Aeroponic / DWC hybrid idea

[DaveTheNewbie]

ok so here are my assumptions :

- AEROPONICS PRO - good growth rate via fast nutrient absorbtion via lots of oxygen
- AEROPONICS CON - VERY vunerable to power failures - you can lose a whole crop in no time at all.
- DWC PRO - pretty simple and resistant to problems - in power failures can last a while still
- DWC PRO - very low height restrictions compared to aeroponics as the roots can pile up instead of being held straight.
- DWC CON - suposedly not as efficient at growing due to less oxygen available.
- the top 1/3 of the roots are where the nutrients are absorbed
- the bottom 2/3 of the roots are where the water is absorbed
- oxygen is the main factor in nutrient absorbtion
- oxygen isnt so important in water absorbtion

Given all that, it stands to reason that you could set up a 'bucket' that is 1/2 to 1/3 full and run it as a DWC, but have an aeroponic spraw/mist/fog system that runs in the top 1/2 to 2/3.
You would only have to run the sprayers say 15 mins per hour, water isnt an issue, just nutrient.
There would be all the water you need for the bottom 2/3 of the roots in a DWC pool.
If the power runs out then there is a bucket of water to keep the plant alive, it just lacks a little bit of nutrient until we get power back up and running.
The aero sprayers would also put oxygen into the water to suppliment the DWC air bubblers.
It would also be dead easy to set up.

Is this a good idea, already done, or complete garbage ?

 

[AeroKing]

GH makes a hybrid system called a rainforest. I use one for veg. I love it, you could build one cheaper I'm sure. It is also a self contained unit, the solution is drawn up a rotary mister, but a pump with misters would also work well.

I don't think its a necessity to have a seperate res, but I use a chiller to cool the solution. If you located your seperate res in a cool area, it would help. Oh, and make sure you insulate the res in the grow area.

Also a note: there was no mention of a air stone in the manual for the rainforest, but to me, once the roots hit the solution, it's a necessity.

 

[namenottaken]

I'm trying out an aquamist system, like you see them use in "See More Buds" and it's somewhat like what you're talking about except bigger than a bucket. I have 10 gallons in the bottom of the res. with 3 sprayers that spray the roots up above. So far I love it. I'm still only in the veg stage but I'll be switching to flower soon.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

The rainforest is pure aeroponics. very cool looking unit. but if the power fails for more than a few hours your in the poo in a big way. but yeah i like pure aero for sure, it gets results.
im looking into what the aquamist is atm.

 

[AeroKing]

The rainforest is pure aeroponics.

I assure you, it is a hybrid system. The roots hang in the reservoir.
The res has about 6" of air space -this is where the misting takes place.
Once the roots drop lower than that, it is also a DWC, the roots are submerged in the reservoir.
Early on, power outage could be a problem (forcing me to flood the res to the top or at least to the roots), but it only took a couple weeks from seed for the roots to reach the water level(they grow extremely fast in the mister). A long term outage with no air pump, could cause oxy deprivation, but that would be so with any DWC.
What I can say is that you have an excellent idea. It truly offers the "best of both worlds". Plants grow incredibly fast in this unit. And like I said, if you did decide to use an external res, you would probably eliminate res temp issues.
I'm sort of confused on your idea to use clear water in your DWC res, though. I'd think that just letting an overflow line drain back into the external res and the misters to push into your internal res would be effective. I'd love to set up a system just like that, except with one big res and several DWC res's.
I'll be happy to help you if you decide to go through with it. I'm fairly new to hydro/aero, but I own several commercial bought systems that I can reference, and I have done a shitload of research about it. Send a pm, i check in every few days.
*One quick suggestion, if you do decide to go with it, look into "tough boxes". I think they're made by rubbermaid, set up just about perfectly for 6 good size plants.

 

[tusseltussel]

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/22362-30-minute-6-plant-aero.html
works great just dnt let em get to big

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

I assure you, it is a hybrid system. The roots hang in the reservoir.

ok so its exactally what im suggesting here then ... cool

does the res have a air bubbler like "normal" DWC does, or is the splash from the misting good enough to oxygenate the water, or does the water not need to be oxygenated ?

 

[AeroKing]

ok so its exactally what im suggesting here then ... cool

does the res have a air bubbler like "normal" DWC does, or is the splash from the misting good enough to oxygenate the water, or does the water not need to be oxygenated ?

Ya know, it doesn't come with it, or mention adding one in the manual. I guess that theoretically, the mister running 24/7 would oxygenate it, but I added a stone as soon as the roots hit the water.
It is my belief that with HID lighting and co2 enrichment, that only leaves o2 to the roots as "the bottleneck" (so long as environment and nutrients are managed properly), so I figured the more air, the better. I opted for the "boss hog 2x diffuser" on a commercial pond pump. It keeps the reservoir foamy and constantly churning. It's also nice that when I add ph adjust or nutes, it mixes itself.
I'd had some setbacks early on, but now growth is superb! I just wish that I did have a secondary res, because about 10 gallons in the res with 6 fast growing mosters is kind of hard to keep stable. I'm constantly chasing ppm and ph.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

Ya know, it doesn't come with it, or mention adding one in the manual. I guess that theoretically, the mister running 24/7 would oxygenate it, but I added a stone as soon as the roots hit the water.

Heh i think i would have done the same. So the mister runs 24/7 ?

It is my belief that with HID lighting and co2 enrichment, that only leaves o2 to the roots as "the bottleneck" (so long as environment and nutrients are managed properly), so I figured the more air, the better.

my thoughts exactally

I just wish that I did have a secondary res, because about 10 gallons in the res with 6 fast growing mosters is kind of hard to keep stable. I'm constantly chasing ppm and ph.

i cant see why you cant go to a hydro shop and buy a couple of plugs/adaptors, drill a hole in the wall and add some sort of res, you obviously see the advantages of it.

You are making me want to buy one of them tho, seriously. My first home made aero system pissed water from about 20-30 different leaks Im on a winner now tho. You just need to get the right parts to make sure that you dont have leaky sections, doing it right is better than doing it 20 times with a silicone gun.

 

[AeroKing]

Heh i think i would have done the same. So the mister runs 24/7 ?

I ran it on a cycling timer for a little while, but it didn't seem to make a difference. I think if you are cloning directly into the system, then you would need a "drying out" period, but otherwise, the roots get plenty of o2, and I don't see any advantage to cycling. IMO, the pump doesn't really generate a significant amount of heat to make that a concern.

i cant see why you cant go to a hydro shop and buy a couple of plugs/adaptors, drill a hole in the wall and add some sort of res, you obviously see the advantages of it.

I think you talked me into it. I'll just have to add it to the list. Right now, it's looking like it will have to wait until the next grow.
It wouldn't really work in the way your system would though. The mister doesn't use a pump, it uses a "rifled barrel" that spins and draws the liquid up out of the res and then flings it around quickly. I could have the chiller pump pick up from the main res, then dump into the 2nd where it would overflow back to the main, though.

You just need to get the right parts to make sure that you dont have leaky sections, doing it right is better than doing it 20 times with a silicone gun.

I'd like to get a line on the fittings that GH uses for there sight tubes. They are a grommet like fitting that allows full rotation of the fitting. No leak problems, even completely submerged and while manipulating them. I'm sure they're available somewhere online, it'll probably just take some searching. I'd definitely recommend you consider them.

 

[OverD0se]

ok so here are my assumptions :

- AEROPONICS PRO - good growth rate via fast nutrient absorbtion via lots of oxygen
- AEROPONICS CON - VERY vunerable to power failures - you can lose a whole crop in no time at all.
- DWC PRO - pretty simple and resistant to problems - in power failures can last a while still
- DWC PRO - very low height restrictions compared to aeroponics as the roots can pile up instead of being held straight.
- DWC CON - suposedly not as efficient at growing due to less oxygen available.
- the top 1/3 of the roots are where the nutrients are absorbed
- the bottom 2/3 of the roots are where the water is absorbed
- oxygen is the main factor in nutrient absorbtion
- oxygen isnt so important in water absorbtion

Given all that, it stands to reason that you could set up a 'bucket' that is 1/2 to 1/3 full and run it as a DWC, but have an aeroponic spraw/mist/fog system that runs in the top 1/2 to 2/3.
You would only have to run the sprayers say 15 mins per hour, water isnt an issue, just nutrient.
There would be all the water you need for the bottom 2/3 of the roots in a DWC pool.
If the power runs out then there is a bucket of water to keep the plant alive, it just lacks a little bit of nutrient until we get power back up and running.
The aero sprayers would also put oxygen into the water to suppliment the DWC air bubblers.
It would also be dead easy to set up.

Is this a good idea, already done, or complete garbage ?

Its a good idea .. but may I ask you how could you seprate water from nutrient? You will get a mix of water+nutrient after each 15 min because the spraied water will mix down with water ! If you solve this problem,Your system is one of the best system that I ever se ... I have an idea but will tell you later,think about it and let us know whatz going on ...

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

Its a good idea .. but may I ask you how could you seprate water from nutrient? You will get a mix of water+nutrient after each 15 min because the spraied water will mix down with water ! If you solve this problem,Your system is one of the best system that I ever se ... I have an idea but will tell you later,think about it and let us know whatz going on ...

the only way i can solve this one is some sort of dry/semidry nutes that sit in a net and dont wash down into the water ... no idea how im going to achieve this one tho

 

[tusseltussel]

you all didnt like my link. its a hybrid areo dwc and may i ask why you need to keep your nutes separate ??????maybe i missed sumthin idk

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

you all didnt like my link. its a hybrid areo dwc and may i ask why you need to keep your nutes separate ??????maybe i missed sumthin idk

I dont see it as DWC : there is no air bubbler. Maybe i didnt read far enough.
But its a very nice simple cheap and efficient aero system for sure.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

check out my other idea for improving DWC, called the Distributed Deep Water Culture.

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/129061-ddwc-distributed-deep-water-culture.html#post1592054

Im planning to mix these 2 ideas to make the perfect growing environment !

(insert mad professor laugh here)

 

[tusseltussel]

I dont see it as DWC : there is no air bubbler. Maybe i didnt read far enough.
But its a very nice simple cheap and efficient aero system for sure.

hmmm thats strange you couldnt just put a airstone in it, which you have to bcause it is just that a dwc/areo... it totally is a areo dwc unit if it was just areo the roots would not hang into the res they would be in ther own chamber, not in the water like dwc. it is dwc\areo period not just areo.

you can buy an air pump and stone, if you read far enuff it suggests to use one.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

you can buy an air pump and stone, if you read far enuff it suggests to use one.

thats the point i was raising, is it worth using an aero up top and an airstone down low?

it seems to me the answer is yes.

EDIT : and filling the bottom half (DWC half) with rocks as well

 

[AeroKing]

I think maybe I (and others) was initially confused.

When you'd said that they "would be without nutes if the power was out", this was indicative of your "bottom 2/3 do not absorb nutes" assumption? Not that clear water lies in the bottom of the main res, right? Because in the pic, it would be a recycling nute solution.

I don't see any benefit of clear water in the res at all. A clearer solution may hold more DO, but I don't think that it could make a big enough difference.

As for your DDWC idea, it was my impression that rocks are really only there as a mechanical means to hold the plants up. I think that with the right air supply, it would be unnecessary. I use a commercial pond pump with a "Boss Hog 2x" Micropore diffuser. It doesn't just have bubbles running up the roots, it swishes the roots all around in the res. Some would call it overkill, Me, I like overkill (and you seem like you do, too). I've not seen any reason to think that stationary roots are beneficial. True, it is more like nature, but nature rarely sees DWC, and I doubt anybodies ever seen an aeroponic grown pot plant in nature. I don't try to recreate nature, I try to better it.

Now, to get on to efficiency. What I don't know is, if the roots can actually use any of this o2, because it is not dissolved o2 in water. If not, both of our systems are a waste. Otherwise, your idea of forcing the bubbles to stay in the res longer makes sense, so long as you don't reach a point that the o2 is absorbed out of the air bubble (point of diminishing returns...). My commercial pump draws about 35 watts, but it will feed 4 of these boss hogs (or 4 big reservoirs). Cutting this down to a 1-2 watt pump per res would save power consumption.

Cons:

Res changes become more difficult, especially flushes.
You won't be able to lift the lid of the res (or are you growing directly out of the bed of rocks? - if you are, what about evaporation?).
Can you expect an even dispersement of tds and ph?
How do you take readings?
Increase in salt buildup (more surface area).
You won't be able to clean the res at anytime throughout the grow.
You can't use a chiller, or you would have to bury the pump/plumbing under the rocks (fucked if you have a failure).
You can't visually check the roots.
You can't remove a single plant.

Some of these won't really apply or matter. There may also be a few others... Personally I like your first idea better. I'll try to shoot some pics of my setup later to give you a better idea of how it works...

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

heh i was trying to keep the rocks in DWC and the hybrid DWC/aero threads seperate as seperate ideas that i was going to combine down the road.
answered in the DWC thread.

1) your points about O2 and dissovled and stuff is a good point
2) if the roots move around alot is that a problem or do they cope. i was wondering this.

Me, I like overkill (and you seem like you do, too)

hell yeah !

 

[OverD0se]

Dude...You need a ultrasonic mister and I orderd two of them yesterday . I'll design an aero/Dwc soon and let you know the result . You can find mister here and design your own ! : Ultrasonic Water Fogger-The Mist Maker I think its the best idea because I will get as small as possible part combined with O2 and you can use two pc fan to circulate the mists inside the my box .Only1/3 of the plant roots will stay in water,So I will not worry about any problem + Best result .what do you think ?!