Ron DeSantis isn't Donald Trump -- he's Donald Trump Jr.

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
you can't have a reality based discussion when the people you are discussing deny reality...
I don't see the younger voters today denying reality, I would say that they are more impatient with the way reality (especially things like global climate disasters) has had to consistently take a back burner due to the Regressive obstruction that the Republicans have been conducting for decades.

This shit should and would have been dealt with back in Carter's presidency if it wasn't for them.

and now you're pushing your feels..." I would rather have a reality based discussion. And Biden is competent and in a head to head race will easily handle any of the right wing trolls that will end up winning the Republican primary." You would rather...we aren't talking about ourselves, we're talking about young voters in America, and they don't give a shit what either of us would rather...
Biden is not running for office again until 2024 anyways. All this nonsense is just bullshit at the end of the day.

i'm not attacking Biden the man, or Biden the president, i'm looking at the young voters stated problems with the current administration...if the democrats want a significant percentage of that population to vote for them, they better start listening to at least some of what they say.
And you don't think that they are?

That is the problem with not having a reality based discussion. It ignores all of the legislation and executive orders and appointments that Biden and the Democrats have gotten through to deal with the very real problems that people are upset about.

if you think the republicans are going to allow the debate to go against them without a huge fight and a lot of lies, well, you're smarter than that. they know all the right things to say, they get coached, they have strategist, planners, and speech writers, just like democrats do, except the republican versions are also skilled at disinformation, propaganda, at turning opinions...
democrats are fighting for democracy, republicans are fighting for their lives, and ours too...democrats better learn how to fight dirty...they don't have to participate, but they better learn how to counter that shit or they're fucked, and so is the country
The Republicans are lying spammers who are cheating with their use of foreign trolls pushing their agenda through constant troll spam online and in all the different media (TV/Radio/Print/Internet) in ways that the Democrats are not and really cannot.

And the Democrats keep on winning. Outside of when they were blindsided by the increase in the effectiveness of the microtargetting in 2016 (thanks to Edward Snowden smuggling the NSA data files to Putin to use in their attack on our democracy). I have more faith in the American public* to overcome the brainwashed masses that make a lot more noise than I even had in 2020. Because we keep proving we will overcome the hate that the Republicans are running on.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
I don't see the younger voters today denying reality, I would say that they are more impatient with the way reality (especially things like global climate disasters) has had to consistently take a back burner due to the Regressive obstruction that the Republicans have been conducting for decades.

This shit should and would have been dealt with back in Carter's presidency if it wasn't for them.

Biden is not running for office again until 2024 anyways. All this nonsense is just bullshit at the end of the day.

And you don't think that they are?

That is the problem with not having a reality based discussion. It ignores all of the legislation and executive orders and appointments that Biden and the Democrats have gotten through to deal with the very real problems that people are upset about.


The Republicans are lying spammers who are cheating with their use of foreign trolls pushing their agenda through constant troll spam online and in all the different media (TV/Radio/Print/Internet) in ways that the Democrats are not and really cannot.

And the Democrats keep on winning. Outside of when they were blindsided by the increase in the effectiveness of the microtargetting in 2016 (thanks to Edward Snowden smuggling the NSA data files to Putin to use in their attack on our democracy). I have more faith in the American public* to overcome the brainwashed masses that make a lot more noise than I even had in 2020. Because we keep proving we will overcome the hate that the Republicans are running on.
yup...the republicans suck at everything, that's how they got trump elected, and how they have control of 23 states...and that's also how they stop any legislation they don't like from going through...by being bad at what they do. don't confuse being bad people with being stupid people.
mtg is a fucking moron...ted cruz is a cocksucking prick bastard asshole, but he isn't stupid....boebert is an idiot...mitch mcconnel is a skilled and practiced manipulator with so many connections and so much dirt on people that he's essentially a different species than the freedumb train fools. trump is a crass, ostentatious, lying, cheating, low life criminal fuck...desantis is a motherfucking nazi asshole, but he isn't stupid...
what you and i have faith in isn't what young people have faith in, what we believe doesn't mean a damn thing to them...they have their own issues, and they continue to respond that they don't feel those issues are being addressed...that is the result of poll after poll, and why so many articles are being written about it. many of them have no faith in any government, after seeing what they have achieved so far, the legacy of global warming, pollution, nationalism, repression, and a faltering global economy.
so to them, there is no "good" candidate, or party, there is only the one they think will do the least damage during their lifetimes...
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
yup...the republicans suck at everything, that's how they got trump elected, and how they have control of 23 states...and that's also how they stop any legislation they don't like from going through...by being bad at what they do. don't confuse being bad people with being stupid people.
IMO you are describing the Republicans and their mega donors (like the Koch's) having a decades long plan to attack our democracy (with the illegal help of foreign dictators in 2016).

They were 'smart' in their ability to use all their daddy's money to buy up all the local/national media companies so that they could coordinate their trolling attacks to win key census years so that they were able to redraw their states maps to make sure that they could maintain a lock hold in power.

mtg is a fucking moron...ted cruz is a cocksucking prick bastard asshole, but he isn't stupid....boebert is an idiot...mitch mcconnel is a skilled and practiced manipulator with so many connections and so much dirt on people that he's essentially a different species than the freedumb train fools. trump is a crass, ostentatious, lying, cheating, low life criminal fuck...desantis is a motherfucking nazi asshole, but he isn't stupid...
And they are all in deep red states or districts to be able to be sure that they would maintain their power. This is why we need to focus so much more on voting in census years (and really every single year) and make sure there are great candidates up and down the ticket every election. It is not something that will be fixed in a couple elections, this is always going to be something we need to make sure doesn't happen again.

Trump snuck through after a decades long trolling attack on Clinton with the help of a foreign military's attack on our democracy using the foundation of the hate propaganda that the Republicans worked so long to set up, that we now know about and should be combating by countering all the spam that is designed to nudge people into not voting (if they were not sucked into the hate enough to vote for the Republicans).

what you and i have faith in isn't what young people have faith in, what we believe doesn't mean a damn thing to them...they have their own issues, and they continue to respond that they don't feel those issues are being addressed...that is the result of poll after poll, and why so many articles are being written about it. many of them have no faith in any government, after seeing what they have achieved so far, the legacy of global warming, pollution, nationalism, repression, and a faltering global economy.
so to them, there is no "good" candidate, or party, there is only the one they think will do the least damage during their lifetimes...
"Poll after poll" ask stupid as shit questions designed to sell ads IMO. Ofcourse people will think what they care about is not being addressed when everything being done is drowned out by the nonstop stories/posts/talking heads covering people bitching about everything.

We will see how it goes, but when it comes down to it, aside from people's 'feels' distorting what is actually happening in reality after 4 years of Trump and the Republicans trying like hell to burn the place down, things have gotten far better in the last what year and a half?

One I am in.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
IMO you are describing the Republicans and their mega donors (like the Koch's) having a decades long plan to attack our democracy (with the illegal help of foreign dictators in 2016).

They were 'smart' in their ability to use all their daddy's money to buy up all the local/national media companies so that they could coordinate their trolling attacks to win key census years so that they were able to redraw their states maps to make sure that they could maintain a lock hold in power.

And they are all in deep red states or districts to be able to be sure that they would maintain their power. This is why we need to focus so much more on voting in census years (and really every single year) and make sure there are great candidates up and down the ticket every election. It is not something that will be fixed in a couple elections, this is always going to be something we need to make sure doesn't happen again.

Trump snuck through after a decades long trolling attack on Clinton with the help of a foreign military's attack on our democracy using the foundation of the hate propaganda that the Republicans worked so long to set up, that we now know about and should be combating by countering all the spam that is designed to nudge people into not voting (if they were not sucked into the hate enough to vote for the Republicans).


"Poll after poll" ask stupid as shit questions designed to sell ads IMO. Ofcourse people will think what they care about is not being addressed when everything being done is drowned out by the nonstop stories/posts/talking heads covering people bitching about everything.

We will see how it goes, but when it comes down to it, aside from people's 'feels' distorting what is actually happening in reality after 4 years of Trump and the Republicans trying like hell to burn the place down, things have gotten far better in the last what year and a half?


One I am in.
i am too, i'm in the last year (or would 1965 be the first year?) of gen x...although i feel very little affinity for my fellows...

as to the republicans being "smart"...they chose their path, which is dark, and they move down it accomplishing what they intend to, for the most part...smart or not, they found a way to advance their agenda, and the democrats are bad at countering their tactics.
having the moral highground is a good thing, right up until they bury you on it. the democrats have to get some good spin people, some good pr people, and listen to them. they don't have to sell their souls to win, but they may need to take out a few temporary mortgages...hire some good reputable investigators to look into a lot of stories...did boebert trade a weekend of sex for ted cruz's endorsement? just how many strangers has MTG cheated on her husband with? just where did gosar travel to that cost tax payers over a millon in the last few years? why isn't matt gaetz in jail yet for interstate sex trafficing? where did cawthorn really spend all those thousands of dollars? ... you can call it muck raking, or you can call it bringing light into the darkness...
 
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HGCC

Well-Known Member
both of those individuals are known and hated by the right...i don't think they would have a chance, especially Franken, after resigning due to allegations of sexual misconduct...whether he did it or not, resigning without fighting seems like an admission of guilt. the republicans would play that over and over till it ran from the entire country's ears like water off a roof in a rain storm...
Well those are still my ideal dudes. The Republicans are going to try smear whoever with whatever, I want someone that can make fun of them/hit back.

These are the people that latched onto biden sniffing kids, fuck em.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Well those are still my ideal dudes. The Republicans are going to try smear whoever with whatever, I want someone that can make fun of them/hit back.

These are the people that latched onto biden sniffing kids, fuck em.
yeah, and i like both of them, and think they could do a much better job than anyone the republicans could run against them...but there's who i like, and then there's who i think can win...if you want to put up a credible candidate that can compete against whoever the republicans actually pick, they have to have a decent platform, they have to have name recognition, they can't be too far left...and they have to work on some of the same issues that the republicans beat to death every election, crime, immigration, employment, taxes, inflation.
democrats are excited about jan.6th, and they should be, but republicans aren't, and a fair amount of independents aren't either. they're a lot more excited about inflation, education, crime, and immigration...throw the independents a bone or two, sway some of them to lean a lot further left than they do now...politics is supposed to be bipartisan, about making compromises...democrats should at least put a small effort into being a little more palatable to those who remain undeclared.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
yeah, and i like both of them, and think they could do a much better job than anyone the republicans could run against them...but there's who i like, and then there's who i think can win...if you want to put up a credible candidate that can compete against whoever the republicans actually pick, they have to have a decent platform, they have to have name recognition, they can't be too far left...and they have to work on some of the same issues that the republicans beat to death every election, crime, immigration, employment, taxes, inflation.
democrats are excited about jan.6th, and they should be, but republicans aren't, and a fair amount of independents aren't either. they're a lot more excited about inflation, education, crime, and immigration...throw the independents a bone or two, sway some of them to lean a lot further left than they do now...politics is supposed to be bipartisan, about making compromises...democrats should at least put a small effort into being a little more palatable to those who remain undeclared.
I'd just go one step more by adding I want the nominee to also be able to help pull out wins in the house and senate by not scaring those people in the middle into splitting their tickets.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Al Franken/Jon Stewart, I'm rooting for someone with a background in comedy. I want someone that can verbally spar with whoever. I'm not so much worried about debate, we had two elections where a shocking number backed the dumbest fuck to ever hold the office and knew it going in based on debates, I want someone that can make fun of the other person real time. Just embarass the hell out of them. Go to their house and talk shit in their driveway. Crash their press conferences.

Neither of those picks would alienate the conservatives biden won over, they aren't far left in their views. I think they could speak to and connect with voters in a way many can't.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/07/08/jon-stewart-2024-democrats-00044146

perhaps you're on to something, after all....
 

HGCC

Well-Known Member
Running for president is a popularity contest. I think Stewart could connect with voters better than anyone mentioned. I see it as a play for the middle really, I don't see him losing support anywhere and I think he could pull a decent amount of middle America blue collar support back.

Franken is probably better in the senate, I do think you are right that the sexual harassment scandal is a big weight and would hold him back. I think he got screwed, but it sorta is what it is. This is what made me think of him recently https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/21/opinion/michelle-goldberg-al-franken.html
 

HGCC

Well-Known Member
Thought this was interesting, not sure how well he would do, but Governor Polis of CO seems like he could develop into a contender. Sort of occupies the yang space of pragmatic businessman and crossing aisles. Maybe I just like that he hangs out on reddit making fun of stuff.

https://www.thebulwark.com/colorado-governor-jared-polis-the-gaymer-democrats-need/

Came across that to send to some relatives in FL that were imploring the midwest ones not to vote for desantis and that it would be personally insulting to them.
 

Herb & Suds

Well-Known Member
Thought this was interesting, not sure how well he would do, but Governor Polis of CO seems like he could develop into a contender. Sort of occupies the yang space of pragmatic businessman and crossing aisles. Maybe I just like that he hangs out on reddit making fun of stuff.

https://www.thebulwark.com/colorado-governor-jared-polis-the-gaymer-democrats-need/

Came across that to send to some relatives in FL that were imploring the midwest ones not to vote for desantis and that it would be personally insulting to them.
And watches Southpark
 

HGCC

Well-Known Member
And watches Southpark
Seems pretty decent all around to me, I would vote for him in a primary. Though I think people get an oversized view of how important their particular state's governors are. Not sure he has any real name recognition outside of CO. When I talk to the folks from IL they think pritzker is going to go for it...but don't seem to get that nobody cares/knows about him outside of IL.

Edit: CA/TX are outside my governor comment, they are huge and whoever runs them is always well known.
 
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hanimmal

Well-Known Member
https://www.rawstory.com/republicans-desperate-to-get-off-the-donald-trump-expres/Screen Shot 2022-08-02 at 6.15.25 AM.png
Don't look now, but the GOP elite are once again trying to find a way to get off the Donald Trump Express. This is roughly the 50th time that Beltway Republicans, tired of being tied to a half-literate and criminal reality TV host, have looked for a disembarking opportunity. This time, they're eyeballing Ron DeSantis Station, hoping the Yale and Harvard-educated Florida governor is cruel enough to win over Trump voters without bringing along all that Trump criminality baggage.

Hey, anything is possible, especially if the Department of Justice actually sucks it up and does the right thing in charging Trump for one or more of his many crimes. January 6, in particular, was a unique event in American history and it's still not entirely certain what the ramifications will be when Trump invariably runs for president again. But if what GOP elites are looking for is someone who can excite the lizard brains of the GOP base without all that pesky criminal baggage, well, DeSantis just isn't their guy.

Sure, DeSantis is performing fairly well in some polling match-ups against Trump right now, but that doesn't really mean much. It's common for there to be flare-ups of interest in primary challengers this far out from an election. Most voters aren't really paying attention and, likely, don't really know much about DeSantis or have even heard him talk. Once people start tuning in, however, these kinds of polling wrinkles tend to be ironed out.

Boston Globe columnist Michael Cohen, in a recent newsletter, took a shot at explaining why feels like DeSantis-mentum is more fantasy than reality. DeSantis, Cohen argues, is "a smug and charmless jerk" who "struggles to keep his inner hater under wraps." DeSantis, Cohen argues, has cultivated "an image as the country's angriest, pettiest, and most vindictive cultural warrior."

Trump speaks to people who like their white privilege, but also like Disney movies, having sex, and don't really care if their gay neighbors get married.

Of course, all that is also true of Trump. Cohen tries to square that circle by arguing that Trump, unlike DeSantis, "is charming and charismatic" to many Americans, "as crazy as it might seem."

Cohen is right that Trump has an appeal that DeSantis doesn't have. The Trump "charisma" is that of a schoolyard bully. His fans love his ease with insults and the total lack of shame Trump brings to sneering at people for being disabled, female, queer or people of color. His "shock jock" persona is aspirational, drawing in people who wish they, too, could just be shitty to people's faces without having to pay social consequences like losing their job or being banned from their wife's family gatherings.

DeSantis, meanwhile, has serial killer energy. His sadism has appeal to the hardcore fundamentalist Christian base of the GOP, but it has an intensity that is likely off-putting to a huge chunk of Trump voters. The key to understanding Trump's popularity comes down to this: Trump has fooled huge numbers of people into believing he's not a radical right-winger.

That may sound nuts to political junkies who follow Trump's every move and know, for instance, that Roe v. Wade wouldn't have been overturned if not for Trump's commitment to nominating anti-choice judges. But it's worth remembering that a lot of Trump voters are people who don't really follow politics very closely and have no idea how in tune Trump is with the religious right's radical agenda.

On the contrary, what they know about Trump is that he's been married three times, has kids with all his wives, and is a chronic adulterer who has probably caused an abortion or ten in his lifetime. Trump's hilariously fake "Christianity," perversely, is reassuring to the segment of Republican-leaning voters who are racist and sexist, but also like having sex and aren't keen on having the Jesus police stationing themselves in American bedrooms.

The "I'm a Republican, but not a fundie" crowd is bigger than is generally acknowledged in American political discourse. A new poll from CNN shows that a full 29% of Republicans oppose the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. What Trump offers those voters — call them Dirtbag-Americans — is a way to feel like they can both be a Republican without having to "agree" with the religious right's stifling anti-sex attitudes.

DeSantis, on the other hand, has made being a censorious fundamentalist his political identity, especially by enthusiastically backing the "don't say gay" law in Florida and declaring war on Disney for resisting him.

Sure, it's an irrational stance. You may not "personally" agree with abortion bans, but if you keep voting for politicians who ban abortion, it doesn't really matter what's in your heart. But, in America at least, voting is often not treated as rational decision-making based on policy preferences. Instead, it's understood through a consumerist lens, as if it's an expression of personal identity. Trump's aesthetic is "oversexed sleaze" and, for the Joe Rogan/Barstool Sports voters that make up the Dirtbag vote, that matters more than Trump's material support for anti-sex policies. They can feel that Trump doesn't really mean it when he says he wants to ban abortion, so they ignore the fact that he is the one who actually made abortion bans happen.

DeSantis, on the other hand, has made being a censorious fundamentalist his political identity, especially by enthusiastically backing the "don't say gay" law in Florida and declaring war on Disney for resisting him. There's nothing to hang onto for people looking for a reason to vote Republican, but who don't want to see themselves as the book-banning sex police. Picking on Disney, in particular, doesn't win you fans with people who rely on the company for their many fine products that keep kids entertained while you knock back brews with friends in the backyard.

Trump's death grip on the Republican Party really comes down to one thing: He turns out voters the party struggles to attract otherwise. The reason Trump's power over the GOP only grew after he lost the 2020 election is that he managed to pull in over 74 million voters, which was 7 million fewer than Joe Biden got, but 15 million more than, say, Mitt Romney got in 2012. That comes down to Trump's ability to pull in people who share the GOP's bigotry, but also don't want to be seen as prudes or killjoys. Trump speaks to people who like their white privilege, but also like Disney movies, having sex, and don't really care if their gay neighbors get married.

The January 6 insurrection may make it hard to ignore that Trump is a fascist, which could hurt him with the pro-choice/pro-Disney Republican voters. Interestingly, Rogan himself has turned on Trump, which is not good for keeping up goodwill with the dirtbag base. Still, focus group testing suggests Trump voters have found the rationalizations they need to disregard the Capitol riot.

But if Trump is going to be challenged in any meaningful way, Republicans need someone who has his ability to appeal to the Christian fundamentalists without scaring off that 29% of Republican voters that find all the anti-sex stuff off-putting. DeSantis, with his "don't say gay" law and pro-censorship stance, just tips too far into the prudery camp to keep those voters from fading away. As with every other attempt the Republican elites have mounted to take Trump out, dangling DeSantis as an alternative looks like a failure.
 

HGCC

Well-Known Member
Thought this bit was an interesting distinction:
------
On the contrary, what they know about Trump is that he's been married three times, has kids with all his wives, and is a chronic adulterer who has probably caused an abortion or ten in his lifetime. Trump's hilariously fake "Christianity," perversely, is reassuring to the segment of Republican-leaning voters who are racist and sexist, but also like having sex and aren't keen on having the Jesus police stationing themselves in American bedrooms.

The "I'm a Republican, but not a fundie" crowd is bigger than is generally acknowledged in American political discourse. A new poll from CNN shows that a full 29% of Republicans oppose the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. What Trump offers those voters — call them Dirtbag-Americans — is a way to feel like they can both be a Republican without having to "agree" with the religious right's stifling anti-sex attitudes.

DeSantis, on the other hand, has made being a censorious fundamentalist his political identity, especially by enthusiastically backing the "don't say gay" law in Florida and declaring war on Disney for resisting him.
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I guess it will be interesting to see how it plays out, I hadn't really considered that perspective. DeSantis seems like the infinitely more palatable option for the Republicans as a whole. Trumps trumpyness did woo the white trash that just liked that he was a shitty dude, but I don't think they leave with him. The Republican party is like a symbol now, doesn't matter that much who is at the helm, they get to wield their brand of being anti-liberal. Pandering to trash did make some Republicans leave, DeSantis is a fresh face, he will pull them back into the red column, the bar is low there.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Thought this bit was an interesting distinction:
------
On the contrary, what they know about Trump is that he's been married three times, has kids with all his wives, and is a chronic adulterer who has probably caused an abortion or ten in his lifetime. Trump's hilariously fake "Christianity," perversely, is reassuring to the segment of Republican-leaning voters who are racist and sexist, but also like having sex and aren't keen on having the Jesus police stationing themselves in American bedrooms.

The "I'm a Republican, but not a fundie" crowd is bigger than is generally acknowledged in American political discourse. A new poll from CNN shows that a full 29% of Republicans oppose the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. What Trump offers those voters — call them Dirtbag-Americans — is a way to feel like they can both be a Republican without having to "agree" with the religious right's stifling anti-sex attitudes.

DeSantis, on the other hand, has made being a censorious fundamentalist his political identity, especially by enthusiastically backing the "don't say gay" law in Florida and declaring war on Disney for resisting him.
‐-----------
I guess it will be interesting to see how it plays out, I hadn't really considered that perspective. DeSantis seems like the infinitely more palatable option for the Republicans as a whole. Trumps trumpyness did woo the white trash that just liked that he was a shitty dude, but I don't think they leave with him. The Republican party is like a symbol now, doesn't matter that much who is at the helm, they get to wield their brand of being anti-liberal. Pandering to trash did make some Republicans leave, DeSantis is a fresh face, he will pull them back into the red column, the bar is low there.
I agree that it doesn't much matter who it is at the helm as long as they are right wing trolls, which DeSantis is.

I think it is a matter of which reason people didn't vote for Trump though. I have a hard time thinking that the Republicans that left the party because they went full racist/fascist/general hate mongering dicks will see much difference in the two of them either enough to vote for this new con man.

Also you have to figure all those people full on in Trump's cult are going to be hard to get them to vote for DeSantis if Trump starts to stomp his feet like a spoiled kid and tells them to not vote for him.
 

HGCC

Well-Known Member
I think Trump was just a bridge too far, it wasn't the ideas people had a problem with, it was the delivery. They were fine with racism and all the other stuff mentioned...but it wasn't done classy anymore. They wanted all those policies, they didn't like that trump had his dick out constantly. They knew he made them look stupid.

The inlaws boners are hard as diamonds over desantis. The veneer doesn't have to be thick, just enough that it isn't a clown show.

I am pretty curious how the anti-lgbtq stuff works out for desantis. Desantis is obviously the worst person on that...but that veneer of credibility will get lots of medium republicans on board with "hey...maybe not saying gay is the way...we don't say school shooters names anymore, at least he isn't screaming faggot and throwing poop."
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I think Trump was just a bridge too far, it wasn't the ideas people had a problem with, it was the delivery. They were fine with racism and all the other stuff mentioned...but it wasn't done classy anymore. They wanted all those policies, they didn't like that trump had his dick out constantly. They knew he made them look stupid.

The inlaws boners are hard as diamonds over desantis. The veneer doesn't have to be thick, just enough that it isn't a clown show.

I am pretty curious how the anti-lgbtq stuff works out for desantis. Desantis is obviously the worst person on that...but that veneer of credibility will get lots of medium republicans on board with "hey...maybe not saying gay is the way...we don't say school shooters names anymore, at least he isn't screaming faggot and throwing poop."
That and the anti-business tactics I think are what will sink him in a general election.
 
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