isn't so hard i am used to building stuff I am just very slow, not like my younger days lol
 
Last edited:
Randomblame

Randomblame

Well-Known Member
oldbeancounter said:
@Randomblame
Wow, indeed you have answered so much.
I will go over it and make sure I am understanding everything which I think I am and not waste money of waste time up the wrong path with with IR LED.
Thank you
I will get back to you once I get some zzz's and see if that confusion I have is hopefully solved, which it appears it has been.
Side lighting is an excellent idea , if I know the electrical end the actual assembly isn't so hard i am used to building stuff I am just very slow, not like my younger days lol
Click to expand...
Lol! I'm on the same train... Rather do it slow but do it right from the beginning.
Much better as to make changes later.. Good planning makes half the job; the other half is just assembing.


Hey Chief, have you anything running till know or are you still in the planning stage?
 
ChiefRunningPhist

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
Randomblame said:
Lol! I'm on the same train... Rather do it slow but do it right from the beginning.
Much better as to make changes later.. Good planning makes half the job; the other half is just assembing.


Hey Chief, have you anything running till know or are you still in the planning stage?
Click to expand...
No.. just being boring lol..

But anticipate soon-ish haha
 
oldbeancounter

oldbeancounter

Well-Known Member
ChiefRunningPhist said:
Just some more possible distribution ideas. :bigjoint:
View attachment 4340272
View attachment 4340273
View attachment 4340278
View attachment 4340277

^^First and last are my favorites
Click to expand...
@ChiefRunningPhist
Going with the first one as close as I can
the HLG320 3000k light wont be in this fixture.
I will start shopping strips , diodes
and once I have everything go back through your, and any others that helped to
hopefully do as much as my own as I can.
Feel much more confident but certainly lack the knowledge you do.
thank you very much for all your effort
 
oldbeancounter

oldbeancounter

Well-Known Member
ChiefRunningPhist said:
Tent Area:
4' × 4' = [16ft2]

~Bloom wattage:
35W/ft2 × [16ft2] = ≥560W for Bloom

~Veg wattage:
[560W] ÷ 2 = ≥280W for Veg

~Strip Wattage:
20W - 40W

Strip Qty:
14

Typically people estimate bloom wattage needs of 35W-37.5W per sq ft. Veg could be half of this.

...Just an idea...

VEG (280W):
(7) 5k strips + (7) 3k strips for veg @ 20W
=
(14) total strips @ 280W.

BLOOM (325W):
(10) 3k strips + (3) UV,R,FR,NIR strips @ 25W
=
(13) total strips @ 325W


A 320h-48AB driver would be used for each array. Veg would be majority Blue but still have some Red for a balanced SPD, and bloom would be majority Red but still have some Blue from the veg, + the supplemental chip strips to widen out the SPD.

EDIT:
If your area is bigger than 4×4 then just plug your numbers in [ ] and calculate for your needs.
I'd maybe go half n half, 5k n 3k for veg at 17.5W/ft2,... and I'd add 20W/ft2 of 3k for bloom + any supps you're running.
Click to expand...
@ChiefRunningPhist
I am going to use all of the 5000k( 14 strips run at 22 watts each on a Meanwell HLG320 H 48B and also the 3000k samsung HLG QB 288'S on the two HLG 320XL led lights i have ( 6 AT 110 Watts each total 660 watts for two lights)
Spending my money on all red, far red, UV 380-420 ish
blue for 420-450nm
using Cutter if I can get what I want all on one strip mixed with separate channels then put a bluefish controller to adjust channels to suit.
 
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