Burning Tips

chadalu

Active Member
Hi everyone,


I recently switched from Gavita DE fixtures to LED bar lights with LM301H Evo diodes.


I’m using the same soil, nutrients, and keeping CO₂ around 1200 ppm. However, as soon as I switch from veg to flower, my fan leaves start burning at the tips, then progressively die off, and by the end of flowering most of them are gone.


I’m measuring light with an Apogee PPFD meter, and readings are around 500–600 µmol/m²/s. The LED bars are nearly 1 meter (about 3 ft) above the canopy.


Has anyone experienced something similar? Any suggestions on what could be causing this?
 

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Good start on information but more info would be helpful—EC, how often do you water, temperature, RH, etc.

Biggest issue is that you've gone from a grow light that generates light+a heater that warms up vegetation to a grow light that generates light and does very little in terms of increasing leaf temperature. With the drop in leaf temperature, transpiration drops and that will tend to lead to nutrient imbalances.

Also, your light levels are low. Cannabis will thrive at 800-1000µmol in ambient CO2. With the modest amount of light that you're feeding your plants, photosynthesis rates are not very hight which means that transpiration is not very high.

The plants look fairly green. I don't know that you have an N toxicity but the leaves appear to be dark green and shiny which makes me thing that you're getting close. With the change to flower, the need for N drops so a change in nutrients might help.

Off the cuff, first step would be to drop EC by a bit.

You may benefit by increasing ambient temperature, especially in light of 1200PPM CO2. Leaf temps of ~85° in veg are about as high as you want to go with cannabis with temps dropping as you enter flower, eventually going <=78° by the second week of flower.

Given that you've got all of that CO2 there, I'd look to double the PPFD. Cannabis thrives on high light with yield increasing directly with PPFD/DLI. With ~three times as much CO2 in your grow area as in the atmosphere (~430PPM), you will get a significant boost in growth and yield. Just adding CO2 is generally taken to result in a ~30% boost. If you double your PPFD as well, I would expect to about another 40-50% bump on top of that.

That's just some general ideas that could help based on the info that you've provided (light source change, photos, and CO2 levels). More specific information, as mentioned above, including photos of the plants and of the grow area will help nail down changes that more specific to your grow.
 
Thanks for you reply
Im using Remo Nutrients , Following they feedchart, It aways worked fine on Gavitas DE , My EC stands 2.2-2.7 at flowering, and im watering 2 times a day.
Temps are about 71.6°F on air, i will Measure the leaf temperature tomorrow with a thermal sensor. the VPD average is 1,3-1,4
RH 55%

I will try to increase room temperature without messing too much with vpd
 
TRY DROPPING TO ONE FEED A DAY, AND MAY BE DOPPING YOUR EC, 2,7 IS A LOT, I KNOW PPL WHO FLOWER WITH 1.3 MAX EC oops, didn't mean to shout. yes, 1.3 EC max during the whole flowering process, i don't know why ppl try to max out EC, it just seems to cause problems.
some extra heat would help as was mentioned by Delps8
 
Thanks for you reply Go Go kid
I’ve always used Remo according to the stock feed chart, and with HPS I never had any nutrient deficiencies or excesses while keeping the EC in this range.
This is my third cycle facing the same issue. I’ve already tried changing the substrate, lowering the LED panel intensity, and even switching to different nutrients, but the result is always the same.
I’ll try raising the air conditioner setpoint to increase transpiration and see if that gives me positive results.
 
"I’ve always used Remo according to the stock feed chart, and with HPS I never had any nutrient deficiencies or excesses while keeping the EC in this range.
This is my third cycle facing the same issue. I’ve already tried changing the substrate, lowering the LED panel intensity, and even switching to different nutrients, but the result is always the same."

By a process of elimination, you're finding the things that don't work. Would that I were so patient.


The chart below shows VPD at a variety of temps. At 72° and RH 55% with a leaf temperature offset of -2°F, your VPD is 1.0. That's a significant reduction in transpiration from 1.3 (25%). If you were using HPS previously, your leaf temps were significantly higher which raised VPD and that increased the rate of photosynthesis. 72° is pretty chilly for cannabis, even in flower.

Couple the low temp with only 550µmol and you have very slow growing plants. An EC of 2.2 in flower might be suitable for cannabis under HPS but, with the low leaf temps, you're now proving, for the third time, that it's too high. The combination of low temps and low PPFD call for reduced EC.

Light is how a plant generates glucose, which is uses for food. In addition to sugars, the plant requires the chemicals in nutrients for respiration and growth. They have to work in roughly similar levels for the plant to thrive. When you're proving EC 2.2 in a low VPD, low light environment the result is that you have plants that are getting a lot of nitrogen and are starting to show nutrient imbalances.

The steps that I would take to bring things back into balance:
1755484111917.png

Why do you want to use a PPFD of 500-600µmol?

If you want to keep your light at that level, reduce your EC. I can't think of a reason to use 550µmol unless you want to use an LED grow light to mimic the output of an HPS light. A cannabis plant, in a sound environment, will thrive on 500-600µmol by week 2-3. There's no argument that you can get a crop at 500-600 but if you want to use that amount of light with LED your plants will benefit by adjusting other parts of your grow environment to compensate.

Another issue is temperature. At 72°, your rate of photosynthesis is very low. The graphic below is from "the Chandra paper" (attached) which many growers mistakenly glommed on to because they thought it made the argument that there's little value in using >600µmol for cannabis. That's an invalid assumption, as all research on light levels on cannabis have shown.

What's interesting about your grow is that you're supplementing CO2, which is great for increasing the rate of photosynthesis, but your low temps are constraining growth. Take a moment to review the chart and you'll see the impact.

The increased CO2 level is resulting in increase photosynthesis but it's markedly below the rate of photosynthesis that you would be getting by increasing the temperature.

The crop yield curve for cannabis does not match the diminishing returns that Chandra documents for net photosynthesis. Careful reading of the paper reveals that the rate of photosynthesis was for individual leaves that were harvested and tested in a small chamber. The data are taken to be correct but it's completely erroneous to conclude that cannabis yield exhibits the same curve. It does not and, if you read the paper at this link, a group of researchers at Guelph (a school with a good reputation for STEM in Ontario, CA) discuss that they undertook their research to deal with that very issue.

I suspect that the increase in photosynthesis helps offset reduction that the cooler temperature causes, so your EC levels aren't that far off. Perhaps it would be beneficial to drop EC by 10-20% and see how the plants react.

That is a band aid, though. If you've got the ability to enhance CO2 levels, it seems a shame to provide you plants with such a limited amount of light and keep them at only 72°. Per my earlier posting, tending to those two issues has the potential to cause a vast increase in yield.

1755484749825.png
 

Attachments

Hi everyone,


I recently switched from Gavita DE fixtures to LED bar lights with LM301H Evo diodes.


I’m using the same soil, nutrients, and keeping CO₂ around 1200 ppm. However, as soon as I switch from veg to flower, my fan leaves start burning at the tips, then progressively die off, and by the end of flowering most of them are gone.


I’m measuring light with an Apogee PPFD meter, and readings are around 500–600 µmol/m²/s. The LED bars are nearly 1 meter (about 3 ft) above the canopy.


Has anyone experienced something similar? Any suggestions on what could be causing this?

When switching from HPS to LEDs you lose some temps.
And if you don't adjust the temps back to to HPS level (account for the IR-radiation aswell),
your plants will transpire less and thus will get less Calcium.

This might to lead inbalanced uptake between K,Mg,Ca.
Too much of any of the 3 leads less absorption for the other two.

Looks like K deficiency to me, but the reason is a bit unclear.
If you are watering soil 2x times a day, then it is definatly too often.
Wet soil could be the reason the plant can't take up the nutes even if they are there.
Also the total EC seems a bit high too and could lead to lockouts.
 
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