Should the US shed blood for Ukraine

Should the USA along with NATO defend Ukraine with troops.

  • Yes

    Votes: 40 40.4%
  • No

    Votes: 59 59.6%

  • Total voters
    99

zeddd

Well-Known Member
I still don't get it.
What the fuck is Putin's end game.?
What the fuck could possibly be worth the cost of his war?
Anyone got any ideas?
I think there is only one thing that makes sense to me.
He's a fucking deranged psychopath
He really is.
Then it makes sense

Where the fuck does Russia find all these dicks?
One dick after another since the Revolution, but this boyo is on his way to making Stalin seem OK.
That is terrifying.
Yeah I got one. Putin is terminally ill and wants to take out as many people as he can by starting a nuclear war. Boris is leading the charge against Putin cos it’s a distraction from “partygate” meaning that Britain gets nuked by next week.
Once that happens US gets to nuke the fuck out of China Iran and N Korea. The whole world gets burnt, but the oligarchs survive in their underground bases for a few months.
This is only just warming up
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
I also think Ukraine's only dog in this fight, is to stay in as many rounds as it can hoping the rest of the world comes to its aid properly, as I don;t think dickhead is going to capitulate.
I think it’ll be a long wait. The best outcome is Putin’s own people turn on him before Ukraine’s people’s are slaughtered and the countries infastructure ruined.
 

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
Yes where there is a will, there is a way. So after Russia conquered all of Ukraine, we can conclude Putin succeeded because a lack of will in the west. The west is scared of WW3, scared of Putin’s nukes and damage to their own economies or worse. Which they probably should be, but if that’s the case, is it not really dumb to let him expand his territory by taking Ukraine? More space to park nukes, just like Belarus. Will letting Putin take Ukraine actually make it less likely we’ll end up fighting Russia anyway?

Putin just said any country trying to impose no-fly zone will be considered participating in the conflict, also oil sanctions = war declaration. Uhm… Russian president, fuck off?

Anyway, this is a must-read:

To put the current state of international affairs in the most terribly brutal realpolitik terms: Is Ukraine worth the possibility of involving the United States and Russia, two nuclear powers that could destroy human life on earth, in a shooting war? And are the risks to their citizens and the world worth keeping Putin out of Ukraine?

These questions do not consider the morality of allowing a smaller country to be swallowed by a larger one, or a democratic one to be crushed by an authoritarian one. But that is the whole point of realpolitik.


Also interesting is the part where the author suggests Biden signalled his adversery how far he can’t and thus can go by saying he won’t send in troops. If it’s already decided Putin can take Ukraine without interference of the only one (NATO) who could stop him, the blue-yellow structures all over the world are even more nauseating. The eagerness and record breaking fast decisions of the EU to send weapons is fueled by the idea Ukrainians can buy them time, not because they believe the Ukraine can win.

Realpolitik works on the assumption both sides are rational, which Putin doesn’t seem to be. How crazy must Putin act before we stop hiding behind one-directional rationality and do the right thing.
It def. leaves a guilty conscience,no doubt,from here on out FK it,no more bending for Russia,time to call the bluff FK it,guaranteed this performance by Russia's military ,I'm sure the US and NATO are supremely confident of a major ass kicking in any conventional conflict, then it's up to them, I know we don't want to conquer Russian territory and am sure the West would show some mercy in victory,then the BIG question will be answered for humanity,do we have the utter recklessness to engage in thermonuclear exchange,will missile silo officers, SSBN captains,Bomber pilots,in Russia actually follow orders,the question has been asked,debated,pondered since 1949 when the USSR joined the club????????????????
 

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
I've read reports saying US officials were surprised at how well Ukraine's defense forces have held up. So, yeah, the US decided ahead of time that Ukraine was not worth risking nuclear war by directly engaging the fight on Ukrainian soil.

Biden has said the US will not send troops or our own pilots into Ukraine. Is he willing to watch the democracy of Ukraine die under a Russian invasion? From what he is saying, one would conclude he is. Before the invasion, the US sent 2 billion dollars worth of defense hardware and I just finished listening to Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby's news briefing from yesterday. He said they are communicating with Ukraine's defense officials, taking orders and filling them with urgent speed.

Why is this all about the US? I don't think there is anything that would stop an EU country from unilaterally sending their own. Is there? Article 5 would still be in place so, there would have to be some sort of agreement to avoid dragging the alliance into it should Russia retaliate. But hey, France or Germany, you wear big boy pants too.
I hear ya, any country w/50 modern fighters could lay a ass whipping on them from what I've seen, I don't mean to dismiss the bravery that Russian soldier's have shown in the past,and where your heart lays plays a large role in fighting spirit (mother Russia is not on the line here),but man they are poorly led,communications logistics,just Russian doctrine in general seems frozen in time. Every Western officer will tell you everything depends upon your NCO's(sergeants),they are the glue through their exp. that makes it all work,your25-35 yr. olds w/5-10 yrs of service and it's obvious Russia lacks in that capacity as well.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
It def. leaves a guilty conscience,no doubt,from here on out FK it,no more bending for Russia,time to call the bluff FK it,guaranteed this performance by Russia's military ,I'm sure the US and NATO are supremely confident of a major ass kicking in any conventional conflict, then it's up to them, I know we don't want to conquer Russian territory and am sure the West would show some mercy in victory,then the BIG question will be answered for humanity,do we have the utter recklessness to engage in thermonuclear exchange,will missile silo officers, SSBN captains,Bomber pilots,in Russia actually follow orders,the question has been asked,debated,pondered since 1949 when the USSR joined the club????????????????
And would you be willing to risk a full out nuclear war? I’m not and hope no one is. Guilty? I don’t feel guilt, I think that’s the wrong word. I feel ashamed that the world has not evolved beyond this, but not guilty. I feel deep sorrow for everyone that suffers for some stupid bullshit but not guilty. It is the Russian people/military that should feel guilty. IMO it’s on them at this point.
 

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
And would you be willing to risk a full out nuclear war? I’m not and hope no one is. Guilty? I don’t feel guilt, I think that’s the wrong word. I feel ashamed that the world has not evolved beyond this, but not guilty. I feel deep sorrow for everyone that suffers for some stupid bullshit but not guilty. It is the Russian people/military that should feel guilty. IMO it’s on them at this point.
Guilty,that we had to watch Ukraine,slaughtered by a unprovoked attack without being able to stop it,I should have said helpless as a better term,but something grabs my soul at seeing dead civilians and the lives turned upside down of innocent people,If ANY NATO countries are attacked by Russia then we have to risk nuclear war,or the NATO alliance is meaningless,THAT was my point from here on out,obviously, Ukraine tragically was on their own but if I was a Ukranian who was savagely attacked and laid seige to WW2 style I'd be wondering how the world could let this carnage happen,and it is agonizing to watch, and if Putin recklessly has appetite for more after Ukraine the West can't let the threat of nukes cower us,otherwise where does it stop. But yes,I should have said helpless,but the feeling of not being able to do the right thing for these people as their country is destroyed by blunt Russian force Stalingrad style is very haunting.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
And would you be willing to risk a full out nuclear war? I’m not and hope no one is. Guilty? I don’t feel guilt, I think that’s the wrong word. I feel ashamed that the world has not evolved beyond this, but not guilty. I feel deep sorrow for everyone that suffers for some stupid bullshit but not guilty. It is the Russian people/military that should feel guilty. IMO it’s on them at this point.
This is a classic proxy war now and we have fought many with the Soviets/Russians, we all know the rules. We supply the weapons, aid, intelligence and advice, the Ukrainians supply the grit, determination and sacrifice and the Russians provide meat for the grinder and lot's of cash for war, that they don't have.

Vlad has got his cock caught in the meat grinder and it's sucking him in, he's flailing around in desperation and we should just let him twist in the wind for a spell. The only way to "negotiate" with Vlad is to have his nuts in one hand and a knife at his throat in the other. Well we've got him by the nuts and the weapons are flowing in to willing hands across borders that he failed to secure, while he focused on decimating cities in the east with his weak Mussolini like army. The entire western half of the country is free and it will be hard for the Russians to take it in a few weeks. The well armed Ukrainian partisans will devastate their supplies behind the lines. Only a third of their army are combat troops, the rest are vulnerable logistical support in extremely hostile territory. The Russians as yet have no secure lines and are wide open, the CIA is drooling at the possibilities, after they stop dancing and freaking trying to get everything they can into Ukraine. Vlad is fucked, it's just a question of time.
 

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
This is a classic proxy war now and we have fought many with the Soviets/Russians, we all know the rules. We supply the weapons, aid, intelligence and advice, the Ukrainians supply the grit, determination and sacrifice and the Russians provide meat for the grinder and lot's of cash for war, that they don't have.

Vlad has got his cock caught in the meat grinder and it's sucking him in, he's flailing around in desperation and we should just let him twist in the wind for a spell. The only way to "negotiate" with Vlad is to have his nuts in one hand and a knife at his throat in the other. Well we've got him by the nuts and the weapons are flowing in to willing hands across borders that he failed to secure, while he focused on decimating cities in the east with his weak Mussolini like army. The entire western half of the country is free and it will be hard for the Russians to take it in a few weeks. The well armed Ukrainian partisans will devastate their supplies behind the lines. Only a third of their army are combat troops, the rest are vulnerable logistical support in extremely hostile territory. The Russians as yet have no secure lines and are wide open, the CIA is drooling at the possibilities, after they stop dancing and freaking trying to get everything they can into Ukraine. Vlad is fucked, it's just a question of time.
I just hope somebody is there to stop him or disregard his orders if he is evil enough to say" FK it I loose everyone looses",do you think the Russian equivalent of Gen Miley is reassuring him as he did for China when Mr, Orange was melting down,hope so,but Russian communication as evidenced by this military campaign does not seem to be a strength.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I just hope somebody is there to stop him or disregard his orders if he is evil enough to say" FK it I loose everyone looses",do you think the Russian equivalent of Gen Miley is reassuring him as he did for China when Mr, Orange was melting down,hope so,but Russian communication as evidenced by this military campaign does not seem to be a strength.
The Russian military know the power and certainty of the NATO response, we might kill all their subs before launch and hammer their ICBM sites, perhaps not too many of those 6000 nukes will get off the ground, most are tactical nukes. On the other hand, just one American boomer sub can eliminate Russia entirely, there are several and the UK and France have them too, then there is all the other shit they face from 3 different NATO members!

Hopefully those in the know see the light, I figure Russia has a defensive arsenal that nobody wants to fuck with for good reason, but they don't posses the kind of power NATO does for a first strike. America also has stealth cruse missiles that carry nukes too and they would be first to go on critical military targets and their nukes. We can strike them first effectively if we wished, but just a few loose nukes make it unthinkable for even the biggest hawk.
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
The Russian military know the power and certainty of the NATO response, we might kill all their subs before launch and hammer their ICBM sites, perhaps not too many of those 6000 nukes will get off the ground, most are tactical nukes. On the other hand, just one American boomer sub can eliminate Russia entirely, there are several and the UK and France have them too, then there is all the other shit they face from 3 different NATO members!

Hopefully those in the know see the light, I figure Russia has a defensive arsenal that nobody wants to fuck with for good reason, but they don't posses the kind of power NATO does for a first strike. America also has stealth cruse missiles that carry nukes too and they would be first to go on critical military targets and their nukes. We can strike them first effectively if we wished, but just a few loose nukes make it unthinkable for even the biggest hawk.
doesnt really matter how you envision it in your delusional mind but when WW3 happens with all the A/B/C set loose nobody wins.
We live in one ecosphere
 

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
The Russian military know the power and certainty of the NATO response, we might kill all their subs before launch and hammer their ICBM sites, perhaps not too many of those 6000 nukes will get off the ground, most are tactical nukes. On the other hand, just one American boomer sub can eliminate Russia entirely, there are several and the UK and France have them too, then there is all the other shit they face from 3 different NATO members!

Hopefully those in the know see the light, I figure Russia has a defensive arsenal that nobody wants to fuck with for good reason, but they don't posses the kind of power NATO does for a first strike. America also has stealth cruse missiles that carry nukes too and they would be first to go on critical military targets and their nukes. We can strike them first effectively if we wished, but just a few loose nukes make it unthinkable for even the biggest hawk.
Intercontinental "Tactical" Nukes?

srsly?
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
doesnt really matter how you envision it in your delusional mind but when WW3 happens with all the A/B/C set loose nobody wins.
We live in one ecosphere
We do and everybody lives in delusion to one degree or another. I'm just assessing the situation in the light of past experience. Past performance is the best predictor of future behavior and people like Vlad must be dealt with, it is not pleasant and it is very dangerous. Always leave a cornered rat a way out, is an axiom of war. This fight is up to the Ukrainian people and it could not happen without their extraordinary courage and leadership. They might not be perfect, but they are clearly a liberal democracy fighting for their survival, other liberal democracies should support this struggle and they are, all across Europe, this is not just an American effort.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Intercontinental "Tactical" Nukes?

srsly?
Most of the Russian arsenal is tactical and stored, the big boys are another matter and there are probably a couple of thousand of those, with about 500 at sea in subs, we know where they are. I doubt Vlad would use tactical nukes in Ukraine, the only targets are cities and the consequences for him personally might be immediate.
 

ANC

Well-Known Member
it will take 220 nukes to wipe out all life on earth

If I were to pick a target it would be New York, several trillion dollars go through it daily. The world has nothing that compares.
 
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Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Guilty,that we had to watch Ukraine,slaughtered by a unprovoked attack without being able to stop it,I should have said helpless as a better term,but something grabs my soul at seeing dead civilians and the lives turned upside down of innocent people,If ANY NATO countries are attacked by Russia then we have to risk nuclear war,or the NATO alliance is meaningless,THAT was my point from here on out,obviously, Ukraine tragically was on their own but if I was a Ukranian who was savagely attacked and laid seige to WW2 style I'd be wondering how the world could let this carnage happen,and it is agonizing to watch, and if Putin recklessly has appetite for more after Ukraine the West can't let the threat of nukes cower us,otherwise where does it stop. But yes,I should have said helpless,but the feeling of not being able to do the right thing for these people as their country is destroyed by blunt Russian force Stalingrad style is very haunting.
I agree wholeheartedly with everything. Russia has pushed the world to the brink of destruction and if this ever ends without that happening, the world as a whole needs to rethink the situation we have created. Does having nukes a few hundred miles closer then they are now give reason to blow up the whole fucking world? I’m saddened by the whole fucking situation and if given an opertunity would put a fucking bullet right between his eyes, give my kids a big hug, and feel proud to do it. Sadly I’m limited to about 300 yards :(. I guess I could put in some practice ;). May do that today actually. I guess this is exactly the reason why the US and allies work feverishly to keep nukes out of the hands of other fuckwads. My feelings are, as naive as they may be, no one will take it to the next level, but I’m scared as hell right now for my kids. And me? Well it’s better to die in a thermal nuclear fireball then lingering in a hospital I guess :(.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
it will take 220 nukes to wipe out all life on earth

If I were to pick a target it would be New York, several trillion dollars go through it daily. The world has nothing that compares.
I question the number. Many have an exaggerated notion of what nukes can do. 220 of the largest thermonuke tested (Tsar Bomba, 50 Mt; untested dirty version >100 Mt) could kill a billion if laid onto our biggest cities worldwide, but all life on Earth, even at the top of the Cold War there wasn’t enough megatonnage to kill everyone, let alone everything.
 
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