Climate in the 21st Century

[DIY-HP-LED]

If we truly are to see them on the market in 5 years, they should be in advanced development, with the design intended for manufacture essentially finalized. There’s a fair amount of testing (safety, operating envelope, charging characteristics, number of cycles* before capacity drops to 90% initial, manufacturability and upstream supply definition etc.) that’ll need those five years.

Otherwise I’d say you’re being unduly optimistic about the timeline.

*There will be two numbers: one for slow home charging, and one for routinely getting punched in the face by megawatt chargers on the road.

For this kind of vehicle, the cheap version could even use a low energy density sodium battery. I've posted several companies who are introducing new batteries or have them under test or pilot plant production there have been many. There are a couple of companies producing solid state batteries soon, having worked out the many problems and they promise improved energy density, in terms of mass and volume. Others will be using improved electrolytes with existing production facilities. Even NASA has made commercially viable breakthrough currently being exploited for electric aviation, if you look at some of the articles, I posted about the more practical research that is close to deployment, 5 years sounds about right and from there on improvements should increase at an even more rapid pace, 5 years is 2028. Batteries are gonna be needed for all aspects of green new technology from devices, to EVs, to home battery banks, to grid scale storage using flow batteries and the scientific, technology, financial, auto and utility communities are hard at work making the transformation happen.

 

[cannabineer]

For this kind of vehicle, the cheap version could even use a low energy density sodium battery. I've posted several companies who are introducing new batteries or have them under test or pilot plant production there have been many. There are a couple of companies producing solid state batteries soon, having worked out the many problems and they promise improved energy density, in terms of mass and volume. Others will be using improved electrolytes with existing production facilities. Even NASA has made commercially viable breakthrough currently being exploited for electric aviation, if you look at some of the articles, I posted about the more practical research that is close to deployment, 5 years sounds about right and from there on improvements should increase at an even more rapid pace, 5 years is 2028. Batteries are gonna be needed for all aspects of green new technology from devices, to EVs, to home battery banks, to grid scale storage using flow batteries and the scientific, technology, financial, auto and utility communities are hard at work making the transformation happen.

When you say low-energy-density sodium battery, how low?

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

When you say low-energy-density sodium battery, how low?

They do say they will be used in light vehicles and bikes and improvements are promised. LMFP batteries are very promising too for energy density, cost and cycle life too. You seem to think there will be no improvements in battery tech over the next 5 years when many people have been working on it in a very big way for the past 5 or ten years and there has been a lot of progress both in the lab and where the rubber meets the road. Even regular Li-on batteries have improved considerably over the last decade but are far from ideal.

This covers this year and was published at the beginning of the year

What’s next for batteries

Expect new battery chemistries for electric vehicles and a manufacturing boost thanks to government funding this year.

www.technologyreview.com

They are currently building factories for these, one in America.

Breakthrough EV battery pack could last 2 million kms, or 130 years of average driving

Gotion High-Tech has announced its new L600 LMFP Astroinno battery with 1000km of range and 2 million km worth of charging cycles will go into mass production in 2024.

thedriven.io

and one more, these are just the first iterations, there will be improvements too.

Toyota Claims Breakthrough That Will Lead To 745-Mile EV Battery

The Japanese car manufacturer said that it had simplified production of the material used to make both solid-state and liquid-based batteries.

insideevs.com

 

[cannabineer]

They do say they will be used in light vehicles and bikes and improvements are promised. LMFP batteries are very promising too for energy density, cost and cycle life too. You seem to think there will be no improvements in battery tech over the next 5 years when many people have been working on it in a very big way for the past 5 or ten years and there has been a lot of progress both in the lab and where the rubber meets the road. Even regular Li-on batteries have improved considerably over the last decade but are far from ideal.

This covers this year and was published at the beginning of the year

What’s next for batteries

Expect new battery chemistries for electric vehicles and a manufacturing boost thanks to government funding this year.

www.technologyreview.com

They are currently building factories for these, one in America.

Breakthrough EV battery pack could last 2 million kms, or 130 years of average driving

Gotion High-Tech has announced its new L600 LMFP Astroinno battery with 1000km of range and 2 million km worth of charging cycles will go into mass production in 2024.

thedriven.io

and one more, these are just the first iterations, there will be improvements too.

Toyota Claims Breakthrough That Will Lead To 745-Mile EV Battery

The Japanese car manufacturer said that it had simplified production of the material used to make both solid-state and liquid-based batteries.

insideevs.com

Can you give me the spoiler? Wh/kg

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Can you give me the spoiler? Wh/kg

Pack or cell density and cooling requirements are also a consideration, but I figure we should be seeing 500Wh/kg in terms of cells within 5 years. Maybe 1000 Wh/kg for silicon and sulfur chemistries targeted towards electric aviation. I believe silicon has a theoretical capacity of 10 times current densities, so doubling the current power densities shouldn't be that difficult and practical breakthroughs have made in both chemistries making them much more viable and some silicon ones are in production now and more will be soon. We are talking up to 2028 and I expect many of the battery factories that are being built now should be up and running by 2025 at the latest and some of them offer improvements over what is being used now. The Apera is based on current Li-on battery tech with low pack power density and each Li-on cell encased in steel, for fast charging such packs require cooling systems that adds mass. Our little solar power car would seldom need fast charging and might be built so it couldn't be fast charged, not designed for it, but pull out the retractable 120 cord and plug it into 120 volts anywhere and it charges itself with the sun.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Dunno how well these Wikis are maintained, but with all the activity in the field they should be up to date and accurate.

Lithium–silicon battery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Li-S Energy’s Lithium-Sulfur Cells Achieve 540 Wh/l Energy Density

Li-S Energy has achieved 45 percent more volumetric energy density on its new 20-layer lithium-sulfur cells.

insideevs.com

An accidental discovery could change the world

A surprise discovery by Drexel University scientists could unlock an elusive technology: lithium-sulfur batteries.

www.freethink.com

 

[cannabineer]

Pack or cell density and cooling requirements are also a consideration, but I figure we should be seeing 500Wh/kg in terms of cells within 5 years. Maybe 1000 Wh/kg for silicon and sulfur chemistries targeted towards electric aviation. I believe silicon has a theoretical capacity of 10 times current densities, so doubling the current power densities shouldn't be that difficult and practical breakthroughs have made in both chemistries making them much more viable and some silicon ones are in production now and more will be soon. We are talking up to 2028 and I expect many of the battery factories that are being built now should be up and running by 2025 at the latest and some of them offer improvements over what is being used now. The Apera is based on current Li-on battery tech with low pack power density and each Li-on cell encased in steel, for fast charging such packs require cooling systems that adds mass. Our little solar power car would seldom need fast charging and might be built so it couldn't be fast charged, not designed for it, but pull out the retractable 120 cord and plug it into 120 volts anywhere and it charges itself with the sun.

I was not clear. Typical energy density for currently commercial sodium cells?

Also, I beseech thee: Li-ion

Li-on irresistibly makes me think of a bisected big cat.

 

[BudmanTX]

Okie dokie

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

I was not clear. Typical energy density for currently commercial sodium cells?

Also, I beseech thee: Li-ion

Li-on irresistibly makes me think of a bisected big cat.

They are low compared to some lithium chemistries but are nearly equal with LMP. Several articles I've read say they are good for electric scooters ebikes and small light cars as a cheapo option. There is a Chinese company making a car powered by them now, but I expect they will mostly be used for home power banks and solar power storage. It will lower the cost of lithium batteries though as more options come online.

Let say your cheap solar self-charging Chinese runabout only needed a 100 mile range and could charge to 40 miles a day with cheap flexible solar panels and sodium batteries? Let's also say the pack could also be upgraded to a more powerful one and since the sodium one is long life, you would get a trade in on it.

 

[cannabineer]

They are low compared to some lithium chemistries but are nearly equal with LMP. Several articles I've read say they are good for electric scooters ebikes and small light cars as a cheapo option. There is a Chinese company making a car powered by them now, but I expect they will mostly be used for home power banks and solar power storage. It will lower the cost of lithium batteries though as more options come online.

Let say your cheap solar self-charging Chinese runabout only needed a 100 mile range and could charge to 40 miles a day with cheap flexible solar panels and sodium batteries? Let's also say the pack could also be upgraded to a more powerful one and since the sodium one is long life, you would get a trade in on it.

Nah. I’m waiting for a kWh/kg scalable. Nice to have an ebike that can do an all-day slog.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Nah. I’m waiting for a kWh/kg scalable. Nice to have an ebike that can do an all-day slog.

75–200 W·h/kg, based on prototypes and product announcements

Sodium-ion battery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[cannabineer]

75–200 W·h/kg, based on prototypes and product announcements

Sodium-ion battery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

oh. ok.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

oh. ok.

View attachment 5324970

I did say the cheapo Chinese version, but sodium will contribute to an overall drop in EV battery prices by supplanting lithium for stationary functions. Newer batteries with double the range with better pack densities should be here in 5 years and mass production (or over production) will make them much cheaper. LMFP is a better option and are expected to last 130 years, so they should accumulate and pack densities for this cell could do the job of doubling the power per kg. A less flammable or nonflammable battery requires a much lighter steel pack or even aluminum or plastic case and an Aputra with new battery tech should do much better than the current model. The same volume and weight battery of the new battery might get 2000 miles range, or the vehicle could be even more efficient with half the battery weight. This is where I figure the slack will come from to design more conventional looking vehicles with less expensive construction in the same class as the Aptura.

 

[cannabineer]

I did say the cheapo Chinese version, but sodium will contribute to an overall drop in EV battery prices by supplanting lithium for stationary functions. Newer batteries with double the range with better pack densities should be here in 5 years and mass production (or over production) will make them much cheaper. LMFP is a better option and are expected to last 130 years, so they should accumulate and pack densities for this cell could do the job of doubling the power per kg. A less flammable or nonflammable battery requires a much lighter steel pack or even aluminum or plastic case and an Aputra with new battery tech should do much better than the current model. The same volume and weight battery of the new battery might get 2000 miles range, or the vehicle could be even more efficient with half the battery weight. This is where I figure the slack will come from to design more conventional looking vehicles with less expensive construction in the same class as the Aptura.

I am only interested in technologies with catalog numbers. You know that.

There is no substitute for energy/weight. I do not understand your comment LMFP is a better option and are expected to last 130 years, so they should accumulate and pack densities for this cell could do the job of doubling the power per kg. How can that double the energy density? Stipulate no intermediate charging.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

I am only interested in technologies with catalog numbers. You know that.

There is no substitute for energy/weight. I do not understand your comment LMFP is a better option and are expected to last 130 years, so they should accumulate and pack densities for this cell could do the job of doubling the power per kg. How can that double the energy density? Stipulate no intermediate charging.

Gotion Introduces LMFP Battery With Energy Density Of 240 Wh/Kg - CleanTechnica

Volkswagen battery supplier Gotion has revealed a new lithium manganese iron phosphate battery it says can go 1000 km.

cleantechnica.com

In a press release, Cheng said, “Our Astroinno L600 LMFP battery cell, which has passed all safety tests, has a weight energy density of 240 Wh/kg, a volume energy density of 525 Wh/L, a cycle life of 4000 times at room temperature, and a cycle life of 1800 times at high temperatures. The volumetric cell to pack ratio has reached 76% after adopting the L600 cell, and the system energy density has reached 190Wh/kg, surpassing the pack energy density of current mass produced NCM cells. It is due to the high energy density of Astroinno battery that we can enable a range of 1000 km without relying on NCM materials.”

According to Cheng, after ten years of in-house research on lithium-manganese-iron-phosphate (LMFP) materials, Gotion High Tech has solved the challenges of manganese dissolution at high temperatures, low conductivity, and low compaction density through utilizing co-precipitation doping encapsulation technology, new granulation technology, and new electrolyte additives.

 

[cannabineer]

Gotion Introduces LMFP Battery With Energy Density Of 240 Wh/Kg - CleanTechnica

Volkswagen battery supplier Gotion has revealed a new lithium manganese iron phosphate battery it says can go 1000 km.

cleantechnica.com

In a press release, Cheng said, “Our Astroinno L600 LMFP battery cell, which has passed all safety tests, has a weight energy density of 240 Wh/kg, a volume energy density of 525 Wh/L, a cycle life of 4000 times at room temperature, and a cycle life of 1800 times at high temperatures. The volumetric cell to pack ratio has reached 76% after adopting the L600 cell, and the system energy density has reached 190Wh/kg, surpassing the pack energy density of current mass produced NCM cells. It is due to the high energy density of Astroinno battery that we can enable a range of 1000 km without relying on NCM materials.”

According to Cheng, after ten years of in-house research on lithium-manganese-iron-phosphate (LMFP) materials, Gotion High Tech has solved the challenges of manganese dissolution at high temperatures, low conductivity, and low compaction density through utilizing co-precipitation doping encapsulation technology, new granulation technology, and new electrolyte additives.

if so
catalog number
retail price

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

I am only interested in technologies with catalog numbers. You know that.

There is no substitute for energy/weight. I do not understand your comment LMFP is a better option and are expected to last 130 years, so they should accumulate and pack densities for this cell could do the job of doubling the power per kg. How can that double the energy density? Stipulate no intermediate charging.

LMFP has the advantages of LMF with much higher power density. This is just one example of the expanding battery options, for decades Li-ion was the only game in town, and they use nickel and cobalt.

Cell-to-pack LFP Lithium Batteries Outperform NMC - OneCharge

LFP exhibits similar energy density (Wh/L) with NMC when evaluated at the pack level, despite a contrast at the cell level.

www.onecharge.biz

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

if so
catalog number
retail price

That one just broke ground for a big factory in Michigan I believe. EV makers don't pay retail price and catalog numbers are for lab work, this is industrial scale.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

if so
catalog number
retail price

China-Based Gotion Unveils 621-Mile Battery, Mass Production To Begin Next Year

With mass production set to begin in 2024, the new battery has already passed all the necessary safety tests and that it can potentially last for up to 4,000 charge-discharge cycles.

insideevs.com

China-Based Gotion Unveils 621-Mile Battery, Mass Production To Begin Next Year
The LMFP battery has a potential lifetime of 2.4 million miles.

Comparatively, the silicon anode lithium-ion cells made by Amprius have an energy density of 450 Wh/kg, while Tesla’s 4860-type cells, which use a graphite anode, offer an estimated energy density of 272-296 Wh/kg.

Volkswagen is already one of Gotion’s customers, but the Chinese battery manufacturer hasn’t disclosed what vehicle will be the first to receive its new L600 cells. In related news, the maker of the Astroinno is planning a $2.3 billion battery factory in Michigan’s Green Charter Township, so it will be interesting to see how things unfold.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

How a beaver boom is reshaping floods and fire

37,723 views Jun 8, 2022 #wildfire #beavers #climatechange
Beavers can be a nuisance — but they might also offer some real climate benefits.

David Haakenson thinks about water a lot. That’s because the farm he owns in western Washington experiences frequent, catastrophic floods. And climate change is making that trend worse.

“We had floods in October. We had floods in November, December, January, February, and March,” said Haakenson, the owner of Jubilee Farm. “There's this kind of anxiety that involves — like, when you look out on the field and say, ‘Wow, I make my living off that field and now it's a lake.’”

To protect Jubilee Farm, Haakenson is looking to an unlikely ally: Beavers. Because it turns out, beavers might actually offer some real protection against climate impacts like flooding and wildfires — if people can learn to live with them.