Good write up on defoliation

Hobbes

Well-Known Member
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I was convinced that defoliation was a trigger for larger yield and more potent buds, then I did a side by side test and the totals were nearly equal. So I stopped defoliating because I saw it as busy work, now this article has me thinking that some pruning could be helpful to the plant.


Sources vs. Sinks

First of all, you will need to understand the concept of Source vs. Sink within a plant. Pretty self explanatory, a source is any part of the plant that generates more photosynthate (sugar) than it requires for growth, and a sink is any part of the plant that requires more photosynthate than it can produce (or is producing). What is key to understand with this is that a plant tissue can change from sink, to source, and back to sink all as part of the plants natural process. For example, a newly forming leaf (fan leaf or bud leaf) is always going to be a sink, requiring more sugar to grow than it is currently producing from photosynthesis. . . but once that leaf has reached close to its mature size, it is producing much more sugar than it requires because it is hardly growing at that point. . . .and then again as that leaf becomes older and cells start to get older, the chlorophyll will actually lose effeciency and although the leaf may still look green and healthy, it is no longer generating more photosynthate than it requires to stay alive, and therefore older leaves become sinks again!

There are also parts of the plant which will almost always be sinks. Those are things like the roots (obviously no way of producing photosynthate, but still require it), the flowers on most plants because most flowers contain very little to no chlorophyll compared to a leaf, and seeds are always going to be sinks (the strongest sink).

The important reason I am explaining the Source vs. Sink relationship is because when you have too many sinks and not enough sources, your yield goes down and the overall vigor of your plant is reduced. So to maximize yield and sugar content in the final product (the buds), growers should try to eliminate other sinks as much as possible, while maintaining as many strong sources as they can without risking poor airflow or reduced efficiency with too much shading.

Keeping all this in mind, you can guess that a leaf which is receiving less light (heavily shaded) is most likely going to be functioning as a sink in the plant, drawing sugar away from other sinks that you may be more concerned about such as the buds. Removing leaves above the shaded leaf may give it more light, and maybe enough to start generating more sugar than it needs, but the lower down the leaf, the sooner it will be past its highest efficiency and the closer it is to becoming a sink permanently because of photosynthetic efficiency loss. Therefore, I tend to remove older fan leaves (less efficient) first before I go removing mature newer leaves higher up on the stems because they are more efficient.

Now, once you have removed any leaves that are past their prime, you may still have some fan leaves shading other bud sites, which in cannabis do produce their own smaller bud leaves. The larger fan leaves are MUCH more efficient at producing photosynthate than the smaller bud leaves, and because they tend to be more exposed to air flow they will also transpire more, meaning they help more water and nutrients move through the plant compared to bud leaves which have much less surface area and transpire/photosynthesize much less. So, that means it is better to keep large fan leaves, even if they are shading a bud site or two, because they will function as a source for the bud site (sink) and send its excess sugar to the bud. If you remove the fan leaf, the bud is already functioning as a sink, and so will have to get the rest of the sugar it needs from a different fan leaf on the plant (different source required), meaning a different sink is now getting less than it was because it is sharing its sugar supply from its own fan leaf. . . . this kind of sharing and relocating of sugar pathways takes extra energy in itself, and is not beneficial even if the bud site is no longer being shaded and can produce slightly more sugar on its own from the small bud leaves.

In conclusion, remove old fan leaves especially if they are no longer receiving any direct light. Try to maintain as many sources on the plant as possible by getting as much light and air flow to the newer mature fan leaves as possible. Remove any very low sinks that are far away from any strong sources because they will generate almost no photosynthate on their own, along with drawing photosynthate away from other sinks that are more local to the source leaves higher on the plant. And don’t worry if your bud leaves are shaded, because they are sinks anyways, so the plant is pumping all the excess sugar from local fan leaves to the nearest/strongest sinks it can find (your buds)!!

.
 

doughper

Well-Known Member
Nice article. So, you might not increase yield, but it'd stay same, but quality/potency would be better, I wonder?
It'd be really nice if when people quote articles, that they include a citation for the source of their fine articles, please?
 

Boatguy

Well-Known Member
Kind of a contradiction though.
New growth is the biggest sink, older growth doesnt doesnt truly decline in efficiency till it fades
 

SSHZ

Well-Known Member
I disagree with his point about keeping the large sun leaves and my grows prove my point............the largest of leaves block buds sites and when removed, the smaller leaves will grow large enough to probably have to be removed again later in the grow. But the real point is, lighting has way more of an impact than pruning and defoliation. I increased my average yield from the 60’s oz’s to over 100 oz changing from HPS to LED- using less wattage by the way.
 

Boatguy

Well-Known Member
I disagree with his point about keeping the large sun leaves and my grows prove my point............the largest of leaves block buds sites and when removed, the smaller leaves will grow large enough to probably have to be removed again later in the grow.
Not sure i buy into that.
Plants grow leaves to support flowering growth and seed production. Grower removes leaves to give the flower more light.
Plant switches to leaf growth to try to finish its life cycle. Grower again removes leaves.
Budsites dont grow themselves. Even the plant knows that.
Lower buds will always be smaller and less mature than the uppers, the plant flowers from the top down. It has nothing to do with leaf shade
 

Hobbes

Well-Known Member
It'd be really nice if when people quote articles, that they include a citation for the source of their fine articles, please?
.

Sorry - picked it up in another forum and the op just said that he got it from some guy called nmeeks. I tried searching for the article but no luck.

.

Really made me think about my current plants and how a third of the leaves at the bottom of the plants are in the shade. No doubt sinks.

Im going to remove some of the lower leaves and see if the plants perk up. Theyve been doing pretty good as they are - 4 super lemon haze.

é
 

doughper

Well-Known Member
third of the leaves at the bottom of the plants are in the shade. No doubt sinks.
Hell, what you have in your link down by your sig, https://www.rollitup.org/t/defoliation-trial-4-clones.1068428/
is good enough source in itself. I have seen a few pix of plants with i guess it's lollipopped, but they have branches,
buds, and one set of leaves, and so on, up the stalk of the plant. I kind of assumed they were pruning off the "sink"
leaves, leaving just enough leafs to do the photosynthesis and sugar conversion work for the flowers. Would that be
close to a correct assessment of how it works???

Oh, btw, i'm not a grower, just a big fan of growers. :weed:
 

BeauVida

Member
So we want to keep buds in the shade so they become more sinky?

Old shaded leaves don't grow, so they can't be using any sugar, right? Maybe the term "reserves" should be added to the equation. If you strip the bottom of your plants you'll need sap tests to keep on top of any nutrient issues. It's important if you grow lots of old landrace stuff.


"Young leaves are of particular interest. They attract pests because they are full of the nutrients while also being more vulnerable to attack. These youngsters can’t photosynthesize enough sugar to build chemical defenses for themselves, so they get sugars elsewhere; through the phloem. Think of phloem as a tube with ports for the leaves. Older leaves are almost always making sugars, loading them into the phloem where they are transported to various places.” Jack Schultz, director University of Missouri Bond Life Sciences Center.

I'd say the people who want you defoliating probably want you to use pesticides, follow the money.


It's all irrelevant when youre producing more sugars in sources (through Nitrogen calcium magnesium iron etc) than you are able to move to sinks (via phosphorus potassium boron etc). Like most grows these days. Or you're growing genetics that genetically hold sugars in leaves and stems to make them pretty and purpose. Like most grows these days.

Photosynthetic sugars and lipids follow nutrition more than anything. For whatever reason pot growers will think of all these wild ideas and completely ignore nutrition. If you spray your flowered with boron citrate, you'll have the dankest bud in town. The amount is so small, it's about the only thing I would ever spray on flowers. Study nutrition and open up an entire untapped avenue to Cannabis quality.
 

Wastei

Well-Known Member
Overall quality and uniformity is higher. "Lollipopping" is pretty well known and removes a lot of work and low potency larf at harvest. If you partially harvest and have healthy plants at harvest you can somewhat mitigate this.
 

curious2garden

Well-Known Mod
Staff member
.

I was convinced that defoliation was a trigger for larger yield and more potent buds, then I did a side by side test and the totals were nearly equal. So I stopped defoliating because I saw it as busy work, now this article has me thinking that some pruning could be helpful to the plant.


Sources vs. Sinks

First of all, you will need to understand the concept of Source vs. Sink within a plant. Pretty self explanatory, a source is any part of the plant that generates more photosynthate (sugar) than it requires for growth, and a sink is any part of the plant that requires more photosynthate than it can produce (or is producing). What is key to understand with this is that a plant tissue can change from sink, to source, and back to sink all as part of the plants natural process. For example, a newly forming leaf (fan leaf or bud leaf) is always going to be a sink, requiring more sugar to grow than it is currently producing from photosynthesis. . . but once that leaf has reached close to its mature size, it is producing much more sugar than it requires because it is hardly growing at that point. . . .and then again as that leaf becomes older and cells start to get older, the chlorophyll will actually lose effeciency and although the leaf may still look green and healthy, it is no longer generating more photosynthate than it requires to stay alive, and therefore older leaves become sinks again!

There are also parts of the plant which will almost always be sinks. Those are things like the roots (obviously no way of producing photosynthate, but still require it), the flowers on most plants because most flowers contain very little to no chlorophyll compared to a leaf, and seeds are always going to be sinks (the strongest sink).

The important reason I am explaining the Source vs. Sink relationship is because when you have too many sinks and not enough sources, your yield goes down and the overall vigor of your plant is reduced. So to maximize yield and sugar content in the final product (the buds), growers should try to eliminate other sinks as much as possible, while maintaining as many strong sources as they can without risking poor airflow or reduced efficiency with too much shading.

Keeping all this in mind, you can guess that a leaf which is receiving less light (heavily shaded) is most likely going to be functioning as a sink in the plant, drawing sugar away from other sinks that you may be more concerned about such as the buds. Removing leaves above the shaded leaf may give it more light, and maybe enough to start generating more sugar than it needs, but the lower down the leaf, the sooner it will be past its highest efficiency and the closer it is to becoming a sink permanently because of photosynthetic efficiency loss. Therefore, I tend to remove older fan leaves (less efficient) first before I go removing mature newer leaves higher up on the stems because they are more efficient.

Now, once you have removed any leaves that are past their prime, you may still have some fan leaves shading other bud sites, which in cannabis do produce their own smaller bud leaves. The larger fan leaves are MUCH more efficient at producing photosynthate than the smaller bud leaves, and because they tend to be more exposed to air flow they will also transpire more, meaning they help more water and nutrients move through the plant compared to bud leaves which have much less surface area and transpire/photosynthesize much less. So, that means it is better to keep large fan leaves, even if they are shading a bud site or two, because they will function as a source for the bud site (sink) and send its excess sugar to the bud. If you remove the fan leaf, the bud is already functioning as a sink, and so will have to get the rest of the sugar it needs from a different fan leaf on the plant (different source required), meaning a different sink is now getting less than it was because it is sharing its sugar supply from its own fan leaf. . . . this kind of sharing and relocating of sugar pathways takes extra energy in itself, and is not beneficial even if the bud site is no longer being shaded and can produce slightly more sugar on its own from the small bud leaves.

In conclusion, remove old fan leaves especially if they are no longer receiving any direct light. Try to maintain as many sources on the plant as possible by getting as much light and air flow to the newer mature fan leaves as possible. Remove any very low sinks that are far away from any strong sources because they will generate almost no photosynthate on their own, along with drawing photosynthate away from other sinks that are more local to the source leaves higher on the plant. And don’t worry if your bud leaves are shaded, because they are sinks anyways, so the plant is pumping all the excess sugar from local fan leaves to the nearest/strongest sinks it can find (your buds)!!

.
hth
 

MATTYMATT726

Well-Known Member
8-31 Day 37 Mango Isle Day 1 Flower trim.jpg9-26 Day 63 Mango Isle Flower day 27 2.jpg
Thinking WAYYYYY to hard on this. Defoliate and flip to flower. 3 weeks later(2nd pic is 4 weeks flower) and defol again all the big fans and watch it grow. No-one stands outside directing wildlife what foilage they can and can't eat and plants STILL grow fine and so will Marijuana.
 
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