Canadian Stuff

[CunningCanuk]

Can you explain what you believe the appropriate response Mr. Trudeau should have had to the SNC Lavalin controversy?

You’re okay with political influence in the justice system?

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

You’re okay with political influence in the justice system?

When it comes to international business arrangements it happens all the time, ask the Americans and Europeans. Charging the corporation for the crimes of individuals would have punished thousands of engineering workers who worked around the world. It was the law not the government that was wrong, it was the existing law for failing to make individuals responsible and not organizations with multiple shareholders and thousands of employees. You cannot send a corporation to prison, but a criminal record is not appropriate for a financial instrument either and would be fatal in this case. Laws are made for people, not things, even those considered persons under the law, and it is the people responsible who should pay the price. The government had the power to intervene and did so appropriately IMHO. My concern is with the thousands of employees and not so much with the shareholders, the corporate entity pays a fine and the execs go to jail is what I think. It was done for those reasons and intention is everything in these matters.

 

[CANON_Grow]

You’re okay with political influence in the justice system?

Well I would say I don't have an issue with the PMO asking the AG to review the facts and discuss the ramifications in this particular case. What do you think the correct response should have been?

 

[CANON_Grow]

When it comes to international business arrangements it happens all the time, ask the Americans and Europeans. Charging the corporation for the crimes of individuals would have punished thousands of engineering workers who worked around the world. It was the law not the government that was wrong, it was the existing law for failing to make individuals responsible and not organizations with multiple shareholders and thousands of employees. You cannot send a corporation to prison, but a criminal record is not appropriate for a financial instrument either and would be fatal in this case. Laws are made for people, not things, even those considered persons under the law, and it is the people responsible who should pay the price. The government had the power to intervene and did so appropriately IMHO. My concern is with the thousands of employees and not so much with the shareholders, the corporate entity pays a fine and the execs go to jail is what I think. It was done for those reasons and intention is everything in these matters.

100% agree, couldn't have worded it better.

 

[CANON_Grow]

JT is the self-proclaimed feminist. But if you are asking me, he is very much that problematic brand of white-heteronormative-post-modernist-third-wave-feminism, that a lot of "diverse progressive racialised" feminists argue has had its day in the sun, and marginalises the concerns of BiPOC community and elevates post modernist feminists to the role of "white saviour".

My first thought was Goodwill Hunting | Bar Scene, but I want to be fair, so what in particular makes you believe he is "that problematic brand"? Is anything less than capitulation problematic?

 

[CunningCanuk]

Well I would say I don't have an issue with the PMO asking the AG to review the facts and discuss the ramifications in this particular case. What do you think the correct response should have been?

If you believe the former AG, her and the prosecutors felt pressured to change their opinion of proceeding to trial. Once a case is in the courts I don’t believe there should be any political influence.

The correct response was to have no response at all.

 

[CunningCanuk]

When it comes to international business arrangements it happens all the time, ask the Americans and Europeans. Charging the corporation for the crimes of individuals would have punished thousands of engineering workers who worked around the world. It was the law not the government that was wrong, it was the existing law for failing to make individuals responsible and not organizations with multiple shareholders and thousands of employees. You cannot send a corporation to prison, but a criminal record is not appropriate for a financial instrument either and would be fatal in this case. Laws are made for people, not things, even those considered persons under the law, and it is the people responsible who should pay the price. The government had the power to intervene and did so appropriately IMHO. My concern is with the thousands of employees and not so much with the shareholders, the corporate entity pays a fine and the execs go to jail is what I think. It was done for those reasons and intention is everything in these matters.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

If you believe the former AG, her and the prosecutors felt pressured to change their opinion of proceeding to trial. Once a case is in the courts I don’t believe there should be any political influence.

The correct response was to have no response at all.

The government has discretion when it comes to forgien affairs and all government exercise this kind of power, it's how hundreds of Nazis got into America after the war because they were wanted by industry. There were thousands of jobs on the line with the simple designation of criminal and laws in other countries would have terminated contracts automatically. As I said, intention is everything and the intention was to save those jobs and not the executives or political friends. From time-to-time national governments must act this way when national interests are involved with forgien implications.

A Canadian company inside Canada would have resulted in the chips falling where they may, no matter what the financial implications, unless it crashed the economy. In the case of the Americans, they did crash the economy, and nobody went to jail, the big too big to fail banks were bailed out and the little fish left to die or closed down by regulators. I think that broke the faith many Americans had in the system and government, the first blow of many.

 

[CunningCanuk]

The government has discretion when it comes to forgien affairs and all government exercise this kind of power, it's how hundreds of Nazis got into America after the war because they were wanted by industry. There were thousands of jobs on the line with the simple designation of criminal and laws in other countries would have terminated contracts automatically. As I said, intention is everything and the intention was to save those jobs and not the executives or political friends. From time-to-time national governments must act this way when national interests are involved with forgien implications.

I don’t agree with your assertion but when you find your point of view equates to overlooking Nazi war crimes for economic gain, you might want to re-examine your point of view.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

I don’t agree with your assertion but when you find your point of view equates to overlooking Nazi war crimes for economic gain, you might want to re-examine your point of view.

It was used as an example of what happens, even after international law is implemented and for far more nefarious reasons than what JT did. He made a call in the best interests of the country, and I believe that was his intention, responsibly and was within his legal powers. I don't think any other government including an NDP one would have acted any differently, considering the employment implications of taking down our largest international engineering firm.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

I don’t agree with your assertion but when you find your point of view equates to overlooking Nazi war crimes for economic gain, you might want to re-examine your point of view.

Why do you think so many US corporations who break criminal law are offered plea deals where they avoid criminal responsibility? Because it is a death sentence to much of their international business.

 

[CANON_Grow]

If you believe the former AG, her and the prosecutors felt pressured to change their opinion of proceeding to trial. Once a case is in the courts I don’t believe there should be any political influence.

The correct response was to have no response at all.

But it wasn't in the courts yet. I went back and read JWR's statements again to make sure I wasn't forgetting something. JWR asked directly if PM was politically interfering and was told no. She was asked to seek outside counsel, specifically the former chief justice of the Supreme Court of Canada. If JWR was so sure she had thought everything through and was still correct on not intervening, why wouldn't she be open to discussing it with the former chief justice? The AG is to act in the public interest, how does potentially having SNC leave Canada because of something that happened in Libya in the public interest?

 

[GreyCountyGrower]

My first thought was Goodwill Hunting | Bar Scene, but I want to be fair, so what in particular makes you believe he is "that problematic brand"? Is anything less than capitulation problematic?

I think PM has spoken quite clearly for himself, and quitely clearly branded himself a "feminist." His education and privileged upbringing, as well as many of his takes/poistions on progressive issues, speak to his position. It's not necessarily to fault him, that was the dominent school of thought when he was in University.
I guess you could say that JT did once see the BiPOC perspective, but I am not sure that putting on blackface counts as "walking a mile in another personn's shoes."
But that's just my take.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

as an outsider, who isn't well versed in Candian politics, i can tell you that many, including myself, view Trudeau as a decent person, who is trying to do a good job, but has no experience, and considers himself more clever than he is...
not saying that is the truth, but that is the perception, and it's not just my own perception, have heard it echoed ...was gonna say many times, but we don't talk about your guy's politics many times...not from disinterest, but why pay attention to a flea circus when you have ring master trump holding the nation's attention with his three ring circus and his tiny car full of freedumb carcass clowns?

 

[GreyCountyGrower]

as an outsider, who isn't well versed in Candian politics, i can tell you that many, including myself, view Trudeau as a decent person, who is trying to do a good job, but has no experience, and considers himself more clever than he is...
not saying that is the truth, but that is the perception, and it's not just my own perception, have heard it echoed ...was gonna say many times, but we don't talk about your guy's politics many times...not from disinterest, but why pay attention to a flea circus when you have ring master trump holding the nation's attention with his three ring circus and his tiny car full of freedumb carcass clowns?

I think you are right, Trudeau is trying to do a good job. The problem is that he got his father's charisma and his mother's good looks, but neither of their's intelligence or talents. Yet for some reason, is detractors are too caught up in whatever nonsense the Tories are drumming up as a smoke screen, and dyed-in-the-wool Grits are still enamoured with the Trudeau name and the "golden age" of progressive Canadian politics.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

I think you are right, Trudeau is trying to do a good job. The problem is that he got his father's charisma and his mother's good looks, but neither of their's intelligence or talents. Yet for some reason, is detractors are too caught up in whatever nonsense the Tories are drumming up as a smoke screen, and dyed-in-the-wool Grits are still enamoured with the Trudeau name and the "golden age" of progressive Canadian politics.

he does have the pedigree, and he seems to be starting to develop as his own person.
hoping he turns out to be at least the man his father was, allies are good, strong, competent allies are even better.

 

[GreyCountyGrower]

he does have the pedigree, and he seems to be starting to develop as his own person.
hoping he turns out to be at least the man his father was, allies are good, strong, competent allies are even better.

The problem with Trudeau is that he talks like a progressive, but legislates like a regressive/conservative.
One can only hope that Justin becomes even half the man his father was, but the clock is very much winding down on that. Trudeau the Elder helped close down the last of the residential schools, helped enshrine our Charter Rights and repatriated our Constitution.
Trudeau the Yonger talks about the horrors of residential schools, but fights survivors of this system of colonial genocide. Trudeau the Younger talks about the need for clean, renewable energy while socialising massive oil infrastructure projects, and running them through unceeded native territories, backed by militarised elements of the national police force against peaceful protesters (no, not the pseudo-Truckers, I mean Water Protectors).
The Canadian media, and by extension the global media, present Trudeau as some young progressive leader for the future, despite his lackluster performance, and the deep contradictions within his own believe system. And why? JT's handsome mug sells better than the truth of his utter incompetence.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

The problem with Trudeau is that he talks like a progressive, but legislates like a regressive/conservative.
One can only hope that Justin becomes even half the man his father was, but the clock is very much winding down on that. Trudeau the Elder helped close down the last of the residential schools, helped enshrine our Charter Rights and repatriated our Constitution.
Trudeau the Yonger talks about the horrors of residential schools, but fights survivors of this system of colonial genocide. Trudeau the Younger talks about the need for clean, renewable energy while socialising massive oil infrastructure projects, and running them through unceeded native territories, backed by militarised elements of the national police force against peaceful protesters (no, not the pseudo-Truckers, I mean Water Protectors).
The Canadian media, and by extension the global media, present Trudeau as some young progressive leader for the future, despite his lackluster performance, and the deep contradictions within his own believe system. And why? JT's handsome mug sells better than the truth of his utter incompetence.

i can't comment intelligently on his domestic policies, i know nothing of them, my entire knowledge base comes from his participation in international affairs, where he seems at least competent, if a little smug for a person with very little experience in such things.
i'm actually interested, but finding it hard to find the time to inform myself well enough to have a meaningful response.

 

[GreyCountyGrower]

i can't comment intelligently on his domestic policies, i know nothing of them, my entire knowledge base comes from his participation in international affairs, where he seems at least competent, if a little smug for a person with very little experience in such things.
i'm actually interested, but finding it hard to find the time to inform myself well enough to have a meaningful response.

At least you take an interest. So few American's do. Hell I've met American's who aren't quite sure where Canada is (or even North as a cardinal compass point).

 

[GreyCountyGrower]

My first thought was Goodwill Hunting | Bar Scene, but I want to be fair, so what in particular makes you believe he is "that problematic brand"? Is anything less than capitulation problematic?

In that spirit, maybe in 50 years you will start doing something thinking of your own.