What is this...Can't seem to solve the problem
- Thread starter Iricana
- Start date
hotrodharley
Well-Known Member
Whew. What is your starting EC? Looks cooked. Calcium deficiency however. Probably phosphorus deficiency as well.
OldMedUser
Well-Known Member
Look burned. What's with the open space at the top of the net pots? Should have them filled to overflowing with the balls or wrap some electrical tape around the top 3" of the net pots to block the light from causing algae blooms in the tank. All my net pots have solid plastic at the tops for the first couple inches.
With plants that small your EC should be around 1.0 - 1.2 max.
What do the roots look like?
With plants that small your EC should be around 1.0 - 1.2 max.
What do the roots look like?
hotrodharley
Well-Known Member
Definitely and a high EC can cause lockout from one or more of elements in the solution.
OldMedUser
Well-Known Member
If the nutes are in proper balance it shouldn't cause lockouts but when EC is too high will cause all sorts of symptoms while it fries the plants. Too high EC during veg leads to toxic salts buildup about half way thru flower that really fucks up the buds. Snap, crackle and pop are not just for rice krispies. lol
His plant looks nice and healthy on top tho so I'd water down the mix and soldier on.
hotrodharley
Well-Known Member
Check Mulder's wheel. Check what nitrogen blocks. Nitrogen is the element most quickly taken up. Nitrogen in excess blocks phosphorus and copper. Nitrogen is also the element most quickly depleted. If you just cut back on it all you should be okay.
OldMedUser
Well-Known Member
But that chart is to show what gets screwed up when one is out of sync with the other. When using decent bottled nutes everything should be in balance even when the EC is way too high so the chart is of no use for that. If you are doing something like adding too much of say, epsom salts then the Mg is going to end up out of balance and blocking Ca and K but you have to use a lot to screw it up badly enough to show on the leaves. They don't even list sulphur on that chart and it's the 'secret' ingredient in most bud boosters that really helps in later flowering to pack on the resin. I use MSM, (methylsulfonylmethane, an organic form of S that is used as a dietary supplement for joint pain and just to get more sulphur in your body), as a lone sulphur source sometimes in late flower along with some potassium chloride for the needed extra K. Bought a 1lb bag of it at a health food store years ago for $24.
I read something recently that when your plants are praying to the light that they are in need of more Mg so will try dosing with epsom salts when I see that happen to see if that praying stops.
Learn something new every day growing this plant. Helps keep the oldtimerz disease at bay.
hotrodharley
Well-Known Member
Any thoughts that the plant takes up every element at the same time is sorely mistaken. In a solution with nitrogen the nitrogen is quickly absorbed while some elements are still in suspension. This might be difficult to understand if you've never taken chemistry.
OldMedUser
Well-Known Member
Plant chemistry is a branch. (
), all it's own tho. I went back to school in my 30s for 3 years to get a university level diploma in environmental chemistry tho that was 30 years ago so I've forgotten most of it. I was a lot better at the hands on stuff in the lab than the theory and higher level stuff. Labs were 40% of the total marks and saved my ass in a couple of classes. Would have got 2 years uni credit if I had of went for higher degrees or even a PhD but life got in the way of that.
hotrodharley
Well-Known Member
In a solution of nutrients the nitrogen is what the plant will take up immediately. The higher the EC the more nitrogen. And it won't stop until it's all absorbed. Everything else comes after nitrogen. Therefore it's pretty safe to assume that the high nitrogen is the cause of a phosphorus deficiency even when phosphorus is available.
OldMedUser
Well-Known Member
I'm not really convinced that's the case. I've done way more research into how our favourite plant grows in the last 40+ than most people and never read anything that says that specifically. I know urea N can do that but is limited in most preparations just for that reason.
This is why I'm just getting into a semi-organic type of growing. Did about 50 DWC grows because I did so poorly in real dirt and still use ProMix HP for my base but add a variety of organics to it and the plants seem happier than ever most of the time with very little intervention on my part. As long as everything is in there they do really well.
I see a lot of toxic salts buildup problems on here because think if some is good then more is better and fry their plants. Not enough to cause immediate burning that they would notice but everything starts going to shit about mid-flower and then it's too late to fix it. Or they get something happening to one or two leaves then get advice that's totally wrong and end up causing real problems.
Back to the basics is where I'm headed and tho my yields may not impress I grow way more than I can use so make a lot of friends happy with free bud but mostly the medicines I make it into.
Kushash
Well-Known Member
I saw the mg statement also and I know where we read it, from a highly respected and intelligent member. I almost asked him for links to see where the idea came from. It is probably a trait in some plants to pray when needing mg but I wonder why my plants appear to be healthiest when praying, showing no other signs of mg deficiency that I can see. We all know members that feel their plants are heathy when praying so as much as I respect his knowledge I do question if that statement is true for indoor grown cannabis plants like the one below.But that chart is to show what gets screwed up when one is out of sync with the other. When using decent bottled nutes everything should be in balance even when the EC is way too high so the chart is of no use for that. If you are doing something like adding too much of say, epsom salts then the Mg is going to end up out of balance and blocking Ca and K but you have to use a lot to screw it up badly enough to show on the leaves. They don't even list sulphur on that chart and it's the 'secret' ingredient in most bud boosters that really helps in later flowering to pack on the resin. I use MSM, (methylsulfonylmethane, an organic form of S that is used as a dietary supplement for joint pain and just to get more sulphur in your body), as a lone sulphur source sometimes in late flower along with some potassium chloride for the needed extra K. Bought a 1lb bag of it at a health food store years ago for $24.
I read something recently that when your plants are praying to the light that they are in need of more Mg so will try dosing with epsom salts when I see that happen to see if that praying stops.
Learn something new every day growing this plant. Helps keep the oldtimerz disease at bay.
This was last grow. Might be a mg deficiency but it sure is fun to look at
.Happy Growing!
hotrodharley
Well-Known Member
Okay. What's the first sign pictures on here show for excess? Nitrogen. From leaf shape to dark green to tip blanche. True or no?I'm not really convinced that's the case. I've done way more research into how our favourite plant grows in the last 40+ than most people and never read anything that says that specifically. I know urea N can do that but is limited in most preparations just for that reason.
This is why I'm just getting into a semi-organic type of growing. Did about 50 DWC grows because I did so poorly in real dirt and still use ProMix HP for my base but add a variety of organics to it and the plants seem happier than ever most of the time with very little intervention on my part. As long as everything is in there they do really well.
I see a lot of toxic salts buildup problems on here because think if some is good then more is better and fry their plants. Not enough to cause immediate burning that they would notice but everything starts going to shit about mid-flower and then it's too late to fix it. Or they get something happening to one or two leaves then get advice that's totally wrong and end up causing real problems.
Back to the basics is where I'm headed and tho my yields may not impress I grow way more than I can use so make a lot of friends happy with free bud but mostly the medicines I make it into.
hotrodharley
Well-Known Member
Nitrogen is quickly taken up because it's key to the production of chlorophyll. Period. The plant can take up large amounts in exess before toxicity appears. Chlorophyll in photosynthesis. Absolutely necessary.
"The most important chemicals that plants need, without which they won't thrive, are the three macronutrients: potassium, nitrogen and phosphorus. The reason for this is that the basic building blocks of every plant are ATP, cell membranes and amino acids. Nitrogen is an element in every amino acid; ATP, which is the primary source of energy for all cells, contains phosphorus. Potassium is essential to a plant's ability to metabolize. This element also comprises up to two percent of a plant's weight."
So again which element is taken up most quickly? Nitrogen because it's the one most needed. Not surprising when atmosphere contains 78% nitrogen. It's abundance is utilized.
"Primary nutrients, also known as macronutrients, are those usually required in the largest amounts. They are carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and potassium. Secondary nutrients are those usually needed in moderate amounts compared to the primary essential nutrients. The secondary nutrients are calcium, magnesium, and sulfur."
And with that I'm out. I'm not good at arguing with fenceposts.
"The most important chemicals that plants need, without which they won't thrive, are the three macronutrients: potassium, nitrogen and phosphorus. The reason for this is that the basic building blocks of every plant are ATP, cell membranes and amino acids. Nitrogen is an element in every amino acid; ATP, which is the primary source of energy for all cells, contains phosphorus. Potassium is essential to a plant's ability to metabolize. This element also comprises up to two percent of a plant's weight."
So again which element is taken up most quickly? Nitrogen because it's the one most needed. Not surprising when atmosphere contains 78% nitrogen. It's abundance is utilized.
"Primary nutrients, also known as macronutrients, are those usually required in the largest amounts. They are carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and potassium. Secondary nutrients are those usually needed in moderate amounts compared to the primary essential nutrients. The secondary nutrients are calcium, magnesium, and sulfur."
And with that I'm out. I'm not good at arguing with fenceposts.
hotrodharley
Well-Known Member
I lied like a motherfucker. I'm back with one more bit.
"Nitrogen is considered to be the most important nutrient, and plants absorb more nitrogen than any other element. Nitrogen is essential to in making sure plants are healthy as they develop and nutritious to eat after they’re harvested. That’s because nitrogen is essential in the formation of protein, and protein makes up much of the tissues of most living things. Below is a picture of corn that is nitrogen deficient."
It's an ear of corn and I'm sure some halfwit will bring that up. Maybe Spiderfarmer or Mars can reward that fool with a swift kick in the ass.
https://www.tfi.org/the-feed/fertilizer-101-big-3-nitrogen-phosphorus-and-potassium
Of course it's only the fertilizer institute but what would they know about anything?
"Nitrogen is considered to be the most important nutrient, and plants absorb more nitrogen than any other element. Nitrogen is essential to in making sure plants are healthy as they develop and nutritious to eat after they’re harvested. That’s because nitrogen is essential in the formation of protein, and protein makes up much of the tissues of most living things. Below is a picture of corn that is nitrogen deficient."
It's an ear of corn and I'm sure some halfwit will bring that up. Maybe Spiderfarmer or Mars can reward that fool with a swift kick in the ass.
https://www.tfi.org/the-feed/fertilizer-101-big-3-nitrogen-phosphorus-and-potassium
Of course it's only the fertilizer institute but what would they know about anything?
OldMedUser
Well-Known Member
I saw the mg statement also and I know where we read it, from a highly respected and intelligent member. I almost asked him for links to see where the idea came from. It is probably a trait in some plants to pray when needing mg but I wonder why my plants appear to be healthiest when praying, showing no other signs of mg deficiency that I can see. We all know members that feel their plants are heathy when praying so as much as I respect his knowledge I do question if that statement is true for indoor grown cannabis plants like the one below.
This was last grow. Might be a mg deficiency but it sure is fun to look at
Happy Growing!
View attachment 5049397
I've always considered it a sign of good plant health myself and low Mg shows up in the older leaves first as it's a mobile nutrient. They grow fast as hell when they're like that too. Next time I see it tho I'll toss in some epsom and see what happens.
Iricana
Member
Wow, that's good to know, thank you! I never had any reason to do that but something is def different with this system. Roots are perfectly white, no isuue's at all.Look burned. What's with the open space at the top of the net pots? Should have them filled to overflowing with the balls or wrap some electrical tape around the top 3" of the net pots to block the light from causing algae blooms in the tank. All my net pots have solid plastic at the tops for the first couple inches.
With plants that small your EC should be around 1.0 - 1.2 max.
What do the roots look like?
OldMedUser
Well-Known Member
I'm not trying to argue the point. Excess Mg causes dark green foliage all over where excess N causes the lower leaves to darken first so when all the top leaves are dark green which is it? Excess nutes in general will sometimes cause very dark green foliage.
The plants will not necessarily take up more N or any nute just because it's in abundance but if you have lots of N and are lower than needed in others then you got problems.
What does atmospheric nitrogen have to do with anything? Pot doesn't absorb N from the air to grow just CO2. The C is used to build plant material and the O2 is discarded.
If you're not up to discussion without getting all butthurt and resorting to name calling then it is best you drop out. It's well noted that you consider anyone's opinions that don't match yours to be wrong but you're wrong a lot more than you would admit even to yourself.
You have a Merry Xmas.
OldMedUser
Well-Known Member
Good to hear. Problems with the roots often first appear as what looks like deficiency issues in the foliage.
I think it's your EC is too high so I would remove a portion of your nutes, like 25% or so, and top up with water to lower it.