First timer - organic grow questions

[Unclebilly]

Hey guys so basically, I’m just ending my first week of flower.

everything has been going great so far I think.
I’m starting to grasp the concept after much research about the microbiology, nutrients breaking down and being available to the plant through the living soil etc...

I noticed over the past few days my new growth up top dropping and the rest of the plant looks good. I’ve only read that to be overwatering? Which I don’t think I’m doing...

Any advice on what that might be or how to rectify it would be greatly appreciated.

my other question is general... but how do I know when to add nutrients such as an organic dry amendment top Dressing or tea? I feel like I don’t want to wait for a deficiency to pop up before trying to guess at what’s wrong in the middle of flower. I also don’t want to be jamming a bunch of amendments to a soil that is already sufficient in such nutrients. I guess I am just inexperienced and not sure what to look for. Any tips would be great.

so far during this grow, every time I have seen a problem, I think I just outgrew the container. Once I transplant into a larger container, with More soil, they bounce back easily. I’m currently in 5gallon grow bags.



(also, don’t mind the plant in the middle, she’s a runt and I didn’t have the heart to cut her down)

soil recipe is below


my soil recipe is here:
1 part Canadian Peat moss
1 part organic compost
1 part perlite

Kelp meal, ½ cup per cubic foot of soil*
Neem meal, ½ cup per cubic foot of soil
Crab or Crustacean Meal, ½ cup per cubic foot of soil
Rock Dust, 2 cups per cubic foot of soil
Gypsum, 1 cup per cubic foot of soil
Oyster Shell flour, 1 cup per cubic foot of soil
A handful of worm castings

In the recipe above, when I mention the amendment amounts “per cubic foot of soil”, I mean the total combined volume including peat moss, compost, and aeration.

 

[m4s73r]

So first thing, I would supercrop that to let the rest of the plant catch up a bit. Just my opinion.
What is your light source?
Based on what i'm seeing so far you could be overwatering, but I doubt it. I think your light is to close to those tops and your humidity is low.

If your watering till the pot is heavy with no run off at all then I say Good job. If you ever want a measurement always do 5% water to soil. So 1 gallon of water per 20 gallons of soil. Easy. With small fabric pots I went 10 percent. Mainly due to run off from fabric pot. I got sick of it when I did 25 gallon no tills and i just suran wrapped the pots. left the bottom fabric.

Secondly. Small fabric pots like that are horrible for organic grows using living soil. 2 main reason. Cannabis drinks water fast. so you need something that wont dry out. IF you were to dump those pots you would find a lot of dry soil in them. Since we are already there, I would make sure to water with a whetting agent. Either yucca or aloe. that will make sure all your media gets properly hydrated. Peat can be a PITA once its good and dry.
Third your soil mix. Looks good. Couple of things to consider adding in as you go along. Vermiculite. Its got an amazing cation rate, holds A LOT of water, and adds silica to your mix. I use it in my HugelKultur bed. Consider it part of your 1part Perlite.

Third, You really, REALLY need to go to the local nursery and buy a bag of composted mulch. Ask them for the best shit they got. Make sure its composted good. Ask them to show you some. I get Back to Nature Cotton Burr from mine if I need it. $10 2 Cubic Ft. And fill the tops of all those pots with that. Clear just enough away that its not on the stalk of your girls. But unless you plan on spending money on nutrients and bottle you need to get to mulching bro. Like big time. you should have grown a cover crop over those and killed it off before you put plants in it.

I like what you got going on. Ive subed your post look forward to seeing how this turns out. Check my sigs, I got a couple of 4x4 Organic no till beds going on.

 

[Unclebilly]

So first thing, I would supercrop that to let the rest of the plant catch up a bit. Just my opinion.
What is your light source?
Based on what i'm seeing so far you could be overwatering, but I doubt it. I think your light is to close to those tops and your humidity is low.

If your watering till the pot is heavy with no run off at all then I say Good job. If you ever want a measurement always do 5% water to soil. So 1 gallon of water per 20 gallons of soil. Easy. With small fabric pots I went 10 percent. Mainly due to run off from fabric pot. I got sick of it when I did 25 gallon no tills and i just suran wrapped the pots. left the bottom fabric.

Secondly. Small fabric pots like that are horrible for organic grows using living soil. 2 main reason. Cannabis drinks water fast. so you need something that wont dry out. IF you were to dump those pots you would find a lot of dry soil in them. Since we are already there, I would make sure to water with a whetting agent. Either yucca or aloe. that will make sure all your media gets properly hydrated. Peat can be a PITA once its good and dry.
Third your soil mix. Looks good. Couple of things to consider adding in as you go along. Vermiculite. Its got an amazing cation rate, holds A LOT of water, and adds silica to your mix. I use it in my HugelKultur bed. Consider it part of your 1part Perlite.

Third, You really, REALLY need to go to the local nursery and buy a bag of composted mulch. Ask them for the best shit they got. Make sure its composted good. Ask them to show you some. I get Back to Nature Cotton Burr from mine if I need it. $10 2 Cubic Ft. And fill the tops of all those pots with that. Clear just enough away that its not on the stalk of your girls. But unless you plan on spending money on nutrients and bottle you need to get to mulching bro. Like big time. you should have grown a cover crop over those and killed it off before you put plants in it.

I like what you got going on. Ive subed your post look forward to seeing how this turns out. Check my sigs, I got a couple of 4x4 Organic no till beds going on.

thanks for the tips man! As for my light it’s a custom led fixture I built from eb strips and and a 320w mean well driver. I have a separate write up on that build.
I have about 800-900 PPFD on most tops. The tall ones are 1000-1200 PPFD as of yesterday.

I want to keep it organic and I don’t really want to use any bottled nutes. My plan was to keep no till pots, but quickly learned 5 gallons is way too small for that. So top dressing with composted mulch will provide the soil with nutrients needed in flower? As well as help retain moisture?

Is that the idea?

To be honest I’ve only seen a little runoff once in these pots. And my humidity is mid 40’s. And about 76F lights on and around 68-70 with lights off. I lowered my humidity from around 55-60 after veg state based on some stuff I read on here.

 

[Rurumo]

Mulch is great, but straw is as good a mulch as any, just try to find stuff you know wasn't sprayed with anything too sinister. As for watering, have you looked at the schedule they use in this thread? https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/no-till-gardening-revisited.1400505/
They water in aloe, silica, and fulvic acid according to a schedule, I forget what it's like because I just do my own thing that is pretty similar. One of the best things besides regular mulching, is adding malted barley powder as a topdress. Also, if you search that thread, MOFO does give some good watering advice somewhere in there, in terms of quantity/how often, etc. Good luck!!

 

[Unclebilly]

Mulch is great, but straw is as good a mulch as any, just try to find stuff you know wasn't sprayed with anything too sinister. As for watering, have you looked at the schedule they use in this thread? https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/no-till-gardening-revisited.1400505/
They water in aloe, silica, and fulvic acid according to a schedule, I forget what it's like because I just do my own thing that is pretty similar. One of the best things besides regular mulching, is adding malted barley powder as a topdress. Also, if you search that thread, MOFO does give some good watering advice somewhere in there, in terms of quantity/how often, etc. Good luck!!

Thanks!! No I haven’t but I will read through it tonight!

 

[green_machine_two9er]

Great advice here so far!
I don’t have much to add except...
Sometimes I first run “coots” soil mixes I find nutrient availability to be lower then subsequent runs with recycled soils.

on first run pots I like to top dress nutrients right away. Use your kelp,crab, and neem. Something like 1/2 teas. Per gallon soil. Then cover with 1/2 inch ewc. Then your mulch layer orstraw.

my theory is pretty simple. Add mynutrients fornext cycle, but adding it this cycle so some % of it breaks down from the top. Supplementing nutrients value in the soil itself.

I always stay one cycle ahead.Thinking on the molecular level of breakdown. Even if your peice of crab shell is”dissolved” that doesn’t mean the plant has gotten close to taking all the nutrients out of that peice. It’s stuck in limbo working with the micro herd over long periods of time to become depleted.

good luck stick with it! Ditch the fabrics next run. And close the gap on top of containers with the mulch or something to act as moisture lock.

 

[Rozgreenburn]

All the smart stuff's already been said, Good, I'll just watch ...

 

[myke]

Newbie here,I never listened to good advice.Ewc turns to cement if not covered so take the advice above about mulch.I do it now and its a so nice and fluffy lol.

 

[m4s73r]

thanks for the tips man! As for my light it’s a custom led fixture I built from eb strips and and a 320w mean well driver. I have a separate write up on that build.
I have about 800-900 PPFD on most tops. The tall ones are 1000-1200 PPFD as of yesterday.

I want to keep it organic and I don’t really want to use any bottled nutes. My plan was to keep no till pots, but quickly learned 5 gallons is way too small for that. So top dressing with composted mulch will provide the soil with nutrients needed in flower? As well as help retain moisture?

Is that the idea?

To be honest I’ve only seen a little runoff once in these pots. And my humidity is mid 40’s. And about 76F lights on and around 68-70 with lights off. I lowered my humidity from around 55-60 after veg state based on some stuff I read on here.

May back those leds off a bit or supercrop.
So I'm going to give you a visual. I want you to imagine that you pot is a giant garbage disposal. The garbage is your nutrient mix, everything from each harvest that is organic, fan leaves, stems, roots, main stem, trim, finished runs of bubble hash ect. All of that is your organic mulch or your garbage.
Now for this garbage dispose to work correctly it need a few things to always be true. Its needs to be properly Moist. You are creating a microscopic environment. It needs to be dark and moist. Nice and Moist. So Moist LOL. Second, we need to have 2 levels in a bed, Soil and mulch. That little space between the soil and the mulch is the teeth of this garbage disposal. Thats where all the life lives that keeps this beast chewing shit down. Now like any good beast we need to make sure it gets its vitamins and minerals. (Thats your nutrient mix. I use Craft Blend from BAS) It needs to keep its teeth nice and white (PH) As this beast consumes it will slowly get more acidic. The nutrient mix counters that. Make sure you got some oyster shell to keep your ph good. Now we cant let this beast starve so we need to keep a constant every growing supply of food. Thats where your clover/cover crop comes in. Grow that, chop it down and feed the beast.
I got a bed thats got dirt thats aged 5 years doing this type of grow. I dont do any teas, I dont do any barley, or sst's. I water it, grow cover crop, and mulch. I top dress amendments and EWC a couple times a year. I would order some Jobes Organics Tomato Bloom spikes. They will see you through harvest.

 

[Hollatchaboy]

I use bas craft blend also, and I really like it. I get their ewc also. Get grokashi. When you get bigger pots (you will eventually, trust me... lol) get earth worms. They help break everything down and pull it into the soil. I use malted barley straw for mulch. Helps build mycelium.

 

[Northwood]

Second, we need to have 2 levels in a bed, Soil and mulch.

That made me think about the soil in my bed/pot and the changes I've seen over time. I have 3 levels now. If I remove the mulch and half-eaten decaying matter, there is a very dark granular kinda layer that the cannabis roots really love getting into later in my cycles. The younger red wigglers seem to be most common in that layer. It's gradually become about 4" thick between the mulch and soil , and has no resemblance to peat moss at all.

 

[m4s73r]

That made me think about the soil in my bed/pot and the changes I've seen over time. I have 3 levels now. If I remove the mulch and half-eaten decaying matter, there is a very dark granular kinda layer that the cannabis roots really love getting into later in my cycles. The younger red wigglers seem to be most common in that layer. It's gradually become about 4" thick between the mulch and soil , and has no resemblance to peat moss at all.

Interesting. didnt really experiance that in my 25 gallon pots. Unless that just worm castings? granular makes me think EWCs? And it could be that with a long time, worms would compost that much into castings. LOL. That would be interesting to find...Ever had it tested?

 

[Northwood]

Interesting. didnt really experiance that in my 25 gallon pots. Unless that just worm castings? granular makes me think EWCs? And it could be that with a long time, worms would compost that much into castings. LOL. That would be interesting to find...Ever had it tested?

I have worms making castings in the basement to be used for outdoor veggie garden, and its texture when wet is like paste and will adversely affect drainage if I overdo it or don't mix liberally with garden mineral soil. I only added my worm castings when originally formulating my no-till indoor setup; mainly as an inoculant.

In my indoor grow, that middle layer keeps its granular porous texture even when swimming in wetness. I top water only BTW, and this layer drains much better than peat moss. I think it's likely that every molecule of initial grow medium in my pot has gone through a worm's body at one point or another. I also have european night crawlers in there and also regular garden worms collected from the garden outdoors. Although my initial base mix had at least 20% coarse perlite in it, there is no sign of perlite in this layer at all. Everyone complains that perlite will float to the top of their pot with top-watering, but it seems my perlite is sinking to the bottom. I have a theory for this. The perlite is too large to fit into the worm's body, so as the worms travel around, they deposit castings in the upper soil horizon where the food mostly is. So the perlite isn't really moving down itself, it's the organic and inorganic particles that are small enough to run through a worm that are being moved upward.

I've also noticed a gradual reduction in the volume of my grow medium. At first I thought this was compaction because peat moss is pretty stable to decay, but I think once peat moss is pH buffered and processed by worms that move bacteria and nutrients around it becomes more palatable to microorganisms. Yet my drainage has improved from year-to-year, even with top-applied additions of clay (calcium bentonite) after each grow cycle. I know this sounds a bit ironic, but I think the addition of clay has helped drainage.

Here is my hypothesis:

My original intent with bentonite was to increase cation exchange capacity due to the physical properties of the clay itself. I think it's done much more than that. I believe the structure of that granular black layer is due to macro-aggregation. And you can't have macro aggregation without micro-aggregation first. Micro-aggregation happens when microorganisms glue microscopic mineral particles together with "glue" and also bind decayed organic matter into these structures. I don't think aggregation would happen as quickly without a stable component that can act as a "seed", much like how a pearl forms around a grain of sand in a clam. I think that's where the bentonite comes into play here. I've never seen aggregates like this in years-old compost piles outdoors, only under the compost pile starting where the compost (or what people might term "humus") meets the mineral soil. This is why I think the mineral component is important for aggregate formation. The NDSU provides the following definition of soil aggregates:

(1) Microaggregates are silt and clay particles tightly bound by organic materials. This providers a long-term pool for organic matter.

Breakdown Timeframe: decades/centuries

(2) Macroaggregates are a collection of silt/clay particles, microaggregates, and organic matter. Plant roots, mycorrhizae and earthworms are major contributors to the formation of macroaggregates. These larger aggregates have a shorter breakdown time, providing a organic matter source for roots, bacteria, and fungi.

Breakdown Timeframe: 1-10 years

Link Here

The success of soil restoration efforts is often measured by the degree of aggregation that occurs in soil over time. The fact that carbon can be locked away for centuries in microaggregates provides long term carbon sequestration as well. Soil aggregates are very sensitive to mechanical disturbance such as tillage and plowing which is why conventional agriculture has resulted in a loss of stable soil carbon, a loss of soil tilth/friability, and susceptible to compaction with all the drainage issues it causes - not to mention a reduction in CEC. It is the loss of soil aggregates that have necessitated the need for soil restoration in the first place. There has been a lot published in the scientific literature on the topic, including this one: Impact of Restoration and Management on Aggregation and Organic Carbon Accumulation in Urban Grasslands

So when people talk about "building soil", this is what I think of and to me it's a process that takes years and it's not something anyone can duplicate by just mixing things together for their initial grow medium. Because we can maintain optimal year-round temperatures and moisture, it makes sense to me that this can happen more quickly indoors though than outside in temperate climates with seasons and wet/dry cycles. Aggregation is a process that is dependent on biological activity after all.

I've become curious about the process of aggregate formation. The "glue" secreted by bacteria and other organisms are made up of exopolysaccharides (EPS): https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2018.01636/full It takes considerable energy for microorganisms to produce EPS, and that paper goes into the functions and benefits it provides in return for this energy expenditure.

I guess it would be possible to get my soil tested for EPS, but the cost would be rather prohibitive for a 4-plant recreational grow. But it would test my hypothesis if I did. I doubt this soil layer has many free nutrient ions that could be extracted and measured with a standard soil test (esp. N), so I doubt that would provide me with much useful information by itself.

Yes, I know this is probably a bit much for a thread entitled "First timer organic grow questions" Lol

 

[m4s73r]

I have worms making castings in the basement to be used for outdoor veggie garden, and its texture when wet is like paste and will adversely affect drainage if I overdo it or don't mix liberally with garden mineral soil. I only added my worm castings when originally formulating my no-till indoor setup; mainly as an inoculant.

In my indoor grow, that middle layer keeps its granular porous texture even when swimming in wetness. I top water only BTW, and this layer drains much better than peat moss. I think it's likely that every molecule of initial grow medium in my pot has gone through a worm's body at one point or another. I also have european night crawlers in there and also regular garden worms collected from the garden outdoors. Although my initial base mix had at least 20% coarse perlite in it, there is no sign of perlite in this layer at all. Everyone complains that perlite will float to the top of their pot with top-watering, but it seems my perlite is sinking to the bottom. I have a theory for this. The perlite is too large to fit into the worm's body, so as the worms travel around, they deposit castings in the upper soil horizon where the food mostly is. So the perlite isn't really moving down itself, it's the organic and inorganic particles that are small enough to run through a worm that are being moved upward.

I've also noticed a gradual reduction in the volume of my grow medium. At first I thought this was compaction because peat moss is pretty stable to decay, but I think once peat moss is pH buffered and processed by worms that move bacteria and nutrients around it becomes more palatable to microorganisms. Yet my drainage has improved from year-to-year, even with top-applied additions of clay (calcium bentonite) after each grow cycle. I know this sounds a bit ironic, but I think the addition of clay has helped drainage.

Here is my hypothesis:

My original intent with bentonite was to increase cation exchange capacity due to the physical properties of the clay itself. I think it's done much more than that. I believe the structure of that granular black layer is due to macro-aggregation. And you can't have macro aggregation without micro-aggregation first. Micro-aggregation happens when microorganisms glue microscopic mineral particles together with "glue" and also bind decayed organic matter into these structures. I don't think aggregation would happen as quickly without a stable component that can act as a "seed", much like how a pearl forms around a grain of sand in a clam. I think that's where the bentonite comes into play here. I've never seen aggregates like this in years-old compost piles outdoors, only under the compost pile starting where the compost (or what people might term "humus") meets the mineral soil. This is why I think the mineral component is important for aggregate formation. The NDSU provides the following definition of soil aggregates:

Link Here

The success of soil restoration efforts is often measured by the degree of aggregation that occurs in soil over time. The fact that carbon can be locked away for centuries in microaggregates provides long term carbon sequestration as well. Soil aggregates are very sensitive to mechanical disturbance such as tillage and plowing which is why conventional agriculture has resulted in a loss of stable soil carbon, a loss of soil tilth/friability, and susceptible to compaction with all the drainage issues it causes - not to mention a reduction in CEC. It is the loss of soil aggregates that have necessitated the need for soil restoration in the first place. There has been a lot published in the scientific literature on the topic, including this one: Impact of Restoration and Management on Aggregation and Organic Carbon Accumulation in Urban Grasslands

So when people talk about "building soil", this is what I think of and to me it's a process that takes years and it's not something anyone can duplicate by just mixing things together for their initial grow medium. Because we can maintain optimal year-round temperatures and moisture, it makes sense to me that this can happen more quickly indoors though than outside in temperate climates with seasons and wet/dry cycles. Aggregation is a process that is dependent on biological activity after all.

I've become curious about the process of aggregate formation. The "glue" secreted by bacteria and other organisms are made up of exopolysaccharides (EPS): https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2018.01636/full It takes considerable energy for microorganisms to produce EPS, and that paper goes into the functions and benefits it provides in return for this energy expenditure.

I guess it would be possible to get my soil tested for EPS, but the cost would be rather prohibitive for a 4-plant recreational grow. But it would test my hypothesis if I did. I doubt this soil layer has many free nutrient ions that could be extracted and measured with a standard soil test (esp. N), so I doubt that would provide me with much useful information by itself.

Yes, I know this is probably a bit much for a thread entitled "First timer organic grow questions" Lol

Nice read. I think one aspect to look at as well is your mulching. I dont ever see perlite either, but thats cause its all buried under the mulch. Interesting idea on the Benzonite for increasing cation exchange. If you look into the Horizonal method, Leighton Morrison talks about soil horizons in the natural earth. Clay being a big one.
I add vermiculite to my soil mixes for this very reason. Increases cation exchange, holds a lot of water and is good for aeration. If a wet gallon of clay didn't weight 50 lbs clay would be the thing to have in the bottom of a bed.
Now that you told me that your layer stays granular even when wet, mineral makes more sense. Kinda think of it like adding parm cheese to mozzarella. Make it crumbly even when its super hot.

I think were even starting to see more discouragment from tilling in general. I keep seeing no till popping up all over in the gardening world. No-till is gettng back to a more natural way of growing. When it comes to soil building though I dont know that it takes years. I mean build to what you want to achieve. Mixing yoru soil is building a rope bridge. Over time you can get to a fancy covered bridge.
And yes, this was proly a bit much for this thread.

 

[Unclebilly]

Great advice here so far!
I don’t have much to add except...
Sometimes I first run “coots” soil mixes I find nutrient availability to be lower then subsequent runs with recycled soils.

on first run pots I like to top dress nutrients right away. Use your kelp,crab, and neem. Something like 1/2 teas. Per gallon soil. Then cover with 1/2 inch ewc. Then your mulch layer orstraw.

my theory is pretty simple. Add mynutrients fornext cycle, but adding it this cycle so some % of it breaks down from the top. Supplementing nutrients value in the soil itself.

I always stay one cycle ahead.Thinking on the molecular level of breakdown. Even if your peice of crab shell is”dissolved” that doesn’t mean the plant has gotten close to taking all the nutrients out of that peice. It’s stuck in limbo working with the micro herd over long periods of time to become depleted.

good luck stick with it! Ditch the fabrics next run. And close the gap on top of containers with the mulch or something to act as moisture lock.

Would you use the same soil, maybe reammend it for next run? I’m thinking at least 15-20 gallon pots for next run. And I should probably mix them up and cover crop them now to get the life cycle going early

 

[Unclebilly]

Damn! Information overload.. I’m trying to digest it and research all the points mentioned. I love the knowledge that floats around this forum. This is my very first grow and I’m trying to keep it organic and free of bottled nutrients. But I’m getting worried about these things still drooping on the new growth after 3 days. What immediate intervention should I consider? I will be mulching. But does this look like a nutrient deficiency? I guess I don’t know when they will be “hungry” or when they would deplete the soil of the nutrients. I should have used way bigger pots looking back

 

[m4s73r]

drop a pic, what do you mean by drooping?

 

[Hollatchaboy]

Damn! Information overload.. I’m trying to digest it and research all the points mentioned. I love the knowledge that floats around this forum. This is my very first grow and I’m trying to keep it organic and free of bottled nutrients. But I’m getting worried about these things still drooping on the new growth after 3 days. What immediate intervention should I consider? I will be mulching. But does this look like a nutrient deficiency? I guess I don’t know when they will be “hungry” or when they would deplete the soil of the nutrients. I should have used way bigger pots looking back

Bigger pots take longer to deplete. Smaller pots require top dressing more often.

 

[Hollatchaboy]

drop a pic, what do you mean by drooping?

First post

 

[Hollatchaboy]

Damn! Information overload.. I’m trying to digest it and research all the points mentioned. I love the knowledge that floats around this forum. This is my very first grow and I’m trying to keep it organic and free of bottled nutrients. But I’m getting worried about these things still drooping on the new growth after 3 days. What immediate intervention should I consider? I will be mulching. But does this look like a nutrient deficiency? I guess I don’t know when they will be “hungry” or when they would deplete the soil of the nutrients. I should have used way bigger pots looking back

Do they droop like that steady? Or like at lights on?