Elons Little Plan

Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Bagginski said:
“Technology” is more accurately a broad discipline referred to as “the applied sciences”. Applied science is mostly a wonderful thing, and we all love engineers, don’t we? Oddly, tho, the applied sciences are almost never what we’re speaking of when we speak of “science”

Duration are more or less passive & active forms of ‘existence; notation & assignment of periodicity, reference context, and periods themselves would be functions of our hypothetical observer, depending as they do on relativistic considerations.

The only relativistic factor in our example space is distance; a sense of duration arises made to cover that distance - again, relative to the time required to reach other things in the space.

I’ve said virtually nothing about the observer because looking at dimensionality requires limiting ourselves to the operations of things in physical space (it all starts from a point, yes?). Bringing ‘mind’ into the scenario opens the door to speculation & imagination; it short-circuits the process of considering the unfoldment of the physical reality. We love to theorize, to the extreme that we’ll speculate wildly on the most specious notions…because it’s entertaining, and sometimes we feel smart doing it…sometimes, we’ll even try to overthrow a nation with it.

The unfoldment does reflect on & in consciousness as long as we view it as a thing in the space with everything else, and let it be governed only by those basic bodily tools were born with. At this level, close observation of how ‘the machine’ works is key.

This is why “time” (an unfortunate word-choice, much misunderstood) emerges before mass: its physical character is its presence, and the travel thru space to it emerges a sense of a period that passed on the way from Thing 1 to Thing 2 (how space & time get to dance so close together). Duration and persistence as such register as time passing, which drags consciousness into the conversation whether it messes things up or not. “Time”, from the very beginning, is inherently relativistic, Greenwich be damned.

This is why “time” is such a bad keyword for the 4th dimension it requires a relativistic perceiver…and is specific to the perceiver; our modern understanding & use of time is so ingrained that we assume we understand it, even when we don’t - even when it’s being given a special usage in context (like my blathering). In the theoretical case, time as we understand it is an end-product, not a fundamental characteristic of the physical universe.

Once consciousness comes into it, it sucks up all the air. “Time” is a non-definition, designed to stop difficult questions from arising.

Hope this dip into natural philosophy isn’t too turgid…maybe I’m not the only one who enjoyed it
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The second paragraph is the only thing that makes sense in the physical realm.
 
Bagginski

Bagginski

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
i honestly do not care how much he cuts his prices, i won't buy a tesla...i find him, his personal philosophy, and his ethics to be deeply offensive, and i do not support people who offend me.
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So far, he’s displayed no ethics of any kind - and, frankly, he’s displayed no real intelligence, either: he simply doesn’t *understand* things…betting he’s never thought ANYTHING all the way through in his life. That single lack is IMO the key to *ALL* his failures
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Bagginski said:
So far, he’s displayed no ethics of any kind - and, frankly, he’s displayed no real intelligence, either: he simply doesn’t *understand* things…betting he’s never thought ANYTHING all the way through in his life. That single lack is IMO the key to *ALL* his failures
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Yep, he's always depended on others to work hard for him. They were the ones who made him successful. I'm willing to bet that his meddling is behind this failure. Including driving a schedule that others warned him was too severe.

I worked in Silicon Valley long enough to know his kind. He was successful and was maybe even brilliant at one time. But that's long gone as he moved into fields where he has no expertise and doesn't seem to know how to stay out of the way of people who are expert. Hubris, self dealing egocentric. He also confuses hard work with good work. Not saying he doesn't work hard. But as one person said about the new Twitter, "they will work you until you don't have anything left. I don't think he has any real vision or creativity left. All he has is drive.

I've seen his kind build and then destroy companies. Not necessarily the same ones. He was successful with Paypal. He made big bucks there and then managed to get enough other rich and over confident people to give him their money. Like his rocket, he's going down in flames. A lot of good people are going to go down with too.
 
Bagginski

Bagginski

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
The second paragraph is the only thing that makes sense in the physical realm.
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I found a typo in the third paragraph:
“The only relativistic factor in our example space is distance; a sense of duration arises [from the effort] made to cover that distance - again, relative to the time required to reach other things in the space.”

This points to the space/time unity: IRL the distance between objects/places and the time to travel that distance have become effectively synonymous
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Bagginski said:
Totally fair - thanks for reading it.

Yes, keeping the “mysticism” out of it IS the hard part of the exercise: at some point, it seems *everyone* wants their own observer to start making assumptions & drawing conclusions
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There is interesting research into the mind that indicates it touches in 4-space, or maybe other dimensions. What you said is in agreement with that. The model I'm working with is our bodies including our brains are in four space while we can only see three space.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Bagginski said:
You make a good intro to the idea that not time but consciousness is itself the 4th dimension…but scientific philosophy isn’t as popular as it once was….
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I wouldn't say consciousness IS 4-space, I'd say consciousness touches it. The matter that makes our bodies are in and of the physical realm which is all of it, maybe not even limited to 4 dimensions. Our minds are limited and get glimmers of the larger reality. Our brains are in and of the larger realm but we generally aren't aware of it. I am a scientist and have no problem with others believing on faith, just not for me.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Bagginski said:
You make a good intro to the idea that not time but consciousness is itself the 4th dimension…but scientific philosophy isn’t as popular as it once was….
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One thing time has in common with consciousness is that on first pass we all know what they are — but on closer examination they become greased pigs. We don’t really know much about either.

There is one basic distinction. We can use fairly simple instruments to measure time and to record events against a temporal standard.

But there is no instrument that detects, records or measures consciousness. There is no physical model or proposed carrier principle or quantum for it. No unit, which is a basic necessity for a dimension. Sadly, the wokon is not a thing.
 
Bagginski

Bagginski

Well-Known Member
There may never be such: its core to the split in natural philosophy that resulted in the physical sciences going their own way. Physical sciences deal exclusively with phenomena that can be subjected to physical examination & analysis…which explicitly leaves out matters related to (or depending on) consciousness.

Left it in the hands of the Church, Gawd help us…we’re still blasting our way out of the marble mausolea in which “Christianity” imprisoned millennia of human thought & experience. Perhaps in 100 years, Christian eschatology & demagoguery will no longer be the frame within which everything is automatically considered
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Bagginski said:
There may never be such: its core to the split in natural philosophy that resulted in the physical sciences going their own way. Physical sciences deal exclusively with phenomena that can be subjected to physical examination & analysis…which explicitly leaves out matters related to (or depending on) consciousness.

Left it in the hands of the Church, Gawd help us…we’re still blasting our way out of the marble mausolea in which “Christianity” imprisoned millennia of human thought & experience. Perhaps in 100 years, Christian eschatology & demagoguery will no longer be the frame within which everything is automatically considered
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I always thought natural philosophy and physical science were the same. If you have a link that refutes or corrects, please share it.
 
Bagginski

Bagginski

Well-Known Member
Nothing as succinct as I’d like, a number of good articles, but none specifically targeting the ecumenical divergence of the - what, ‘phenomenal’ sciences (?), but a great deal is behind paywalls.

The closest I could get was this:
hsm.stackexchange.com

When and why did people stopped using "natural philosophy" term and started using "science"?

Previously what is called now "natural sciences" was called "natural philosophy". I'm interested in details, what was so wrong with the name "philosophy" so the name "science" became preferred?
hsm.stackexchange.com hsm.stackexchange.com
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
i know this was a test flight that was only given a 50% chance of success...but i have to admit to a little schadenfreude when i read that it had exploded...and the thought "too bad he wasn't on board."...passed through my mind.
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Because they are so closely monitored and highly instrumented all up testing is feasible these days, it was first done with the Saturn V moon rocket as a desperate measure to stay on schedule. Stage separation is a pretty well-known thing and they fucked up on something fundamental and never had a backup system or program to kick in.
 
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