Experience with LED's

[specialkayme]

i'm in total agreement. Each has their specalty, and is best used in certain situations. I just hate for people to read stuff up about HPS, or CFLs, or LEDs for that matter, and not understand exactly what it is they need, or what would work better for them.

It actually hurts me to watch people make an array of 20-30 CFLs and claim that it is the best thing they can do.

But, likewise, it also hurts me to watch people try and argue with me that they can fit their 600 watt HPS into a cabinet the size of a minifridge, and that is the best use of their power.

It's all about situations.

 

[jgorbin]

My first grow ever 3 weeks into flowering.

Using two of those 12 inch square panels with the 10mm LEDs

GH Hydro farm bucket

Seems to be working well to me but I do not have a frame of reference. I really like the cool running temp for small space.

 

[jgorbin]

Well here we are week 5 with 10mm led Glow Panel Getting some results. Hard and sticky tops.

 

[Cannabox]

i say we make a LED section under indoor growin, and ANY thread about leds gets put there. and if you even post about LEDS outside of that forum you get perma banned.

silly grower, LEDS are for astronauts.

 

[Jonus]

I found that once it got to week five under my LED grow that the buds didnt get much bigger between 5 and harvest. If there is going to be an LED section then I think it really needs to have dedicated LED developers working on better lamps because currently the ones being retailed do not cut it when it comes to matching it against CFLs and HPSs in the budding stage.

It is a no brainer that budding with LEDs is not going to get the results of the other types of flowering lights so what you do not want is a section full of growers journals full of bad budding photos or photos that just keep consistently showing the same thing, that LEDs are currently inferior as budding lights compared to HIDs and CFLs. (no disrespect to jgorbin, and props for the pics). That would be counter productive in developing new ideas and techniques for using LED light technology for growing.

 

[curious.george]

My help will not be a good prediction of what other people have to say. Everyone on here hates LEDs, I don't

LEDs work well for veg, but they lack in flowering. If you are planning on flowering, stick with CFLs or t5's.

I use LED's as well, and I agree.

 

[specialkayme]

I use LED's as well, and I agree.

Mind if I ask what type of LED you use? Brand? Watts?

Also, what do you use for flowering?

Btw, nice to see a fellow open minded individual that isn't dying to throw stones at a brand new peice of technology that hasn't been finely tuned just yet.

 

[jgorbin]

I am using the Grow Panel 40 watt with the 10mm LEDs. I started flowering 12 hours on/off and have been modifying the GH nutes per some recipe I found increasing flowering nutes and decreasing veg nutes as weeks go on. Supplementing with cool bloom as well. hydro set up in a GH bucket.

like I said I am a total nube first plant ever. Totally realize HPS is the way to go for a commercial grow or a grower with alot of freedom. I am constrained by space/heat and concealability, so I chose LED to get by. It has been a fun hobby so far and I have enjoyed the interaction with you guys thus far.

 

[curious.george]

Mind if I ask what type of LED you use? Brand? Watts?

90w UFO from high tech garden.
6 50w/48w red/blue panels off ebay from led wholesalers $99 this is my favorite LED light for the price.
4 14w all blue panels from led wholsalers
1 16w blue led spotlight from led wholsalers
2 14w all red panels from high tech garden (these are useless)

Also, what do you use for flowering?

Its actually really crazy, I have 1 400w HPS. I have the UFO in there now and 4 t5's and 4 or 5 40w CLF's. The buds under the HPS are way nicer than the others.

Btw, nice to see a fellow open minded individual that isn't dying to throw stones at a brand new peice of technology that hasn't been finely tuned just yet.

I people would not be so in to bashing LED's if the people who sell them did not lie about the efficiency. If they were honest and did not clame that 90w LED = 400w HPS people would be more open minded.

I am using the Grow Panel 40 watt with the 10mm LEDs. I started flowering 12 hours on/off and have been modifying the GH nutes per some recipe I found increasing flowering nutes and decreasing veg nutes as weeks go on. Supplementing with cool bloom as well. hydro set up in a GH bucket.

like I said I am a total nube first plant ever. Totally realize HPS is the way to go for a commercial grow or a grower with alot of freedom. I am constrained by space/heat and concealability, so I chose LED to get by. It has been a fun hobby so far and I have enjoyed the interaction with you guys thus far.

 

[jgorbin]

Ok guys, heres the latest. The buds are growing, very crystally and hard. Smell awesome. My light is the 40 watt Glow Panel w 10mm LEDs. Thought it said Grow but old tired eyes mislead me. It is a Glow Panel. $140 job made in china.

I moved the light a little further cause the 2" proximity was singing the little white hairs. Raised it to around 4-5" and the buds grew taller this week. That could be as a result of the maturity too.??

Using Gh Products in a GH hydro bucket with kool bloom being used in flowering.

I tried the t5 flourescents early on but the closet temp got too hot so this is why I am trying to make the LEds work. I mounted the T5 Fixture in my garage. Nice Light. I am sure not the same as I could do with HPS but I just don"t have the space.

this has been fun guys.

So I guess i got the slow tractor pulling the field

 

[curious.george]

Ok guys, heres the latest. The buds are growing, very crystally and hard. Smell awesome. My light is the 40 watt Glow Panel w 10mm LEDs. Thought it said Grow but old tired eyes mislead me. It is a Glow Panel. $140 job made in china.

I moved the light a little further cause the 2" proximity was singing the little white hairs. Raised it to around 4-5" and the buds grew taller this week. That could be as a result of the maturity too.??

Using Gh Products in a GH hydro bucket with kool bloom being used in flowering.

I tried the t5 flourescents early on but the closet temp got too hot so this is why I am trying to make the LEds work. I mounted the T5 Fixture in my garage. Nice Light. I am sure not the same as I could do with HPS but I just don"t have the space.

this has been fun guys.

So I guess i got the slow tractor pulling the field

I have similar buds growing under my UFO, really leafy and not dense, small buds. They have plenty of crystals.

Here is the thing, how would 400w of LED in a small space compare to HPS. I mean we are always testing small wattage, so we have the slow tractor. But what about a fast tractor made of the new engine. I was thinking of making a 6 sided box out of 50w panels to cram 150w in to 1.5 square feet. That is a lot of light in a small space. I was thinking of trying and determining if its the spectrum or intensity of the bud.

Another thought is on DNA, I used to buy this pot that had little tiny buds and lots of leaf, It had so many crystals on the leaf that it was the best pot I ever smoked. If we had those genetics maybe we could grow small amounts of killer bud?


so many questions, glad I have my HPS so that I can ask them stoned.

 

[Jonus]

The question then would be how could you put 400watts of LEDs into a small space. Changing from a 250 watt HPS to a 600 is just a matter of changing bulb and ballist, but for LEDs there isnt a more powerful version of a lamp that fits into the same space.

So taking the 50 watt Glow lamp, assuming its like 20cm x 20cm, to get 400watts of it you end up with 8 of them, not in the one spot but spread out over a greater area. This doesnt give you more lumens per square foot of light as you would changing from a 250watt HPS to a 600 watt HPS, just means the same foot candle power spread over a wider area.

If the LED gods can come up with a version that outputs twice the amount of lumens at around the same wattage then LEDs would be feasible for budding, at the moment they arent although I did describe somewhere else how you could make use of a scrog system/Sudden Impact to maximize the budding points under your LED light. Sudden Impact creates more budding points and the SCROG will give your LED light a flatter area to light.

Buds will still be small, but there will be more of them and they will receive even light. Other than that Im waiting for more powerful LEDs before trying to bud again with one.

 

[ccanine25]

my leds are sitting ON MY PLANT giving it crazy amounts of llight everywhere. Since there is really no heat they dont burn. Im starting week 4 of veg and i have 0 stretching, amazing growth, and just my soil problems (because im new).

got my lights from htggrowsupply.com under LEDS i got the 5 pack of blues, im gonna get 10 red for flowering.

I encircle the plant with the lights and keep one on top

but for flowering im def gonna add some T5s, you need full spectrum sometimes to get great results

 

[curious.george]

So taking the 50 watt Glow lamp, assuming its like 20cm x 20cm, to get 400watts of it you end up with 8 of them, not in the one spot but spread out over a greater area. This doesnt give you more lumens per square foot of light as you would changing from a 250watt HPS to a 600 watt HPS, just means the same foot candle power spread over a wider area.

I was thinking of a box that would be 40cm x 20cm x 20cm. It would have 8 panels, 2 on top, 6 on the sides. The plants would have the bottom 6 inches totally unlit and the top 18 inches would fill the box. That way you put 400w of LED power in a small space, make sense, no?

I am GOD again
haha, I kill me

 

[Jonus]

That would give you the maximum amount of lumens per square foot onto your plants for sure. But again if the total output of your lamp is say 4000 lumens of red and blue light, then all you are delivering is 4000 lumens all over your plants. Or in your case, plant.

Apart from defeating the whole idea that LEDs save power... even in using 400 watts of LEDs you are still not delivering 10,000 lumens per square foot of 'light' to your plants needed to grow big bud.

It is true that 70% of light emitted by HPS lighting is not consumed in the process of photosynthesis, that is one claim made by LED manufacturers that is not a lie, but the bit they are either naive about, or being dishonest about, is that the plant does actually use that wasted light in a strange twist.

If that wasted light is being blasted at those plants at 10,000 lumens per square foot, then the plant reacts to it by trying to build resistance against the light intensity. That resistance results in bigger bud, and more resin to protect the plant against the light.

But in saying that I am not saying you shouldn't try it, just giving you my theory on the matter. The proof is always in the pudding, if you manage to get huge whooping buds off the plant then we are right where you would be if you used a 400 watt HPS.

Apart from the cost, 400 watts of LED would be cooler I guess, less heat = less cooling = less fans etc.

 

[curious.george]

That would give you the maximum amount of lumens per square foot onto your plants for sure. But again if the total output of your lamp is say 4000 lumens of red and blue light, then all you are delivering is 4000 lumens all over your plants. Or in your case, plant.

Apart from defeating the whole idea that LEDs save power... even in using 400 watts of LEDs you are still not delivering 10,000 lumens per square foot of 'light' to your plants needed to grow big bud.

It is true that 70% of light emitted by HPS lighting is not consumed in the process of photosynthesis, that is one claim made by LED manufacturers that is not a lie, but the bit they are either naive about, or being dishonest about, is that the plant does actually use that wasted light in a strange twist.

If that wasted light is being blasted at those plants at 10,000 lumens per square foot, then the plant reacts to it by trying to build resistance against the light intensity. That resistance results in bigger bud, and more resin to protect the plant against the light.

But in saying that I am not saying you shouldn't try it, just giving you my theory on the matter. The proof is always in the pudding, if you manage to get huge whooping buds off the plant then we are right where you would be if you used a 400 watt HPS.

Apart from the cost, 400 watts of LED would be cooler I guess, less heat = less cooling = less fans etc.

I hear what you are saying, and all the math about lumens and stuff is something I could probably do because I use a lot of higher math at work, but I am sick of math, and have learned one thing with all my math experience, that even the best make simple mistakes that through the equation real world results totally off. So my feeling is trying is the only way to be sure.

I forget the details on lumens and stuff. What is your understanding, if something produces 4000 lumes, 2 of them still produce 4000?? Is that right, and what is the idea/math behind it. I thought if you could somehow magically put the 2 lights in the exact same space it would be 8000 not 4000. Any details you have would help, since I AM going to do this expariment. (dont worry, I already spent the money on the panels and my head stash comes from floro's and HPS today). I actually need the panels in the summer because my I veg with 5 hours of HPS and 24 of LED dur to heat, but I could bud out a plant before then, I took to many clones so why the fuck not.

 

[Jonus]

The usual math may not apply so much to LEDs because of how directional they are. HPS light has a tendency to fill the room it is in due to the shape of the bulbs and the shape of the gas tube etc. So adding more and more say 600 watt HPSs into a grow area will raise the lumens per square foot with each lamp added.

LEDs on the otherhand are directional or fairly directional depending if the type you are using has focussers on them. So then it comes down to purposefully overlapping your light onto the same area in order to increase the lumens per square foot. Just adding in more LED lamps to cover a greater area of plants will still only result in say 4000 lumens per square foot, but of course, 4000 lumens over a wider area.

The next thing that doesnt work the same as standard HID lighting is the way light diminishes under LED lights. From my testing I found that light did not diminish within the first 13 inches of the LED but dropped off considerably in lumens after that. Whereas if you held a light meter under an HPS lamp you can see the attenuation of light the further you move it away below the lamp.

So typically a 400 watt HPS will output 53,000 lumens in total is placed one foot above the canopy, covering an area of 3 foot x 2 foot = 53,000 / (3 x 2)
= 10600 lumens per square foot at the plant canopy.

Whereas a 112 watt LED lamp whose dimensions are 2 foot x 2.5 foot full of LEDs outputting 4000 lumens per square foot if placed one foot above the canopy is giving 4000 lumens per square foot to that canopy top but only covering an area of 2.5 foot x 3.5 foot due to how directional the LED light is.

Thats the difference, a small long HPS bulb spreads it light out, LEDs are directional, which is why I decided to get a 600mm x 800mm board and cover it with LED panels with my new setup. In total there are 14 panels with around 3800 x 5mm LEDs and burning about 200 watts in power.

When its done Ill post some picks, and good luck on yours.

 

[curious.george]

The usual math may not apply so much to LEDs because of how directional they are. HPS light has a tendency to fill the room it is in due to the shape of the bulbs and the shape of the gas tube etc. So adding more and more say 600 watt HPSs into a grow area will raise the lumens per square foot with each lamp added.

LEDs on the otherhand are directional or fairly directional depending if the type you are using has focussers on them. So then it comes down to purposefully overlapping your light onto the same area in order to increase the lumens per square foot. Just adding in more LED lamps to cover a greater area of plants will still only result in say 4000 lumens per square foot, but of course, 4000 lumens over a wider area.

The next thing that doesnt work the same as standard HID lighting is the way light diminishes under LED lights. From my testing I found that light did not diminish within the first 13 inches of the LED but dropped off considerably in lumens after that. Whereas if you held a light meter under an HPS lamp you can see the attenuation of light the further you move it away below the lamp.

So typically a 400 watt HPS will output 53,000 lumens in total is placed one foot above the canopy, covering an area of 3 foot x 2 foot = 53,000 / (3 x 2)
= 10600 lumens per square foot at the plant canopy.

Whereas a 112 watt LED lamp whose dimensions are 2 foot x 2.5 foot full of LEDs outputting 4000 lumens per square foot if placed one foot above the canopy is giving 4000 lumens per square foot to that canopy top but only covering an area of 2.5 foot x 3.5 foot due to how directional the LED light is.

Thats the difference, a small long HPS bulb spreads it light out, LEDs are directional, which is why I decided to get a 600mm x 800mm board and cover it with LED panels with my new setup. In total there are 14 panels with around 3800 x 5mm LEDs and burning about 200 watts in power.

When its done Ill post some picks, and good luck on yours.

but don't all your calculations centre around
"112 watt LED lamp whose dimensions are 2 foot x 2.5 foot full of LEDs outputting 4000"
where did you get this? It seems for example that a 90w UFO is putting its light in a 8inch circle? I have not seen these 112 watt led lamp, but I have seen these 112 led panels all over, and those basically are the sulkiest LED's on the market. So if the lumen calculation was cut and paste from another post it is quite possible they were talking about those super-crapola LED lights?

 

[Jonus]

The 112 Watt lamp is one I built myself from 7 of these layed out
http://www.homegrownlights.com/12Vled.html

The new one I am building is 14 of these
http://www.homegrownlights.com/14wled.html

Each one of those arrays has 272 x 5mm ultra bright LEDs.

So I base my calculations above on the light I have and therefore the light I know the results of from my experience.

 

[curious.george]

The 112 Watt lamp is one I built myself from 7 of these layed out
http://www.homegrownlights.com/12Vled.html

The new one I am building is 14 of these
http://www.homegrownlights.com/14wled.html

Each one of those arrays has 272 x 5mm ultra bright LEDs.

So I base my calculations above on the light I have and therefore the light I know the results of from my experience.

Ohh, I see, 16w times 7. I get it now. So each LED uses roughly .06w. The thing is it seems to me that 1 0.5w LED produces way more light than 10 0.05w LED. My understanding is the high wastage LED's are more efficient because they are designed to light things. That IT smart bar which appears to be the best uses 3w LED's.